Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

[Paul Trejo]

Paul Trejo,

You write:

"What evidence do you have to claim that Oswald "doesn't appear to be materialistic" or that he "doesn't appear to have much use for formal education"?[/size]

As to being materialistic, he didn't own anything of value, had little money, and seems not to have had any desire for worldly things.[/size]

By formal education I mean the sort of instruction given in high school and college.[/size]

Well, Jon, you're presuming that because Lee Harvey Oswald was poverty stricken, that he CHOSE to be poverty-stricken, and that he ENJOYED being poverty-stricken.

You're jumping to a conclusion.

Ron Lewis claims to have known Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans during summer of 1963 in his 1993 book, FLASHBACK: The Untold Story of Lee Harvey Oswald, and he says that Oswald complained about being poor. For example, Oswald complained that he could hardly afford to buy his wife her basic undergarments.

Oswald was worried about money since he had another baby on the way, and he could never seem to hold down a steady job.

Also, Larry Hancock makes a good point about college education -- Lee Oswald did apply to attend at least one college in his life. Lee Oswald wanted more out of life than his mother's poverty could afford. It's very hard to get that first step up out of poverty.

By the way, for anybody who's seen the first video interviews of Marina Oswald in late 1963 and early 1964, one is struck by the horror of her teeth -- Oswald couldn't afford a simple dentist. This was not by choice. According to Ron Lewis, this really bothered Lee Harvey Oswald.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 25, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Thats a big leap Paul, but typical of you. Banister and Ferrie invited Oswald to NOLA because they knew he had tried to kill Walker.

Then 'they' used Phillips to get Oswald to think he would finally get a real job.

When you write this stuff you know we will catch it, but you do so anyway because you are so enamored of your theory that you want casual passersby on this site to be sure to read it from you first. Then you suggest that Jon is 'guessing' when he opines about Oswald.

Well, Paul B., I'm not GUESSING with my theory about Guy Banister's KNOWLEDGE of Lee Harvey Oswald's attempted murder of Ex-General Edwin Walker.

My theory is the Unified Field theory of the JFK murder, in which I make an effort to include all of the first-person accounts from 1962-1963 that have ever been printed in the past fifty years on the personnel of the JFK murder.

It is on the basis of this effort that I claim that Guy Banister and David Ferrie KNEW with certainty that Lee Harvey Oswald tried to kill Edwin Walker.

What book out there came up with this idea? I'm speaking of Ron Lewis and his 1993 book, FLASHBACK: The Untold Story of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Although many JFK researchers have panned this book, some JFK researchers have accepted it gratefully. Oliver Stone, for example, made Ron Lewis one of his advisors for his 1991 movie, JFK (because Oliver Stone knew about Ron Lewis before Lewis published his book).

So, Jon is indeed guessing when he suggests that Oswald liked being poor, but I'm basing my complex theory on many eyewitnesses of various degrees.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 25, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Mark Knight]

In 1963, it was possible to own a running, driving automobile for as little as $25. $125 would buy a decent [but not recent] ride. Buy-here, pay-here lots are nothing new; many in my local area have been operating since the mid-1950's, and I'm sure that if Oswald had truly WANTED to own a car, he could have. High school kids with part-time jobs owned cars; why not an adult working full-time?

Owning a car means there's a "marker" out there with your name attached to it in some government file from the moment you license it; with no car, a man can become as elusive as he chooses. I rather think that the fact that Oswald didn't own a car was less about what he could afford, and more about his desire to be "untraceable," or at least as much as possible. Does that dovetail with a desire to be a "real-life double-nought spy" [apologies to Jethro Bodine]?

You make the call.

