Proof of Motorcade Stopping?

[Kenneth Drew]

...Well, other than the fact that a rifle built in the 30's would hardly be called 'modern' and the picture showing smoke coming from the fence area where badgeman was. And the smell of smoke in the Plaza.

Well, Kenneth, I am impressed with the eye-witness testimony of several folks at Dealey Plaza who said they smelled gun-powder on Elm Street.

That's not the same as smoke, however. Lee Bowers and the railroad men all agreed they saw "a puff of smoke" between the trees by the picket fence of the Grassy Knoll when JFK was murdered.

I admit that some weapons -- perhaps special weapons -- even today might emit a mist. I accept all the testimony of those who said they smelled gun-powder on Elm street.

Just to clarify -- Wesley Liebeler told David Lifton in 1968 that he laughed when he heard the railroad men claim to see that puff of smoke, because "modern rifles don't smoke." "We don't use muskets anymore," he quipped. He stopped Lifton in his tracks with that remark.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

That's not the same as smoke, however. Lee Bowers and the railroad men all agreed they saw "a puff of smoke" between the trees by the picket fence of the Grassy Knoll when JFK was murdered. You have seen the badgeman photo with the smoke from the rifle. right?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Not only would mounting a scope on an umbrella be difficult, there is then the problem of sighting your target through it. As anyone who has fired a scope equipped rifle knows, it is necessary to get quite close to the scope to sight through it, and the least amount of movement will spoil this view.

OK, Robert, but let's review the field so far. The first I ever heard of an umbrella dart-gun was on this very thread from Robert Mady. I was very skeptical at first, but the more I looked into the topic, the more I realized it answered multiple questions, like:

(1) Why does nobody else react to the first shot except JFK -- as if the shot were "silent"?

(2) Insofar as all doctors at Parkland agreed the throat wound was an entry wound, small and round, how could a bullet enter soft tissue like a throat, and not exit the back of the neck, and also not be found inside JFK's body?

Although a silencer could explain the first question, it cannot explain the second question. Only a dart-gun could possibly explain that. Am I still missing something?

FINALLY -- do you think that it's possible or impossible to aim an umbrella gun with accuracy sans scope?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Hi Paul

I guess, from ten feet away, it might be possible to align a point on the outer rim of the umbrella with the target, although controlling the elevation of the shot might be a bit trickier. However, I think the real problem might be in controlling the rocket once it left the launcher.

As I assume this rocket to be of a fairly simple design (remembering it is necessary for it to be blood soluble in a fairly short space of time and for it to leave NO trace of its existence) it goes without saying it could not possess any kind of sophisticated electronic guidance system that would allow it to maintain a stable and level flight on the way to its target.

Would there be any guarantee this rocket might not veer off course by a few degrees, enough to make it miss JFK?

And if a hole in JFK's throat with nothing in it was hard to explain, imagine how hard it would be to explain a paralyzed bystander with a similar hole somewhere on his/her body. Granted, as you say, the killers might not have cared if it became known there was a conspiracy. I doubt, though, whether they would want the trail leading back to the CIA; the only likely source for such a sophisticated weapon. OTOH, the Russians might also have had such a weapon, and it might have been hoped using the umbrella gun would point at the Russians as the suspects.

God, things get complicated quickly.

[Paul Trejo]

To be honest, Glenn, I'm undecided on James Files' story about the Fireball. He has made a couple of mistakes in his narrative over the years, although it is claimed, by some, that this is just his way of amusing himself by keeping all of the researchers guessing.

I've never fired a Fireball XP-100 .221 calibre with a 10" barrel before, or anything remotely like it (who would need such a thing? Must kick like a mule!). One thing I am curious about is how it could achieve a muzzle velocity of over 2700 fps with such a short barrel. Also, it would be interesting to know how accurate the Fireball is with such a short barrel.

I guess such a short shot, from the picket fence to the limo, is entirely possible, and the XP-100 would certainly explain the large cloud of "smoke" and the flash seen by Bowers.

However, Robert, if one gun can explain the puff of smoke, then I imagine other guns could also explain it. The witnesses were all ex-military men, I take it, and also believable.

