Any prevailing theories on the back wound?

[Sandy Larsen]

Ray,

To me it looks like the guy is standing behind the truck.

But I think you're posting this in the wrong thread.

Hi Sandy,

If you enlarge the photo, you will see that he appears to be in the back of the truck.

I posted it here because you were talking about shots from the South Knoll.

Ohhh, okay! Thanks. Yeah, that gives me a better idea as to what the south terrain looks like.

[Tom Neal]

Do you know if the portable unit was used for all the x-rays?

According to the two x-rays techs, ONLY the portable machine was used.

there was a period of time (about an hour?) when Humes had the body before the gallery was filled and the official autopsy began. A regular x-ray machine might have been used then.

The non-portable x-ray equipment was on the 4th floor. IMO the body would have been seen at sometime during the required round trip, and we would have at least heard stories that this had happened.

Tom said:

Why chop up the lungs looking for bullets/fragments when you could send the right lung with one of the techs to use the available high-res x-ray machine? Unless of course your goal was to destroy the evidence of a perforated lung with dust-like "particles that look like metal but are actually dirt" to quote Ebersole and the HSCA.

But the part about dust-like particles looking like metal to a radiologist, Dr. Ebersole, certainly grabs my attention, particularly in light of this frangible/exotic bullet discussion. Unexposed film in hospitals doesn't get dirty.

ALL of the removed internal organs could have been transported to the high-res x-ray machine and x-rayed en masse by one or both techs while Humes and the others continued with their work. With this option readily available, what possible reason could they have for breaking out the meat cleaver? Hmmm...the topic of a frangible as well as an 'exotic' type of bullet was brought up by the FBI, who immediately called the FBI Lab to ask about these alternatives to an FMJ. The FBI concluded these were possibilities. Of course, If you are not allowed to produce evidence of a frangible bullet then you would NOT use the equipment that would have revealed one if it was present.

The cut-up organs were 'put back into the body'. Is this normal procedure, or was it a quick and easy way to get rid of incriminating evidence?

Tom

Edited November 9, 2015 by Tom Neal

[Chris Davidson]

Conspiracy Reporters, I'm not married to the idea that Greer tried to elevate JFK's seat to give a clearer sight-line to the French/Corsican sniper team on the South Grassy Knoll. I AM still married to the idea that the back wound is an EXIT, shot from his left-front, from that slope between the Postal Bldg car park and the RR tracks. I may delete that whole point "3." in post #414, where I "reach" for more ways that JFK's throat could have been more exposed, could have cleared the big, flat roof support of the limo in a line to SGK. Wild conjectures give us CRs a bad name.

First, let me tell you what I did find from Jim Bishop's The Day Kennedy Was Shot regarding the back seat of the limo. Not much. Page 91--The PRESIDENT had the lever and "could lift the back seat 10 1/2 inches". In the lowest position the First Couple were "little more than 3 inches above their guests." I've seen 2 inches elsewhere, even on this thread I believe. What's a little suspicious: I have a note beside this passage iln my copy, "3rd time stated." As if JB doth protest too much about precisely this, the elevation of K in the limo.

Anyway, the importance of this point is miniscule. It's like a hair on an elephant. At Z190, before the front bumper of the limo reached the Stemmons sign, someone on SGK could have fired (with a sound-suppressor of course) a shot that entered the president's throat, grazed his right lung, and exited his back. And he still could have said, as Kellerman reported, "My God, I'm hit."

Roy,

A little backseat footage.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OQUx6U25wRFp2QWc/view?usp=sharing

Of course, cleaning up the scene prematurely might create more difficulties in figuring out exactly what happened.

I recommend downloading the bottom link as opposed to just playing it, because of its size, it appears to have buffering problems.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OdnQ4eHluV1ZhUjA/view?usp=sharing

chris

Edited November 10, 2015 by Chris Davidson

[Sandy Larsen]

Do you know if the portable unit was used for all the x-rays?

According to the two x-rays techs, ONLY the portable machine was used.

there was a period of time (about an hour?) when Humes had the body before the gallery was filled and the official autopsy began. A regular x-ray machine might have been used then.

The non-portable x-ray equipment was on the 4th floor. IMO the body would have been seen at sometime during the required round trip, and we would have at least heard stories that this had happened.

Tom said:

Why chop up the lungs looking for bullets/fragments when you could send the right lung with one of the techs to use the available high-res x-ray machine? Unless of course your goal was to destroy the evidence of a perforated lung with dust-like "particles that look like metal but are actually dirt" to quote Ebersole and the HSCA.

But the part about dust-like particles looking like metal to a radiologist, Dr. Ebersole, certainly grabs my attention, particularly in light of this frangible/exotic bullet discussion. Unexposed film in hospitals doesn't get dirty.

ALL of the removed internal organs could have been transported to the high-res x-ray machine and x-rayed en masse by one or both techs while Humes and the others continued with their work. With this option readily available, what possible reason could they have for breaking out the meat cleaver? Hmmm...the topic of a frangible as well as an 'exotic' type of bullet was brought up by the FBI, who immediately called the FBI Lab to ask about these alternatives to an FMJ. The FBI concluded these were possibilities. Of course, If you are not allowed to produce evidence of a frangible bullet then you would NOT use the equipment that would have revealed one if it was present.

The cut-up organs were 'put back into the body'. Is this normal procedure, or was it a quick and easy way to get rid of incriminating evidence?