[B. A. Copeland]

On the subject of the Oswald double, it is indeed confounding and confusing, as it would be designed to be but honestly tell me....honestly, 6 years apart, does anyone honestly believe these two are one and the same person??:

Edited January 25, 2015 by B. A. Copeland

[Paul Trejo]

In 1963, it was possible to own a running, driving automobile for as little as $25. $125 would buy a decent [but not recent] ride. Buy-here, pay-here lots are nothing new; many in my local area have been operating since the mid-1950's, and I'm sure that if Oswald had truly WANTED to own a car, he could have. High school kids with part-time jobs owned cars; why not an adult working full-time?

Owning a car means there's a "marker" out there with your name attached to it in some government file from the moment you license it; with no car, a man can become as elusive as he chooses. I rather think that the fact that Oswald didn't own a car was less about what he could afford, and more about his desire to be "untraceable," or at least as much as possible. Does that dovetail with a desire to be a "real-life double-nought spy" [apologies to Jethro Bodine]?

You make the call.

No, Mark, I think you miss the point. Howard Hunt, a "full-fledged" CIA Officer, could afford a new Ford Galaxie 500XL Skyliner for $3,350, or a new Buick Riviera for $4,300.

Howard Hunt (and David Atlee Phillips, and David Morales) had a salary -- and so did Michael Paine, Volkmar Schmidt and George De Mohrenschildt. The odd man out was Lee Harvey Oswald, who had no salary.

Of all the people Oswald interacted with in 1963, he showed more friendship and warmth to George De Mohrenschildt than to anybody else. George was born rich -- his family had an mammoth landed Estate in Russia before the Russian Revolution kicked them off. This guy was Oswald's best friend in 1962-1963. Marina testifies to Oswald's admiration and respect for George De Mohrenschildt.

It makes no sense to argue that Lee Harvey Oswald was comfortable or happy being dirt-poor. He wanted out, but he didn't see how to get out. He complained bitterly how a welder (his first job in the USA, for example) made only $1 hourly (that is, $2,000 annually). He could see plainly that no matter how hard and long he worked, he could never afford anything more in life than some ratty apartment and a used car, with that sort of job.

Oswald quit that job flat -- and his open complaint about it was the low pay. In Russia this was not so much of a problem, because all of his neighbors made the same low wage and lived in small apartments. (In fact, as an American special case, Oswald was allowed to stay in the best apartment house in Minsk -- the envy of all of Marina's friends.) But in Texas this was a big problem, because men his age were making $10,000 annually and even more, as engineers.

Michael Paine was one. Volkmar Schmidt was another. George De Mohrenschildt was a college professor, and made at least that much. Besides that, these men were already investing in stocks and business speculations. Lee Harvey Oswald was being left in the dust. He didn't like that. He complained about it.

Oswald's poverty was infamous in Dallas -- when he quit his welding job and moved to Dallas to work at an advanced photographic laboratory (Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall) with the help of George De Mohrenschildt, he was also introduced to the Russian Exile community in Dallas. They immediately took up collections for clothing and cash to help out this "destitute" couple.

This was when George Bouhe began showering Marina with clothes (according to Jeanne De Mohrenschildt) and Lee Oswald became jealous for the first time in their marriage, and he began beating her. (It is noteworthy that he never beat her before they moved to Dallas, and he never beat her after they moved out of Dallas).

Oswald's concern for more money is clear from the first-person histories -- if we bother to read them anymore.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 25, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Stephen Roy]

I've mentioned this before to Paul Trejo, but to no avail, so I'll just say it to any readers: To the extent that his theories are based on "Flashback" by Ron Lewis, it is likely that Lewis's claims of knowing Oswald etc. are untrue. I have researched the New Orleans case for years and I've looked specifically into this, and this is my professional opinion.

[Thomas Graves]

On the subject of the Oswald double, it is indeed confounding and confusing, as it would be designed to be but honestly tell me....honestly, 6 years apart, does anyone honestly believe these two are one and the same person??:

[...]

Yes, I for one.