Wesley Liebeler stunned David Lifton with his remark -- but Liebeler also hid vital data about Bethesda, with full awareness. So, he can't be trusted. I'm getting a general consensus from those knowledgeable about fire-arms that the puff of smoke was plausible.

Yet you also mentioned James Files. It seems to former CIA Agent Gary Shaw that James Files manufactured this legend out of his real experiences as chauffeur for Mafia leader Charles Nicoletti, who got stories and data from Johnny Roselli about the alleged Mafia role in the JFK murder. Having some real connection to the JFK murder through David Morales to Johnny Roselli to Sam Giancana to Charles Nicoletti to himself, James Files got a free ticket to write his story (much as Judyth Vary Baker got a free ticket by having a brief affair with Lee Harvey Oswald).

I don't believe James Files in the slightest. Con-men make the best fibbers.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited August 5, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Robert Prudhomme]

"(1) Why does nobody else react to the first shot except JFK -- as if the shot were "silent"?"

I beg to differ, Paul. If we look at the Altgens 6 photo, I believe we can see more than JFK reacting to a rifle shot.

This is a fascinating photo, and there is so much to be learned from it. If we are to believe the WC, a gunman on the 6th floor, aiming his rifle downward at JFK, has fired two shots several seconds before this photo was taken.

Every single bystander in this photo would have been ahead of the muzzle of the rifle. As anyone with any experience with firearms will attest, the sound of the report of a rifle is MUCH greater if you are standing ahead of the rifle muzzle (or beside it) as opposed to being behind the rifle muzzle. The sound of these shots would have been deafening on the sidewalk (especially with that 21 inch barrelled Carcano firing a cartridge designed to be shot from a 31 inch barrel), and all of these people should have experienced instantaneous and involuntary startle reactions. (when I say "instantaneous" I do not mean 10 seconds later, I mean instantaneous, as in within a fraction of a second)

And yet the bystanders continue to smile and wave as the President succumbs to his wounds. Why?

I believe the answer to this question can be found in the two SS agents riding on the outside right of the Queen Mary, and seen craning their necks to look behind the limo at something.

On a weapon equipped with a silencer, or "suppressor", it is only possible to completely eliminate all the noise from a shot if the weapon fires a projectile at a sub-sonic muzzle velocity (less than the speed of sound - roughly 1035 fps). Many handguns fall into this category, and the depiction of completely silent silenced handguns in the movies is actually quite accurate. However, centre fire rifle cartridges propel bullets at supersonic velocities, often far in excess of the speed of sound, and while it is possible to completely eliminate the "blast" from the muzzle, nothing can be done to eliminate the sharp "crack" the bullet makes as it breaks the sound barrier on the way to its target, other than shooting from such a great distance, the bullet slows to subsonic velocities by the time it reaches its target.

Now, the neat thing about the "crack" this bullet would make is that, while being a very sharp noise, it is not a very big noise, and can be compared to the cracking of a bull whip. After all, this is a bullet breaking the sound barrier, not a jet plane, and the sonic boom it makes might not even be audible 30 feet away. Even if it were audible to the bystanders, it would likely not cause a startle reaction, and it might require some time for this "firecracker" sound to even register in their minds.

However, if the bullet was fired from behind the limo (somewhere in the vicinity of a lower floor of the Dal-Tex Building) and it was from a suppressed rifle, the bullet very likely might pass within a few feet of the heads of the two SS agents on the outer right side of the QM.

Can you imagine what that bullet must have sounded like to them? Probably not even like a bullet at all. Small wonder they are looking around to attempt to identify it.

[Robert Prudhomme]

To be honest, Glenn, I'm undecided on James Files' story about the Fireball. He has made a couple of mistakes in his narrative over the years, although it is claimed, by some, that this is just his way of amusing himself by keeping all of the researchers guessing.

I've never fired a Fireball XP-100 .221 calibre with a 10" barrel before, or anything remotely like it (who would need such a thing? Must kick like a mule!). One thing I am curious about is how it could achieve a muzzle velocity of over 2700 fps with such a short barrel. Also, it would be interesting to know how accurate the Fireball is with such a short barrel.

