Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

[Jon G. Tidd]

Thomas Graves @ post #297:

You write:

"Were Oswald's FPCC activities part of the set up?"

A critical question. The answer is yes if someone or some organization manipulated Oswald to hand out leaflets in NOLA. The answer is no otherwise. One possibility is that Oswald leafletted all on his own and thereby set himself up.

"Did Oswald go to the Cuban Consulate and the Russian Embassy in Mexico City on September 27, 1963, and then back to the Russian Embassy with his revolver on September 28, trying to get a Cuban transit visa ?"

In my opinion, Oswald did not go to Mexico City. There are no facts to convince me otherwise.

"Was Ruth Paine's helping Oswald get work at the TSBD part of the set up?"

Excellent writing BTW. Especially the possessive preceding the gerund.

This is another critical question. I have to say yes. Ruth Paine controlled Oswald's wife and his possessions. In helping him get a job at the TSBD she appears to have closed the circle by moving Oswald, as if he were a chess piece.

But maybe Ruth and Michael were being used. Michael's alleged call to Ruth on 11-22-63 suggests to me neither he nor Ruth was taken aback by the assassination. It also suggests Michael and Ruth believed Oswald killed JFK. But also that there was some party behind Oswald who was responsible for the deed. I'm inclined to believe neither Michael nor Ruth knew who killed JFK.

[Thomas Graves]

Jon - I welcome your attempts to answer your very valid questions. Who set up Oswald, and why? Why is the coverup ongoing?

I'm not sure what Jon G. Tidd thinks about anything (except that Oswald was an "Odd Duck"), but I guess the rest of us are we're all pretty much agreed that Oswald was set up to be the JFK assassination "patsy."

Questions:

Was Oswald directed / encouraged by ex-FBI agent Banister, etc, to start a New Orleans FPCC chapter as part of the set up?

In Mexico City did Oswald really go to the Cubans and Russians on September 27, 1963, and then back to the Russians (with his revolver) the next day, ostensibly trying to get a Cuban visa? If so, was he directed to do so as part of the set up?

Was Ruth Paine's helping Oswald get work at the TSBD part of the set up?

What did Oswald think he was doing at the TSBD on November 22, 1963?

Is Larry Hancock right when he says Oswald was planning on walking out the back door at noontime and going to the Texas Theater to meet someone whom he thought was pro-Castro?

etc, etc

And now for something that's been bugging me recently:

With whom was "Silvia Duran" speaking Spanish regarding the home phone number of "(Raul) Aparicio" -- in reality CIA agent Daniel Flores masquerading as a Cuban Cultural Attache -- while "Lee Oswald" was standing next to her, waiting to speak on the phone with someone in the Russian Embassy on Saturday, September 28, when the Cuban Consulate was supposed to be closed? Why would the impostors embellish the scenario by interjecting Aparicio's name and phone number like that? To let the CIA know that the "Aparicio" operation was blown? To make the Oswald impersonation somehow seem more "realistic" in spite of the fact that it happened on a day when the Cuban Consulate was supposed to be closed? Why were there three people in the Cuban Consulate when it was supposed to be closed? Was Silvia having another orgy? Or were there only two impostors there that Saturday -- "Duran" and a native Spanish-speaking "Oswald"?

Were the Russians with whom "Duran" and "Oswald" spoke over the phone on that Saturday impostors, too? What was was going on? Were the Cubans or Russians running their own "mole hunt?" Was the CIA trying to fool itself? Was that part of the set up?

--Tommy

"Well, Tommy...

Point 1.0.....

Point 1.1.....

Point 1.11..."

ad nauseum

edited and bumped

Edited February 16, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Thomas, two points to consider...

First, if Nagell is accepted as a source, Oswald was already quite aware that the fellows he had been in contact with in New Orleans were not true Castro agents but rather exiles pretending to be from Castro...the same view

comes independently from Martino. Unfortunately while we have good reason to think Oswald was in contact with exiles in Dallas, possibly as a dangle to exile gun buys, we have no idea of exactly what

story lines had been fed to him from whom in those last days before Nov. 22. If Martino is accepted Oswald had still been in touch with at least one of the guys from New Orleans - or someone representing

him who could verify that, but he may have been talking to other exiles as well...ones not masquerading. That why I expressed my view that Oswald was planning on leaving work and meeting with someone at the theatre, but any guess as to exactly what' they had told him and what he expected to do is just that...a guess, on my part at least.