The photos were taken several year apart. One photo is in color, the other is in black and white. I the color one he a smiling juvenile, in the black and white one he is a serious-looking adult. In the color one, he has his head tilted back, in the black and white one he doesn't. In the color snapshot he has lots of spectral highlights on his face and "red eye", in the black and white one his face has no spectral highlights and eyes are normal. In the color one he's standing in front of a dark background, in the black and white one he's standing in front of a light background. Etc, etc.

Same ears. same nose, same eyebrows, same small mouth. Same guy.

--Tommy

PS I'm sure it's already been noted that FBI agent John Fain interviewed Marguerite Oswald on May 12, 1960, (seven and one-half months after Oswald had "defected") and claimed that Marguerite described Oswald as being (a Robert Webster-like) " 5'10", 165 pounds, blue eyes."

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11090&relPageId=12

In reality, Oswald was 5' 9.5" and weighed only about 135 lbs (131 lbs at autopsy), and had hazel-gray eyes.

Marguerite said after the assassination that her son, Lee Harvey Oswald had never weighed more than 150 pounds in his life.

What's interesting is that an unidentified "witness" allegedly told Dallas Police Inspector Sawyer fifteen minutes after the assassination that the assassin he'd supposedly seen, from street level, in the sixth-floor window was 5'10", 165 pounds. Just like Robert Webster. (To the great credit of the "witness", at least he didn't say that the assassin was 5' 9 1/2" and 166 pounds and had blue eyes. LOL)

The question is: Who fed FBI agent Fain (and Sawyer's 11/22/63 "witness") with Webster's physical description in lieu of Oswald's?

James Jesus Angleton?

David Sanchez Morales?

David Atlee Phillips?

The exceptionally mysterious CIA officer, William Kent?

?

--Tommy

Edited January 17, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Jon G. Tidd]

Paul Trejo,

Do you believe Oswald wanted the "good life"? Had a desire for more than he had?

[Thomas Graves]

On the subject of the Oswald double, it is indeed confounding and confusing, as it would be designed to be but honestly tell me....honestly, 6 years apart, does anyone honestly believe these two are one and the same person??:

[...]

Yes, I for one.

The photos were taken several year apart. One photo is in color, the other is in black and white. I the color one he a smiling juvenile, in the black and white one he is a serious-looking adult. In the color one, he has his head tilted back, in the black and white one he doesn't. In the color snapshot he has lots of spectral highlights on his face and "red eye", in the black and white one his face has no spectral highlights and eyes are normal. In the color one he's standing in front of a dark background, in the black and white one he's standing in front of a light background. Etc, etc.

Same ears. same nose, same eyebrows, same small mouth. Same guy.

--Tommy

PS I'm sure it's already been noted that FBI agent John Fain interviewed Marguerite Oswald on April 23, 1960 , (which was incorporated in his May 12, 1960, report) and claimed in the report that Marguerite had described Oswald as being (a Robert Webster-like) " 5'10", 165 pounds, light brown / wavy hair, blue eyes."

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11090&relPageId=12

In reality, Oswald was only 5'9" and weighed about 140 lbs (131 lbs at his autopsy), had hazel-gray eyes, and his hair was medium brown and straight.

Marguerite said after the assassination that Oswald had never weighed more than 150 pounds in his life.

What's interesting is that an unidentified "witness" allegedly told Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer fifteen minutes after the assassination that the assassin he'd supposedly seen, from street level, in the sixth-floor window was 5'10", 165 pounds. Hmmm. Just like Robert Webster. (To the great credit of the "witness", at least he didn't say that the assassin was 5' 10 1/4" and 166 pounds and had wavy hair and blue eyes. LOL)

The question is, who fed 5/12/60 FBI agent Fain (and 11/22/63 Dallas Police Inspector J.H. Sawyer) with Robert Webster's physical description in lieu of Oswald's?