I guess such a short shot, from the picket fence to the limo, is entirely possible, and the XP-100 would certainly explain the large cloud of "smoke" and the flash seen by Bowers.

However, Robert, if one gun can explain the puff of smoke, then I imagine other guns could also explain it. The witnesses were all ex-military men, I take it, and also believable.

Wesley Liebeler stunned David Lifton with his remark -- but Liebeler also hid vital data about Bethesda, with full awareness. So, he can't be trusted. I'm getting a general consensus from those knowledgeable about fire-arms that the puff of smoke was plausible.

Yet you also mentioned James Files. It seems to former CIA Agent Gary Shaw that James Files manufactured this legend out of his real experiences as chauffeur for Mafia leader Charles Nicoletti, who got stories and data from Johnny Roselli about the alleged Mafia role in the JFK murder. Having some real connection to the JFK murder through David Morales to Johnny Roselli to Sam Giancana to Charles Nicoletti to himself, James Files got a free ticket to write his story (much as Judyth Vary Baker got a free ticket by having a brief affair with Lee Harvey Oswald).

I don't believe James Files in the slightest. Con-men make the best fibbers.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

I tend not to believe it either but, I do like to keep an open mind on this subject.

[Glenn Nall]

<snip>

secondly - yes, that's what my theory supports - it's the most common one FOR A REASON. There's no glory in having the most unique theory. There's only satisfaction in using good reason to get as close to the solution as possible, for the sake of the solution, not for the sake of attention.

it may surprise you, but most of the opinions in here are going to be on the assumption that the entire thing was somewhat a single collusion and plan.

of course mine presumes that. why would it not, if that's what my premise is?

NOW >>

"I admit that some weapons -- perhaps special weapons -- even today might emit a mist."

really? you're so proud that in your reticence to admit a small correction you even have to change the wording to "mist?" you'll agree with the smell of gunpowder, but not to someone seeing "smoke?"

you take the word of Liebeler for some reason, even though there's a picture RIGHT HERE which shows a modern rifle produce smoke (or mist, or vapor - to a layperson witnessing a public shooting, "smoke" explains it just FINE.) OVER Robert and Me and whomever will say first hand that there are guns which "smoke" even today. that smokeless powder does not mean "smokeless."

good god. no wonder your theory has no traction.

Actually, Glenn, the shoving of the JFK Kill-Team and the JFK Cover-up Team together wasn't done for a REASON as you claim, but out of sheer LAZINESS, combined with a lack of INSIGHT.

Vincent Salandria in 1965 might have been the first to insist that the JFK Killers planned the Coverup. Or it might have been Harold Weinberg in 1964. Sylvia Meagher was also of that opinion. So was Mark Lane. Yet it was Jim Garrison in 1968 who got the widest audience for that idea, and blamed the CIA for the whole mess.

Today the CIA-did-it CTers still reign supreme. But I say they were mistaken in 1964, and they're mistaken today. There is no narrative in their literature that explains the unity of the JFK Kill-Team and the JFK Cover-up Team -- IT IS MERELY ASSUMED.

As for the MIST vs. SMOKE theory -- I thought I was clear, but let me be perfectly clear -- I have no experience with guns or rifles or any such weapons. I am learning about them through kind writers like Robert Prudhomme who are willing to share such data without insulting readers who admit they don't know.

David Lifton was stunned by Wesley Liebeler's remark and laughter about smoke and guns. Yet Lifton adequately proved that Liebeler deliberately hid other key information about the JFK murder, so I keep an open mind.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

once it's written, it's in the email. editing only prevents those not subscribed from reading what you first wrote.

"but out of sheer LAZINESS, combined with a lack of INSIGHT."

i'd say that's pretty insulting. so, yes, you have insulted me. it's also insulting to belittle others' theories as inadequate as compared to yours. this is highly insulting. i'm sorry you can't see that.

you say that these two people might have been the first to believe that the killers also did the cover up - in 1964 or 5. good. this doesn't mean they were lazy, this means that their information was obviously much different than it was later. is that hard to believe? doesn't it make sense that the more time passes, the more info is revealed??? lazy? damn.

does that mean that the translators of the Bibles before 1947 were lazy because the Dead Sea Scrolls hadn't been found yet?