Second, on your Mexico City question, a big part of the answer lies in where the taping of the impersonation call was done. The CIA had local taps on consulate phones, but they also had a much broader tap

on both the Cuban facilities and the Soviet embassy as well as other locations based on using equipment at an actual telephone switching center. There are lots of questions about the tapes made there and

who had access to them, its possible both the FBI and Mexican intel was getting some copies. The local taps from the consulate fed into CIA safe houses, where local teams (trained by AMOTS from JMWAVE)

ran recorders. The interesting thing is that a tap like that can run both ways, you can monitor lines being picked up or you can pick up the line yourself given the nature of the tap....you would only do that on

a weekend of course to ensure nobody picks up the line and hears you on it...that would sort of blow the whole game.

Bill has this much fresher in his mind so he would be better to comment....we worked the tap/tape issue at length given my prior telephone switching background. I don't believe we were able to actually

determine where the call was taped, locally or at the telco switch. However, since both the Russians and Cubans were being taped, the tape could have been recorded either off the Russian line

or the Cuban line....don't know that we could tell but Bill should comment.

[Paul Trejo]

Thomas Graves @ post #297 writes:

"Were Oswald's FPCC activities part of the set up?"

A critical question. The answer is yes if someone or some organization manipulated Oswald to hand out leaflets in NOLA. The answer is no otherwise. One possibility is that Oswald leafletted all on his own and thereby set himself up.

"Did Oswald go to the Cuban Consulate and the Russian Embassy in Mexico City on September 27, 1963, and then back to the Russian Embassy with his revolver on September 28, trying to get a Cuban transit visa ?"

In my opinion, Oswald did not go to Mexico City. There are no facts to convince me otherwise.

"Was Ruth Paine's helping Oswald get work at the TSBD part of the set up?"

This is another critical question. I have to say yes. Ruth Paine controlled Oswald's wife and his possessions. In helping him get a job at the TSBD she appears to have closed the circle by moving Oswald, as if he were a chess piece.

But maybe Ruth and Michael were being used. Michael's alleged call to Ruth on 11-22-63 suggests to me neither he nor Ruth was taken aback by the assassination. It also suggests Michael and Ruth believed Oswald killed JFK. But also that there was some party behind Oswald who was responsible for the deed. I'm inclined to believe neither Michael nor Ruth knew who killed JFK.

(1) IMHO, because Jim Garrison already showed that Guy Banister's address was stamped on Lee Oswald's FPCC handbills, we can be confident that Guy Banister and his people (Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Fred Crisman, Thomas Beckham, Carlos Bringuier and Ed Butler) clearly manipulated Lee Harvey Oswald.

(2) We have the Lopez Report which proves that Oswald was in Mexico City, at the Cuban and Soviet Consulates on September 27, 1963, and back to Soviet Consulate with a loaded revolver on September 28, 1963, playing the neurotic again, as he did in the USSR in 1959, when they let him in the country because he (mildly) slashed his own wrists. All the FPCC newspaper clippings he had collected in New Orleans during the summer of 1963 were in his possession in a makeshift "resume."

(3) I doubt that Ruth Paine alone got Oswald the TSBD job -- rather, it was her women's club, through Linnie Mae Randle, sister of the 19 year old Buell Wesley Frazier, who slept on her couch, who worked at the TSBD and who would drive Oswald from and to work on weekends. A conspiracy theory should start with Linnie Mae's husband, Bill Randle, for connections with the DPD, the JBS or the Minutemen. That would cinch it, IMHO. Wesley himself was naive. Ruth was a Quaker and partially naive.

Michael Paine's call to Ruth Paine on 11/22/1963 suggests that they weren't surprised, and "knew who did it" -- Ex-General Edwin Walker -- the man they'd hoped Oswald would hate -- the man whom Oswald failed to kill -- the man whose assassination they had information about back in April and failed to report -- and the man who had now taken control of Lee Harvey Oswald -- at least as a Patsy.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 16, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas, two points to consider...

First, if Nagell is accepted as a source, Oswald was already quite aware that the fellows he had been in contact with in New Orleans were not true Castro agents but rather exiles pretending to be from Castro...the same view

comes independently from Martino. Unfortunately while we have good reason to think Oswald was in contact with exiles in Dallas, possibly as a dangle to exile gun buys, we have no idea of exactly what

story lines had been fed to him from whom in those last days before Nov. 22. If Martino is accepted Oswald had still been in touch with at least one of the guys from New Orleans - or someone representing

him who could verify that, but he may have been talking to other exiles as well...ones not masquerading. That why I expressed my view that Oswald was planning on leaving work and meeting with someone at the theatre, but any guess as to exactly what' they had told him and what he expected to do is just that...a guess, on my part at least.