--Tommy

PS Yes I know Bill Simpich talks all about Oswald and Webster in his great "State Secret - Chapter I: The Double Dangle"

https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/State_Secret_Chapter1

edited and bumped

PS a note for Professor Trejo: A Marxist, although he or she may believe in the philosophical / economic / social theory of "dialectical materialism," is not necessarily "materialistic" (as in wanting a flat screen in every room, a couple of yachts and a new Rolls Royce every year). D'oh.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Brancato]

Ron Lewis is Trejo's proof for his claim that Banister and Ferrie invited Oswald to NO because they knew he had shot at Walker, and thus had the goods and could use him in anti-Castro operations.

Paul - on what basis do you choose to believe Lewis, and ignore JVB? Both are self proclaimed eye witnesses. It makes more sense to dismiss both of their stories, because there are other, more rational explanations for Oswald's actions in NO and MC than to believe he was being blackmailed. I don't recall anything in Oliver Stone's movie JFK that reflects the Lewis story. Refresh my memory if you do.

Btw, I have no trouble believing that Oswald wanted more money, or that he was jealous of those around him that did.

[Jon G. Tidd]

If Oswald wanted more money, if he seriously wanted more money and thought all the time about getting and having more money, two things are clear: [1] He didn't do anything obvious to achieve his goal. [2] He would have been easy to manipulate.

Something that gives away spies is that sometimes they live beyond their means. Oswald so far as I know never appears to have lived beyond his means. Except perhaps on his trip through Helsinki to Russia. In the U.S. he appears to me always to have lived a bare bones existence. Indicating to me he had no secret source of income. Telling me it's unlikely he was anyone's intelligence agent.

Please let me know if I'm missing something about Oswald's finances.

[Paul Trejo]

I've mentioned this before to Paul Trejo, but to no avail, so I'll just say it to any readers: To the extent that his theories are based on "Flashback" by Ron Lewis, it is likely that Lewis's claims of knowing Oswald etc. are untrue. I have researched the New Orleans case for years and I've looked specifically into this, and this is my professional opinion.

Well, Stephen, you disagree with Ron Lewis, but you don't provide much detail.

I regard part of Ron Lewis' story as historically valid -- although not all of it. Much like Harry Dean -- I reject, for example, Harry Dean's opinions about the LDS.

I do use discernment when I choose who and what to believe. For example, I accept all of Marina Oswald's sworn testimony -- and I'm aware that many on this Forum flatly refuse to do so.

Ron Lewis mainly claims to have met and interacted with Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans in the summer of 1963. Is that really impossible? Ron Lewis provides his address at the time -- not far from Oswald's address. Ron Lewis provides his work-location at the time -- walking distance from his address.

Also, Ron Lewis' walking route to work passed directly by the Reily Coffee Company and also by Alba's Crescent City parking garage, where Lee Oswald admittedly hung out.

Is it really impossible that Ron Lewis met and interacted with Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans in the summer of 1963?

OK, it is possible that Ron Lewis exaggerated the depth and extent of their "relationship", but even at its most dramatic, Ron Lewis' description of their "relationship" was never very deep in the first place.

Certainly I am skeptical of Ron Lewis' claim that he was "Oswald's best friend" (even excluding George De Mohrenschildt). Lee Oswald told Marina Oswald next to nothing about his day to day interactions with people. He would quit a job, for example, and not tell Marina for WEEKS as he continued to leave the house early in the morning, and come back in the evening.

So, Lee Oswald knew lots of people in New Orleans, and he was secretive about it. I doubt that Oswald told Ron Lewis about EVERYTHING he did (although Ron suspected he might have), yet I find no reason to disbelieve the basic parameters of Ron Lewis' claim -- that he met and interacted with Lee Harvey Oswald for a few weeks in New Orleans.

If you are doubting the full body of Ron Lewis' claims, Stephen, then I agree with you. Ron Lewis exaggerates on occasion. But if you are doubting ALL of Ron Lewis' claims, Stephen, then I would appreciate seeing the reasons why -- in detail.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 27, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Paul Trejo,

Do you believe Oswald wanted the "good life"? Had a desire for more than he had?