There is no narrative in their literature that explains --- what? a crime of this magnitude it's NATURALLY assumed that those who perpetrated the crime perpetrated the cover up - in fact, a crime of any magnitude. this is how crime works, Paul:

a person plans a crime (I think i'll rob that bank), a person commits the crime (he does so), and the person makes good his escape (he takes steps to prevent investigators from discovering his identity and catching him). can you please tell me how this is NOT the natural order of events in any given crime? how this is NOT what people would assume happened in THIS crime???

and there are very few CIA-did-it CTers - get it straight. There are MANY CTers who think SOME 'perhaps rogue' members of the CIA were involved, either surreptitiously or not, but certainly NOT representing their employer.

if you think no CIA members were involved, why did Hunt lie like a rug about where he was that day?

you need to be more careful in your accusations. You're not helping your cause.

[Glenn Nall]

To be honest, Glenn, I'm undecided on James Files' story about the Fireball. He has made a couple of mistakes in his narrative over the years, although it is claimed, by some, that this is just his way of amusing himself by keeping all of the researchers guessing.

I've never fired a Fireball XP-100 .221 calibre with a 10" barrel before, or anything remotely like it (who would need such a thing? Must kick like a mule!). One thing I am curious about is how it could achieve a muzzle velocity of over 2700 fps with such a short barrel. Also, it would be interesting to know how accurate the Fireball is with such a short barrel.

I guess such a short shot, from the picket fence to the limo, is entirely possible, and the XP-100 would certainly explain the large cloud of "smoke" and the flash seen by Bowers.

However, Robert, if one gun can explain the puff of smoke, then I imagine other guns could also explain it. The witnesses were all ex-military men, I take it, and also believable.

Wesley Liebeler stunned David Lifton with his remark -- but Liebeler also hid vital data about Bethesda, with full awareness. So, he can't be trusted. I'm getting a general consensus from those knowledgeable about fire-arms that the puff of smoke was plausible.

Yet you also mentioned James Files. It seems to former CIA Agent Gary Shaw that James Files manufactured this legend out of his real experiences as chauffeur for Mafia leader Charles Nicoletti, who got stories and data from Johnny Roselli about the alleged Mafia role in the JFK murder. Having some real connection to the JFK murder through David Morales to Johnny Roselli to Sam Giancana to Charles Nicoletti to himself, James Files got a free ticket to write his story (much as Judyth Vary Baker got a free ticket by having a brief affair with Lee Harvey Oswald).

I don't believe James Files in the slightest. Con-men make the best fibbers.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Wesley Liebeler stunned David Lifton with his remark -- but Liebeler also hid vital data about Bethesda, with full awareness. So, he can't be trusted.

?? if that's the case, then why did you cite his remarks to Lifton to support your own assertion? that's not exactly responsible debate, is it...?

[Glenn Nall]

"(1) Why does nobody else react to the first shot except JFK -- as if the shot were "silent"?"

I beg to differ, Paul. If we look at the Altgens 6 photo, I believe we can see more than JFK reacting to a rifle shot.

This is a fascinating photo, and there is so much to be learned from it. If we are to believe the WC, a gunman on the 6th floor, aiming his rifle downward at JFK, has fired two shots several seconds before this photo was taken.

Every single bystander in this photo would have been ahead of the muzzle of the rifle. As anyone with any experience with firearms will attest, the sound of the report of a rifle is MUCH greater if you are standing ahead of the rifle muzzle (or beside it) as opposed to being behind the rifle muzzle. The sound of these shots would have been deafening on the sidewalk (especially with that 21 inch barrelled Carcano firing a cartridge designed to be shot from a 31 inch barrel), and all of these people should have experienced instantaneous and involuntary startle reactions. (when I say "instantaneous" I do not mean 10 seconds later, I mean instantaneous, as in within a fraction of a second)

And yet the bystanders continue to smile and wave as the President succumbs to his wounds. Why?

I believe the answer to this question can be found in the two SS agents riding on the outside right of the Queen Mary, and seen craning their necks to look behind the limo at something.