Second, on your Mexico City question, a big part of the answer lies in where the taping of the impersonation call was done. The CIA had local taps on consulate phones, but they also had a much broader tap

on both the Cuban facilities and the Soviet embassy as well as other locations based on using equipment at an actual telephone switching center. There are lots of questions about the tapes made there and

who had access to them, its possible both the FBI and Mexican intel was getting some copies. The local taps from the consulate fed into CIA safe houses, where local teams (trained by AMOTS from JMWAVE)

ran recorders. The interesting thing is that a tap like that can run both ways, you can monitor lines being picked up or you can pick up the line yourself given the nature of the tap....you would only do that on

a weekend of course to ensure nobody picks up the line and hears you on it...that would sort of blow the whole game.

Bill has this much fresher in his mind so he would be better to comment....we worked the tap/tape issue at length given my prior telephone switching background. I don't believe we were able to actually

determine where the call was taped, locally or at the telco switch. However, since both the Russians and Cubans were being taped, the tape could have been recorded either off the Russian line

or the Cuban line....don't know that we could tell but Bill should comment.

Thanks for the feedback, Larry.

I guess you're saying that although the taping of the September 28 call could have been done from any of several places around Mexico City, the "Duran" and the overly-inquisitive, Spanish-understanding "Oswald" impostors (or better yet a third unnamed Spanish-understanding person who had asked about Raul Aparicio's home phone number!) made the call from Silvia Duran's phone inside the Cuban Consulate on a day when the Consulate was supposed to be closed. Or are you saying that the call itself could have been made from somewhere else? It's interesting that three languages -- Spanish (fluently by "Duran"), English (brokenly? fluently? by "Oswald" and fluently? by a Russian), and Russian (brokenly by "Oswald" and fluently? by a Russian) -- were spoken during that one phone call. A transcriber's nightmare. I wonder if Spanish-speaking Bill Bright (who had monitored Oswald in Russia for SR/6 and who had made sure that John Fain's Webster-like biometrics for Oswald were incorporated in the CIA computerized Registry in 1960) checked to see whether or not the Spanish transcription by the DNS was "accurate"?

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited February 16, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, the call could have been made from someplace else. If the tape was made off the Soviet line at their embassy, you just pick up the incoming call which could come from

anywhere. With the equipment in use then its very doubtful the calling number would be captured so you just know is somebody called....don't know from where.

On the other hand, if the taps on the Cuban building worked the way we think they did, somebody at one of the safe houses could have used their phone to dial out using the

Cuban's number - since the tap was off the Cuban telephone lines it would just look like an outgoing call. Actually if you get just a bit more technical, somebody who knew all

the ins and outs of the tap could intercept the tap itself somewhere in between and do the same thing, again appearing to be the Cuban tel. number.

Unfortunately it means that both Duran and Oswald could have been impersonated - but only by somebody really inside the CIA tap operation who knew all the ins and outs.

What makes that interesting is at the time, with some real quick inquiry on the tapes and calls, the CIA could have figured out how it went down while we cannot

at this distance. You can see if they determined that say both Duran and Oswald were impersonated by somebody, it would literally have thrown them into a panic

since it would have meant a massive compromise at several levels.

As to the languages, I find it puzzling as well, no really good ideas on that I'm afraid.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Larry Hancock

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy, the call could have been made from someplace else. If the tape was made off the Soviet line at their embassy, you just pick up the incoming call which could come from

anywhere. With the equipment in use then its very doubtful the calling number would be captured so you just know is somebody called....don't know from where.

On the other hand, if the taps on the Cuban building worked the way we think they did, somebody at one of the safe houses could have used their phone to dial out using the

Cuban's number - since the tap was off the Cuban telephone lines it would just look like an outgoing call. Actually if you get just a bit more technical, somebody who knew all

the ins and outs of the tap could intercept the tap itself somewhere in between and do the same thing, again appearing to be the Cuban tel. number.

Unfortunately it means that both Duran and Oswald could have been impersonated - but only by somebody really inside the CIA tap operation who knew all the ins and outs.

What makes that interesting is at the time, with some real quick inquiry on the tapes and calls, the CIA could have figured out how it went down while we cannot

at this distance. You can see if they determined that say both Duran and Oswald were impersonated by somebody, it would literally have thrown them into a panic

since it would have meant a massive compromise at several levels.

As to the languages, I find it puzzling as well, no really good ideas on that I'm afraid.

Larry,

Richard Cain and Bill Bright come to mind as people who might have known the LIENVOY / DNS "ins and outs" well enough to be able to orchestrate the September 28 impersonations.

--Tommy

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, would have to look into Bill Bright but I spent a lot of time on Cain and much of what you read about him in MC is urban legend class stuff. He did some limited training in how to place bugs

for the Mexican police but then approached the Agency there offering his services and they took a pass because of background check issues. They shared that with the MC police and as far as I

could tell Cain's actual activities in MC were limited and pretty low level. Simpich has all the documents on how the taps and the tel switch systems were set up and none of that involved Cain.