Yes, Jon, and my basis is the account by Marina Oswald and others about Lee Harvey Oswald quitting his job at Leslie Welding Company. Lee started that job in late July 1962, and quit that job in late September 1962 -- about 12 weeks later.

His average pay was about $48 weekly -- somewhere around the minimum wage, though he did work some overtime. His complaint about the job was that the pay was too low, and he saw no chance for advancement.

There is more, Jon, but that single case is clear evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald had a desire for more than he had.

Regards,

--Paul

[Paul Trejo]

Ron Lewis is Trejo's proof for his claim that Banister and Ferrie invited Oswald to NO because they knew he had shot at Walker, and thus had the goods and could use him in anti-Castro operations.

Paul - on what basis do you choose to believe Lewis, and ignore JVB? Both are self proclaimed eye witnesses. It makes more sense to dismiss both of their stories, because there are other, more rational explanations for Oswald's actions in NO and MC than to believe he was being blackmailed. I don't recall anything in Oliver Stone's movie JFK that reflects the Lewis story. Refresh my memory if you do.

Btw, I have no trouble believing that Oswald wanted more money, or that he was jealous of those around him that did.

Well, Paul B., I rarely use the word, "proof," and I don't think anybody should put that word into my mouth without my permission.

Ron Lewis claims that in his interactions with Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans, they discussed Ex-General Walker.

Ron Lewis had no other motivation for saying that, to my knowledge, than to share a memory.

If Ron Lewis wanted to invent a story to impress JFK researchers, he would probably have invented a story about the CIA, which is what most JFK researchers seem to want to hear and talk about.

I find it interesting that Ron Lewis -- taken at his minimal claims -- says that Lee Harvey Oswald spoke about Ex-General Walker in the context of Guy Banister.

As for Judyth Vary-Baker (JVB), since you asked, I don't really doubt that she met Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans -- she was there while he was there. She worked at Reily Coffee Company when Oswald did.

I believe they met.

Yet like other accounts of that period, I believe JVB exaggerates her "relationship" with Oswald. I'm not saying that they didn't have a fling -- I'm only saying that she can only account for a few weeks of Lee Oswald's life, and that doesn't really amount to a full-fledged "relationship" in my book.

As for much of her story -- it sounds like fiction to me -- the very sort of CIA rumors that most JFK researchers like to hear and talk about. I'm not impressed.

As for Oliver Stone -- I don't know if he included Ron's ideas anywhere in his story -- except to speak about the large bulk of weapons stored at Guy Banister's office. Ron Lewis claims to have seen it, and even to have hauled some of it.

But I do know that Oliver Stone had Ron Lewis on his set for part of the filming of "JFK" in 1991.

Finally, Paul B., thanks for chiming in on the question of Oswald wanting more money, and being jealous of others who had it.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

Paul - just so I understand (since I have not read Lewis' book) since Lewis mentioned Walker in connection with Banister, and since you think that Walker knew that it was Oswald who shot at him immediately after the incident (something he claimed for most of his life after Nov22, 1963, but did not mention before that, and did not mention to the WC) you therefore use Lewis' recollection as support for your theory. I gather Lewis never suggested this himself.

Have you read the rest of the PDS article that goes into Otepka and his right wing protectors? I thought it interesting because the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee, or whatever they were called (Joe Mccarthy, and his latter day cohorts Eastland, Sourwine, Dodd, Smathers) intersects with your JBS Minutemen conspirators often.

Just to repeat something I have said to you many times - I don't dispute your basic group of ultra-right conspirators out of hand, nor do I think that latter day confessions should be ignored. I just think you overstate your case and repeat it too often here, and you don't connect enough dots between these rogues and ex-military ex-FBI, and the folks at the top of those pyramids, like Hoover, Dulles, Angleton, Helms. Your explanation for the coverup doesn't add up for me. Please don't repeat it all in response.