On a weapon equipped with a silencer, or "suppressor", it is only possible to completely eliminate all the noise from a shot if the weapon fires a projectile at a sub-sonic muzzle velocity (less than the speed of sound - roughly 1035 fps). Many handguns fall into this category, and the depiction of completely silent silenced handguns in the movies is actually quite accurate. However, centre fire rifle cartridges propel bullets at supersonic velocities, often far in excess of the speed of sound, and while it is possible to completely eliminate the "blast" from the muzzle, nothing can be done to eliminate the sharp "crack" the bullet makes as it breaks the sound barrier on the way to its target, other than shooting from such a great distance, the bullet slows to subsonic velocities by the time it reaches its target.

Now, the neat thing about the "crack" this bullet would make is that, while being a very sharp noise, it is not a very big noise, and can be compared to the cracking of a bull whip. After all, this is a bullet breaking the sound barrier, not a jet plane, and the sonic boom it makes might not even be audible 30 feet away. Even if it were audible to the bystanders, it would likely not cause a startle reaction, and it might require some time for this "firecracker" sound to even register in their minds.

However, if the bullet was fired from behind the limo (somewhere in the vicinity of a lower floor of the Dal-Tex Building) and it was from a suppressed rifle, the bullet very likely might pass within a few feet of the heads of the two SS agents on the outer right side of the QM.

Can you imagine what that bullet must have sounded like to them? Probably not even like a bullet at all. Small wonder they are looking around to attempt to identify it.

interesting. it's never occurred to me that 2 shots have been proposed to have been shot at this point. by either the warren commission OR pee wee herman.

re the 2 SS guys looking back - that's what i've thought, too, that something got their attention and not the others because they've heard similar things before whereas others haven't - AND that coupled with a bullet passing closer to them than the others, if a silenced rifle was used, and i think the odds are good that one was either in Dal Tex or TSBD West, would explain their action in Altgens 6.

i've looked at the huge format of this pic, and you could literally lose yourself in it. hours and hours, there's so much to go over.

last night i looked at some good copies of Z frames on my Galaxy Tab - zoomed in - a MUCH better resolution than a regular PC monitor - and again got lost in the minutiae.

on another note:

i've found some other pics, and i think I've solved the crime. stay tuned for further developments.

i mean, don't hold your breath, just stay tuned.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Glenn Nall

[Glenn Nall]

To be honest, Glenn, I'm undecided on James Files' story about the Fireball. He has made a couple of mistakes in his narrative over the years, although it is claimed, by some, that this is just his way of amusing himself by keeping all of the researchers guessing.

I've never fired a Fireball XP-100 .221 calibre with a 10" barrel before, or anything remotely like it (who would need such a thing? Must kick like a mule!). One thing I am curious about is how it could achieve a muzzle velocity of over 2700 fps with such a short barrel. Also, it would be interesting to know how accurate the Fireball is with such a short barrel.

I guess such a short shot, from the picket fence to the limo, is entirely possible, and the XP-100 would certainly explain the large cloud of "smoke" and the flash seen by Bowers.

However, Robert, if one gun can explain the puff of smoke, then I imagine other guns could also explain it. The witnesses were all ex-military men, I take it, and also believable.

Wesley Liebeler stunned David Lifton with his remark -- but Liebeler also hid vital data about Bethesda, with full awareness. So, he can't be trusted. I'm getting a general consensus from those knowledgeable about fire-arms that the puff of smoke was plausible.

Yet you also mentioned James Files. It seems to former CIA Agent Gary Shaw that James Files manufactured this legend out of his real experiences as chauffeur for Mafia leader Charles Nicoletti, who got stories and data from Johnny Roselli about the alleged Mafia role in the JFK murder. Having some real connection to the JFK murder through David Morales to Johnny Roselli to Sam Giancana to Charles Nicoletti to himself, James Files got a free ticket to write his story (much as Judyth Vary Baker got a free ticket by having a brief affair with Lee Harvey Oswald).