I think you would definitely be talking about someone within the CIA staff in MC or the trainers from JMWAVE who would have the details on the taps - its something Phillips should certainly

have been aware of ...the other part of the equation is having the background info on Oswald and Duran. I'll leave it to Bill S. to offer a better opinion than I, he's far more up on the CI games

being played in MC at that point in time than I am.

[Paul Trejo]

...If Nagell is accepted as a source, Oswald was already quite aware that the fellows he had been in contact with in New Orleans were not true Castro agents but rather exiles pretending to be from Castro...the same view comes independently from Martino.

Unfortunately while we have good reason to think Oswald was in contact with exiles in Dallas, possibly as a dangle to exile gun buys, we have no idea of exactly what story lines had been fed to him from whom in those last days before Nov. 22.

If Martino is accepted Oswald had still been in touch with at least one of the guys from New Orleans - or someone representing him who could verify that, but he may have been talking to other exiles as well...ones not masquerading.

That why I expressed my view that Oswald was planning on leaving work and meeting with someone at the theatre, but any guess as to exactly what' they had told him and what he expected to do is just that...a guess, on my part at least...

I'd like to try to merge Nagell's and Martino's claims along with those of Harry Dean and see where it leads. For example:

(1.0) If Oswald was already aware that these two guys in NOLA (offering him a JFK Kill plot at Washington DC) were not true Castro agents, but Anti-Castro agents pretending to be Castro agents (as Nagell and Martino both claimed), this lets us infer much.

(1.1) Oswald possibly knew that Fidel Castro didn't want to kill JFK (because the next US President would have been worse). Therefore, these two allegedly Pro-Castro Agents were bogus, because they pretended that Fidel wanted to kill JFK.

(1.2) Besides, Oswald had bigger fish to fry -- he was working for Guy Banister and Clay Shaw, and was making spending cash for his efforts, which were loads of fun, e.g. he was getting his name in the newspaper, plus an appearance on a Radio show, plus an appearance on TV. Also, if he played ball with Guy Banister, he could hope to get a full-time job in the CIA.

(2.0) If Oswald was in contact with Anti-Castro Cuban Exiles in Dallas, Texas as well, then what can we infer from this? Larry, you wonder if Oswald was a dangle to Anti-Castro Gun Runners, but without any guess about the precise scenario. Martino thought Oswald was still in touch with those two guys from NOLA, but also perhaps others more normal in Dallas. So you wonder, Larry, whether Oswald was planning on meeting someone the Texas Theater -- possibly a Cuban Exile -- but without any guess about the precise scenario.

(3.0) At this point I would raise the scenario posed by Harry Dean, and my own theory, to see where it might fit. I'd start with this background: Oswald wasn't thinking about a JFK assassination in 1963 -- he was thinking about a Fidel Castro assassination.

David Atlee Philips was probably involved in NOLA -- hoping that these guys might finally assassinate Fidel Castro -- so he also pretended to Oswald that the CIA would give Oswald a job.

Therefore, Oswald might spy on those two guys in NOLA -- but otherwise he wasn't really interested in them.

(3.1) In mid-September Loran Hall and Larry Howard drove to Louisiana to offer Oswald $500 to accompany them to Mexico City and meet their Big Guy there. What a coincidence, because Guy Banister also wanted Oswald to go to Mexico City to fulfill his NOLA contract -- i.e. to trick his way into Cuba and join the Fidel Kill Team in Havana.

Now, out of the blue, Oswald would receive a free car ride to Mexico City PLUS a $500 cash bonus just for making the trip (where $500 in 1963 was like $5,000 in 2015).

(3.2) So, Oswald was still working for Guy Banister and Clay Shaw at NOLA, and he went to Mexico City with a folder full of newspaper clippings, fake FPCC credentials and a fake Communist Party card (all available in the Lopez Report).

At the end of the line, after Fidel Castro was dead, Oswald (probably) expected to get $100,000 in cash and a full-time job in the CIA -- and possibly a parade in New York City, and a chance to run for US President. He would do this thing.

(3.3) So, the ride with Loran Hall and Larry Howard and the extra $500 were just gravy. It was OK with Oswald that Loran Hall chose to stop for a half-hour at the apartment of Sylvia Odio to ask for money and favors, and to introduce "Leon Oswald" (where "Leon" is the Spanish equivalent of "Lee").

(3.4) In Mexico City, as everybody knows, Oswald made a complete fool of himself. Guy Banister, Clay Shaw and the top NOLA Team knew that Oswald could never get into Cuba with those fake credentials -- but their real purpose was complete -- Oswald was now FRAMED as a Communist. That was their payoff.

(3.5) At this point, the NOLA Team was finished with Oswald. Oswald was a big failure in Mexico City. He was turned down flat -- even after his theatrics at the Soviet Consulate (the loaded pistol, which must remind us of his slashed wrists in the USSR in 1959).

(3.6) According to Harry Dean, however, our luckless Oswald finally met Hall and Howard's pal in Mexico City -- Guy Gabaldon, founder of DACA (Drive Against Communist Aggression), and received his $500.

(3.7) Dean says that Gabaldon pretended to be in the CIA (much like the NOLA guys) and gave Oswald some new instructions: return to Dallas; go undercover; take a room; find a job; get life somewhat back to normal and wait for a "CIA" contact with further instructions. Oswald did exactly that.

(4.0) If Oswald was in contact with Anti-Castro Cuban Exiles in Dallas, Texas as well, then here's a plausible scenario:

Mrs. Lucille Connell remembered it this way (for better or worse): the Odio sisters in Dallas remained members of JURE, a special group of Anti-Castro Cuban Exiles, and would attend various political meetings there. Members of DRE would show up at these. So would Ex-General Edwin Walker, said Connell. So would Carlos Bringuier.

As Lucille Connell remembered it, Lee Harvey Oswald was also one of the speakers at these political meetings of Anti-Castro Cuban Exiles, and one or more of the Odio sisters was very impressed with his presentation about the need to defeat Castro.

However, some Cuban Exiles from NOLA telephoned the Odio sisters in Dallas to warn them that Lee Harvey Oswald was probably a double-agent, and could not be trusted (cf. Gaeton Fonzi).

(5.0) Aside from a scenario like this, the only other contact that Oswald received from the likes of Gabaldon, Hall and Howard was from Gerry Patrick Hemming (as he told A.J. Weberman) who called Oswald on 11/21/1963 and told him that he would pay Oswald double the market price for his Manlicher-Carcano rifle, if only Oswald would take it to the TSBD and hide it on the 6th floor so that his underground contact could secretly pick it up.

Oswald agreed to Hemming's cool deal and carried it out. That was the final act of Oswald's freedom. That very afternoon Oswald would be running for his life.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 16, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

...If Nagell is accepted as a source, Oswald was already quite aware that the fellows he had been in contact with in New Orleans were not true Castro agents but rather exiles pretending to be from Castro...the same view comes independently from Martino.

Unfortunately while we have good reason to think Oswald was in contact with exiles in Dallas, possibly as a dangle to exile gun buys, we have no idea of exactly what story lines had been fed to him from whom in those last days before Nov. 22.

If Martino is accepted Oswald had still been in touch with at least one of the guys from New Orleans - or someone representing him who could verify that, but he may have been talking to other exiles as well...ones not masquerading.

That why I expressed my view that Oswald was planning on leaving work and meeting with someone at the theatre, but any guess as to exactly what' they had told him and what he expected to do is just that...a guess, on my part at least...

I'd like to try to merge Nagell's and Martino's claims along with those of Harry Dean and see where it leads. For example:

(1.0) If Oswald was already aware that these two guys in NOLA (offering him a JFK Kill plot at Washington DC) were not true Castro agents, but Anti-Castro agents pretending to be Castro agents (as Nagell and Martino both claimed), this lets us infer much.

(1.1) Oswald possibly knew that Fidel Castro didn't want to kill JFK (because the next US President would have been worse). Therefore, these two allegedly Pro-Castro Agents were bogus, because they pretended that Fidel wanted to kill JFK.

(1.2) Besides, Oswald had bigger fish to fry -- he was working for Guy Banister and Clay Shaw, and was making spending cash for his efforts, which were loads of fun, e.g. he was getting his name in the newspaper, plus an appearance on a Radio show, plus an appearance on TV. Also, if he played ball with Guy Banister, he could hope to get a full-time job in the CIA.

(2.0) If Oswald was in contact with Anti-Castro Cuban Exiles in Dallas, Texas as well, then what can we infer from this? Larry, you wonder if Oswald was a dangle to Anti-Castro Gun Runners, but without any guess about the precise scenario. Martino thought Oswald was still in touch with those two guys from NOLA, but also perhaps others more normal in Dallas. So you wonder, Larry, whether Oswald was planning on meeting someone the Texas Theater -- possibly a Cuban Exile -- but without any guess about the precise scenario.

(3.0) At this point I would raise the scenario posed by Harry Dean, and my own theory, to see where it might fit. I'd start with this background: Oswald wasn't thinking about a JFK assassination in 1963 -- he was thinking about a Fidel Castro assassination.

David Atlee Philips was probably involved in NOLA -- hoping that these guys might finally assassinate Fidel Castro -- so he also pretended to Oswald that the CIA would give Oswald a job.

Therefore, Oswald might spy on those two guys in NOLA -- but otherwise he wasn't really interested in them.