I don't believe James Files in the slightest. Con-men make the best fibbers.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

this explanation of Files' source explains a lot to me. I couldn't understand how he could have simply created such a somewhat accurate story, so i tended to believe some of it. with this, i can see how, and, right, this makes the whole thing pretty suspect.

good stuff.

this is what seeking the truth is all about. the willingness to be wrong, and to be corrected, and to be taught. in the name of getting to the truth, not in the name of being right. i'm not always successful, but if i keep an open mind, i'm always learning.

[Robert Prudhomme]

"(1) Why does nobody else react to the first shot except JFK -- as if the shot were "silent"?"

I beg to differ, Paul. If we look at the Altgens 6 photo, I believe we can see more than JFK reacting to a rifle shot.

This is a fascinating photo, and there is so much to be learned from it. If we are to believe the WC, a gunman on the 6th floor, aiming his rifle downward at JFK, has fired two shots several seconds before this photo was taken.

Every single bystander in this photo would have been ahead of the muzzle of the rifle. As anyone with any experience with firearms will attest, the sound of the report of a rifle is MUCH greater if you are standing ahead of the rifle muzzle (or beside it) as opposed to being behind the rifle muzzle. The sound of these shots would have been deafening on the sidewalk (especially with that 21 inch barrelled Carcano firing a cartridge designed to be shot from a 31 inch barrel), and all of these people should have experienced instantaneous and involuntary startle reactions. (when I say "instantaneous" I do not mean 10 seconds later, I mean instantaneous, as in within a fraction of a second)

And yet the bystanders continue to smile and wave as the President succumbs to his wounds. Why?

I believe the answer to this question can be found in the two SS agents riding on the outside right of the Queen Mary, and seen craning their necks to look behind the limo at something.

On a weapon equipped with a silencer, or "suppressor", it is only possible to completely eliminate all the noise from a shot if the weapon fires a projectile at a sub-sonic muzzle velocity (less than the speed of sound - roughly 1035 fps). Many handguns fall into this category, and the depiction of completely silent silenced handguns in the movies is actually quite accurate. However, centre fire rifle cartridges propel bullets at supersonic velocities, often far in excess of the speed of sound, and while it is possible to completely eliminate the "blast" from the muzzle, nothing can be done to eliminate the sharp "crack" the bullet makes as it breaks the sound barrier on the way to its target, other than shooting from such a great distance, the bullet slows to subsonic velocities by the time it reaches its target.

Now, the neat thing about the "crack" this bullet would make is that, while being a very sharp noise, it is not a very big noise, and can be compared to the cracking of a bull whip. After all, this is a bullet breaking the sound barrier, not a jet plane, and the sonic boom it makes might not even be audible 30 feet away. Even if it were audible to the bystanders, it would likely not cause a startle reaction, and it might require some time for this "firecracker" sound to even register in their minds.

However, if the bullet was fired from behind the limo (somewhere in the vicinity of a lower floor of the Dal-Tex Building) and it was from a suppressed rifle, the bullet very likely might pass within a few feet of the heads of the two SS agents on the outer right side of the QM.

Can you imagine what that bullet must have sounded like to them? Probably not even like a bullet at all. Small wonder they are looking around to attempt to identify it.

interesting. it's never occurred to me that 2 shots have been proposed to have been shot at this point. by either the warren commission OR pee wee herman.

re the 2 SS guys looking back - that's what i've thought, too, that something got their attention and not the others because they've heard similar things before whereas others haven't - AND that coupled with a bullet passing closer to them than the others, if a silenced rifle was used, and i think the odds are good that one was either in Dal Tex or TSBD West, would explain their action in Altgens 6.

i've looked at the huge format of this pic, and you could literally lose yourself in it. hours and hours, there's so much to go over.

last night i looked at some good copies of Z frames on my Galaxy Tab - zoomed in - a MUCH better resolution than a regular PC monitor - and again got lost in the minutiae.

on another note:

i've found some other pics, and i think I've solved the crime. stay tuned for further developments.

i mean, don't hold your breath, just stay tuned.

Well, if you think about it, the WC supporters would have us believe the first shot missed, and it occurred at z160. The Altgens 6 photo has been established as being taken at z255. 255 - 160 = 95 frames. With Zapruder's camera filming at 18.3 frames per second, 95/18.3 = 5.19 seconds.