(3.1) In mid-September Loran Hall and Larry Howard drove to Louisiana to offer Oswald $500 to accompany them to Mexico City and meet their Big Guy there. What a coincidence, because Guy Banister also wanted Oswald to go to Mexico City to fulfill his NOLA contract -- i.e. to trick his way into Cuba and join the Fidel Kill Team in Havana.

Now, out of the blue, Oswald would receive a free car ride to Mexico City PLUS a $500 cash bonus just for making the trip (where $500 in 1963 was like $5,000 in 2015).

(3.2) So, Oswald was still working for Guy Banister and Clay Shaw at NOLA, and he went to Mexico City with a folder full of newspaper clippings, fake FPCC credentials and a fake Communist Party card (all available in the Lopez Report).

At the end of the line, after Fidel Castro was dead, Oswald (probably) expected to get $100,000 in cash and a full-time job in the CIA -- and possibly a parade in New York City, and a chance to run for US President. He would do this thing.

(3.3) So, the ride with Loran Hall and Larry Howard and the extra $500 were just gravy. It was OK with Oswald that Loran Hall chose to stop for a half-hour at the apartment of Sylvia Odio to ask for money and favors, and to introduce "Leon Oswald" (where "Leon" is the Spanish equivalent of "Lee").

(3.4) In Mexico City, as everybody knows, Oswald made a complete fool of himself. Guy Banister, Clay Shaw and the top NOLA Team knew that Oswald could never get into Cuba with those fake credentials -- but their real purpose was complete -- Oswald was now FRAMED as a Communist. That was their payoff.

(3.5) At this point, the NOLA Team was finished with Oswald. Oswald was a big failure in Mexico City. He was turned down flat -- even after his theatrics at the Soviet Consulate (the loaded pistol, which must remind us of his slashed wrists in the USSR in 1959).

(3.6) According to Harry Dean, however, our luckless Oswald finally met Hall and Howard's pal in Mexico City -- Guy Gabaldon, founder of DACA (Drive Against Communist Aggression), and received his $500.

(3.7) Dean says that Gabaldon pretended to be in the CIA (much like the NOLA guys) and gave Oswald some new instructions: return to Dallas; go undercover; take a room; find a job; get life somewhat back to normal and wait for a "CIA" contact with further instructions. Oswald did exactly that.

(4.0) If Oswald was in contact with Anti-Castro Cuban Exiles in Dallas, Texas as well, then here's a plausible scenario:

Mrs. Lucille Connell remembered it this way (for better or worse): the Odio sisters in Dallas remained members of JURE, a special group of Anti-Castro Cuban Exiles, and would attend various political meetings there. Members of DRE would show up at these. So would Ex-General Edwin Walker, said Connell. So would Carlos Bringuier.

As Lucille Connell remembered it, Lee Harvey Oswald was also one of the speakers at these political meetings of Anti-Castro Cuban Exiles, and one or more of the Odio sisters was very impressed with his presentation about the need to defeat Castro.

However, some Cuban Exiles from NOLA telephoned the Odio sisters in Dallas to warn them that Lee Harvey Oswald was probably a double-agent, and could not be trusted (cf. Gaeton Fonzi).

(5.0) Aside from a scenario like this, the only other contact that Oswald received from the likes of Gabaldon, Hall and Howard was from Gerry Patrick Hemming (as he told A.J. Weberman) who called Oswald on 11/21/1963 and told him that he would pay Oswald double the market price for his Manlicher-Carcano rifle, if only Oswald would take it to the TSBD and hide it on the 6th floor so that his underground contact could secretly pick it up.

Oswald agreed to Hemming's cool deal and carried it out. That was the final act of Oswald's freedom. That very afternoon Oswald would be running for his life.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Word Twister,

You accused Larry twice in your pedantic 2 point zero point of not having a "guess" about a "precise scenario" (why not use the more civil word "idea," instead?), but then you use your evidently God-given artistic license in saying (guessing?) that Hall and Howard asked Silvia Odio for money.

So with you the devil is in the details, isn't it.

You should feel flattered that I read your posts.

--Tommy

Edited February 16, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, I actually don't read all of Paul's posts routinely any longer myself. I will respond to questions from others but I have no intention of getting drawn into dialogs on the Walker scenario because Paul can continue those endlessly....in a very civil fashion I should add. It just doesn't go anywhere with me because Paul accepts a variety of individuals and sources I don't find credible or reliable and we have been over all that before.

On the particular points you mentioned:

"2.0) If Oswald was in contact with Anti-Castro Cuban Exiles in Dallas, Texas as well, then what can we infer from this? Larry, you wonder if Oswald was a dangle to Anti-Castro Gun Runners, but without any guess about the precise scenario. Martino thought Oswald was still in touch with those two guys from NOLA, but also perhaps others more normal in Dallas. So you wonder, Larry, whether Oswald was planning on meeting someone the Texas Theater -- possibly a Cuban Exile -- but without any guess about the precise scenario."

Anyone who has read SWHT knows that whenever possible I prefer to just present data from sources I have personally vetted to my satisfaction. In that regard as early as the first chapter I present Martino's remarks about Oswald being told to meet someone at the theatre in the context of the faux Castro agents he had contacted in New Orleans and followed in the initial stages of setting up action in the Washington area in Sept. That is not a guess about a scenario, it is information from Martino. Martino did not know many details about the actual operation in Dallas and that is where he left it. Later in the book I "speculate" multiple times that the plan was to move Oswald out of Dallas, on towards Cuba and to kill him en route with additional evidence pointing towards Cuban influence.

Actually in Chapter 15 I go out on the limb and give some detailed "speculation/scenarios" on the whole operation, including what I see as the details of the actual attack - and where the plan fell apart. But those are simply scenarios, largely based off Martino's basic information and expanded by additional details. As to Paul's second point, actually in the book I do lay out a scenario in which Oswald continued as a dangle in Dallas, trying to involve himself with exiles engaged in gun purchases and I explore that - as well as the House on Harlandale, Masen and Ruby's links to gun deals - in considerable detail. I've even speculated separately on how that could have put Oswald in touch with Odio separately as she was also exploring gun and weapons purchases. But of course all that is speculation.

I have to admit I have been frustrated recently to see Paul post about his essentially being the first to come up with a scenario in which the cover up was disconnected from the attack. That idea has been around for a long time and I explore it in great detail in SWHT, including virtually a day by day detailing of how the conspirators tried to make their story stick while those in power won out with a cover up, submerging any talk of conspiracy and Cuba and essentially blocking any real investigation at all, much less one leading to conspiracy. Of course that's just my view of things but certainly it deserves to be recognized as both a scenario and speculation.

I'm sure Paul will respond but I will leave him to it, what I have is in SWHT and NEXUS and Paul says he has read both in detail so he had my best thoughts on the subject already.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Larry Hancock

[Paul Trejo]

Word Twister,

You accused Larry twice in your pedantic 2 point zero point of not having a "guess" about a "precise scenario" (why not use the more civil word "idea," instead?), but then you use your evidently God-given artistic license in saying (guessing?) that Hall and Howard asked Silvia Odio for money.

So with you the devil is in the details, isn't it.

You should feel flattered that I read your posts.

--Tommy

First, Tommy, I used the word, "guess" because Larry Hancock himself used the word "guess":

...That why I expressed my view that Oswald was planning on leaving work and meeting with someone at the theatre, but any guess as to exactly what' they had told him and what he expected to do is just that...a guess, on my part at least.

Certainly no pejorative was meant by using Larry Hancock's own term about his own ideas.

Secondly, you didn't respond to a single key point in my post, so I'm not flattered that you read my posts -- in fact, I doubt you read them thoroughly -- so please stop reading my posts -- your comments are useless to me.

(BTW, Silvia Odio herself said that" Leopoldo" came to her with a fund-raising letter.)

My point stands -- the Harry Dean scenario of Loran Hall and Larry Howard driving Lee Harvey Oswald to Mexico City to meet Guy Gabaldon remains fully compatible with the Jim Garrison scenario of Guy Banister sheep-dipping Lee Harvey Oswald and sending him to Mexico City -- and both of these accounts are also compatible with Nagell and Martino.

Thus we have this new step forward in my Unified Field Theory of JFK Research.

With utmost sincerity,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 16, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

...I have to admit I have been frustrated recently to see Paul post about his essentially being the first to come up with a scenario in which the cover up was disconnected from the attack.

That idea has been around for a long time and I explore it in great detail in SWHT, including virtually a day by day detailing of how the conspirators tried to make their story stick while those in power won out with a cover up, submerging any talk of conspiracy and Cuba and essentially blocking any real investigation at all, much less one leading to conspiracy.

Of course that's just my view of things but certainly it deserves to be recognized as both a scenario and speculation.

I'm sure Paul will respond but I will leave him to it, what I have is in SWHT and NEXUS and Paul says he has read both in detail so he had my best thoughts on the subject already.

Actually, Larry, my claim is that I'm the first to say that the JFK Cover-up Team was opposed to the JFK Kill Team.

I'm well aware that in the 1990's Jim Marrs had already said that there were TWO plots -- the plot to Kill JFK and the plot to Cover it up. I always admitted that was my starting point.

My point here, Larry, is that your reworking of the topic in SWHT/2010 is similar to that of Jim Marrs -- i.e. you both regard the TWO plots as still having the same Leadership -- and certainly not opposed to each other.