Really hard to believe a rifle has been fired downward in the direction of those bystanders 5.19 seconds before this photo was taken.

I'm staying tuned.

[Mark Knight]

As we know, there was no overall examination of the wounds to see where they might have exited. Example: no probe was run through the back wound to see where it came out. There were also no body xrays made looking for bullets left inside. There may have been several, no check was made.

That's not what Dr. Pierre Finck told the HSCA:

Dr. FINCK. Well, you cannot go into a track when -- you know, this is difficult to explain. You can make an artificial track if you push hard enough with an instrument so you go gently to see that there is a track, and the fact that you don't find a track with a probe may be because of contraction of muscles after death.

Dr. WECHT. Was the probe done with a metal probe?

Dr. FINCK. That is why I said probing was unsuccessful.

Mr. PURDY. How far into the body did the probe go before you were afraid it might create an artificial track?

Dr. FINCK. I don't know.

Mr. PURDY. What was your confusion that you had said -- I am not sure that you used the word "confusion." I think you used a word to describe the state of mind when you could not find the track and you could not find an exit wound and you could not find evidence of a bullet. How did you resolve that confusion that night during the autopsy?

Dr. FINCK. By asking for the X ray films.

While Finck's answers weren't very enlightening, he indicates that, to a minor extent, a metal probe WAS used. AND x-rays were referred to. What was NOT done was that the wound was not dissected to determine for certain the track of the bullet.

Yeah, Finck's testimony is very evasive...but he reveals a couple of things.

Here's the link I used: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/finckhsca.htm

[Kathleen Collins]

I don't buy your premise--that only sex addicts have affairs. Where do you get this from?

If you actually do the digging, you'll find that Hoover was collecting dirt on Kennedy, and that Kennedy almost certainly had a few affairs. The affair for which there is the most evidence, should you be interested, is the affair with Judy Campbell. She made numerous phone calls to the White House, and he called her back. The FBI staked out her house, and observed the sons of the chief security officer for General Dynamics--the recipient of a highly questionable government contract--break-in to her house, apparently looking for dirt linking Campbell to Kennedy. Even stranger, one of these sons was the former son-in-law of Governor Connally, who only became "former" when his wife (Connally's daughter) committed suicide.

There's also this: Campbell was simultaneously having an affair with Sam Giancana.

As I recall, the story goes like this: Hoover got the dirt on Kennedy, and showed it to his "boss", RFK, who turned around told his brother to knock it off. And he did.

I can add to the Judy Campbell saga. In the spring of 1961 Jerry Lewis was making a film called "Ladies Man." In the cast was Karyn Kupcinet. Anyway, the chief hairdresser was married to gossip columnist John Austin whom I knew. Jerry brought Judy Campbell to the set. Mrs. Austin said, we all knew what was going on. Jerry told people that he needed her because they were writing a book on some weird subject matter. But it didn't fool anyone. Judy was from Chicago and would have recognized Karyn Kupcinet, who was a star in Chicago. So when Karyn was murdered 6 days after President Kennedy and not found for 3 days, it really shook Chicago. I often wonder if Judy and Karyn ever talked together. 1500 mourners turned out for her funeral.

Kathy C

Edited August 6, 2015 by Kathleen Collins

[Glenn Nall]

Pat - "only sex addicts have affairs." ??? who in the world said that...???

KC - fascinating, valuable little tidbit. I love it. that's one of those things you file away under "You Never Know What This Might Mean One Day"...

what surprises me is what Karen's dad said about that not whatsoever being a "hit" when it so much looks like one. Him being a journalist (right?) he'd likely be threatened for talking, but still...

[Paul Trejo]

...Lee Bowers and the railroad men all agreed they saw "a puff of smoke" between the trees by the picket fence of the Grassy Knoll when JFK was murdered. You have seen the badgeman photo with the smoke from the rifle. right?

I'm interested in the Badgeman, too, Kenneth. Yet it seems to me that the explosion of Badgeman's rifle triggering its bullet was a brief flash of gunpowder, and not actually a puff of smoke.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Glenn Nall]

Paul, what in the world would be the difference within the present context?