Nobody in the past 50 years has proposed that the JFK Cover-up Team was opposed to the JFK Kill Team, until it occurred to me in 2013, and I posted it to this Forum. I have found little support here, but I still maintain my theory is true based on the facts at hand, and on the weak arguments presented against me so far.

The JFK Kill Team said that Oswald was a Communist. (Martino admitted spreading that rumor, too, with the help of the John Birch Society, though he knew it to be false, as you ably pointed out in your works.)

The JFK Cover-up Team said that Oswald was a "Lone Nut". These are mutually exclusive scenarios. They are opposed. No JFK researcher in the past 50 years has ever pointed this out before -- I'm pretty sure. I'm aware of no other source. If you know of one, Larry, please tell me.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 16, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, all I can say is that either I was terribly unclear or Chapter 15 in SWHT did not get across the message that was intended. To clarify, in that chapter I present my view of an iterative cover up, not pre- planned but moving very quickly and ungracefully (and leaving all sorts of loose ends) while suppressing any real investigation based on the idea that those who were doing so most definitely wanted to ensure that real signs of conspiracy were not pursued. I do allow for the possibility that LBJ might have had some particular interest in suppression due to limited pre-knowledge of something being planned against JFK - but in no sense being personally involved in organizing the actual conspiracy itself or the attack in Dallas. I specifically call out instances in which evidence of conspiracy, pointing towards the involvement of CIA officers, served to make senior individuals (and offices at JMWAVE) hold back off from digging into or exposing something they were afraid existed....a conspiracy involving a personnel within a security agency....the same view that David Phillips ultimately expressed.

As part of chapter 15, I also detail a series of attempts from those promoting the Castro conspiracy to bring forth more more evidence pointing the finger at Castro and Cuban sponsorship, and how those in DC just kept knocking that down or ensuring it went nowhere. The whole intent was to portray two distinct conspiracies, with different individuals, fighting against each other post-assassination, with the folks in DC winning based on their power base and media control. If I didn't effectively get that across in the book I repeat it here, of course the reasons and evidence for that view are detailed in the book itself.

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, all I can say is that either I was terribly unclear or Chapter 15 in SWHT did not get across the message that was intended. To clarify, in that chapter I present my view of an iterative cover up, not pre- planned but moving very quickly and ungracefully (and leaving all sorts of loose ends) while suppressing any real investigation based on the idea that those who were doing so most definitely wanted to ensure that real signs of conspiracy were not pursued. I do allow for the possibility that LBJ might have had some particular interest in suppression due to limited pre-knowledge of something being planned against JFK - but in no sense being personally involved in organizing the actual conspiracy itself or the attack in Dallas. I specifically call out instances in which evidence of conspiracy, pointing towards the involvement of CIA officers, served to make senior individuals (and offices at JMWAVE) hold back off from digging into or exposing something they were afraid existed....a conspiracy involving a personnel within a security agency....the same view that David Phillips ultimately expressed.

As part of chapter 15, I also detail a series of attempts from those promoting the Castro conspiracy to bring forth more more evidence pointing the finger at Castro and Cuban sponsorship, and how those in DC just kept knocking that down or ensuring it went nowhere. The whole intent was to portray two distinct conspiracies, with different individuals, fighting against each other post-assassination, with the folks in DC winning based on their power base and media control. If I didn't effectively get that across in the book I repeat it here, of course the reasons and evidence for that view are detailed in the book itself.

Even then, Larry, your overall scenario, IMHO, suggests a JFK Kill Team behaving like Keystone Kops about their own Cover-up plans.

That is clearly different from my proposal -- that the JFK Cover-up Team acted *immediately* to oppose the impressions given by the JFK Kill Team that Lee Harvey Oswald was one of many Communists who were attacking the USA.

The JFK Kill Team had tried to create this phony impression way back in the summer of 1963 in NOLA and Mexico City.

However, on 11/22/1963, the JFK Cover-up Team saw right through their Big Lie, and quickly opposed them, on grounds of National Security, by using another Big Lie -- the "Lone Nut" theory.

These two Big Lies are mutually exclusive.

In my view, the JFK Kill Team represents the Bad Guys who tried to take over the USA. The JFK Cover-up Team, on the other hand, represents the Good Guys who acted in the interest of National Security -- and prevented riots, a Civil War and World War 3.

The JFK Kill Team didn't mind risking a nuclear confrontation with the USSR over Cuba. That's why I originally thought (like Oliver Stone and Fletcher Prouty) that General Edward Lansdale might have been involved with the Bad Guys. I'm following your advice, Larry, by taking Lansdale out of the picture for the time being, until more data is known.

Nevertheless, my view is very pointed and I think very new -- the JFK Cover-up Team was the sworn enemy of the JFK Kill Team from the very beginning.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 16, 2015 by Paul Trejo