Tom

All good points, Tom.

Maybe I'm working too hard to make an honest man out of Humes. It's just that Robert's latest theory, if on track, seems to make Humes's testimony more honest. And David Lifton's new book apparently will do the same. Other than for the latest change he made that required burning the first autopsy report, Humes seemed to have been a more honest broker than I thought.

[Robert Prudhomme]

I was just listening to the recorded interview of the 1978 HSCA interview of Lt. Richard Lipsey, and I believe I have learned the true nature of his role in the autopsy. I believe some of us mistakenly believed he was assisting in the autopsy, and that he was a medical personnel with some experience in autopsy procedures. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, as aide de camp to General Wehle, his duties were in assisting to coordinate movement of JFK's casket to Bethesda. As he admits himself early on in the interview, he merely observed the autopsy, and not all of it, either. At about the 14:00 mark, he actually tells the interviewers that JFK's corpse was the first corpse he had ever seen.

I believe this deals a serious blow to the confirmation of whether or not the metal probe, used by Humes to probe JFK's back wound, was actually stopped from entering the pleural cavity by an intact pleural membrane. Once again, we must consider the very real possibility that the probing was part of a charade and that Lipsey, from his POV as an observer, very likely could not get close enough to JFK to look inside his pleural cavity, and was relying entirely on what was being said by Humes.

[Roy Wieselquist]

Sandy #444: "I'd like to see a diagram..." I can draw one on paper. As for getting it on here, well, I don't know how to get a link or photo on here. I'll probably be able to learn pretty soon. My son who runs IBM is supposed to come over this weekend. I may be the first guy kicked off Ed Forum for a sub-human lack of computer skills. But I'm a heck of a typist.

Ray # 445: GREAT view of SGK. I've never seen a better one. It looks plenty high up enough to do what I'm suggesting---clear the windshield and roll-bar. Do you know how soon after the shooting the top photo was taken? I wish that exact same photo had been taken at Z190. Major muchos gracias.

Chris #453:Great pics of the back seat. OK, in the Fox video (the beginning and end show it best) you see how those big buttons break up the back into quarters? In the quarter JFK was sitting against, there are three dimples/irregularities in the navy blue (almost black) top. Facing it as if that quarter section were a ruler, there's a lone one about 3" over, and then two together at about 8,9,10'. Those two look like a good candidate for this: The supersonic, small mass .223 went into his neck at a 10-15* angle, nicked a back rib between 3 and 4, so that the bullet yawed some, went out his back and clothes (much of the momentum gone by now) The messed-up bullet (I believe that's the technical term, right Bob P.?) then didn't have piercing power. And since K was pressed against the tough leather, pressing whatever cushion there was behind it, the slug bounced back and somehow got tangled in his clothes.

OK, how it's possible that SS behind him saw the wound, the torn jacket (so that it was above the back seat), yet the bullet itself didn't strike above the back seat---They were looking down on JFK, and the bullet, after striking a rib and ripping the jacket, was on a much steeper downward path than when it started out. Quod esat demonstratum.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Roy Wieselquist

[James R Gordon]

Sandy #444: "I'd like to see a diagram..." I can draw one on paper. As for getting it on here, well, I don't know how to get a link or photo on here. I'll probably be able to learn pretty soon. My son who runs IBM is supposed to come over this weekend. I may be the first guy kicked off Ed Forum for a sub-human lack of computer skills. But I'm a heck of a typist.

Ray # 445: GREAT view of SGK. I've never seen a better one. It looks plenty high up enough to do what I'm suggesting---clear the windshield and roll-bar. Do you know how soon after the shooting the top photo was taken? I wish that exact same photo had been taken at Z190. Major muchos gracias.

Chris #453:Great pics of the back seat. OK, in the Fox video (the beginning and end show it best) you see how those big buttons break up the back into quarters? In the quarter JFK was sitting against, there are three dimples/irregularities in the navy blue (almost black) top. Facing it as if that quarter section were a ruler, there's a lone one about 3" over, and then two together at about 8,9,10'. Those two look like a good candidate for this: The supersonic, small mass .223 went into his neck at a 10-15* angle, nicked a back rib between 3 and 4, so that the bullet yawed some, went out his back and clothes (much of the momentum gone by now) The messed-up bullet (I believe that's the technical term, right Bob P.?) then didn't have piercing power. And since K was pressed against the tough leather, pressing whatever cushion there was behind it, the slug bounced back and somehow got tangled in his clothes.

OK, how it's possible that SS behind him saw the wound, the torn jacket (so that it was above the back seat), yet the bullet itself didn't strike above the back seat---They were looking down on JFK, and the bullet, after striking a rib and ripping the jacket, was on a much steeper downward path than when it started out. Quod esat demonstratum.

Roy with reference to Post 444.

The POV of Zapruder compared to the reality of where Z 190 is on Elm Street are two very different points.

For Zapruder it may look as if the car is passing behind the Stemmons sign. Actually that is not the case. The car is 54 feet above the sign. Actually it will be three seconds in Zapruder film time before the car actually reaches where Zapruder suggests it is.

As regards Z190:-

Aside from the distance from the Grassy knoll to where JFK is this is a very problematic notion.

First:- opposite and facing JFK are around 12 people. Many are at the edge of the pavement and are only around 12 feet from him. Do you feel they would be unaware that he had just been shot in the throat.

Second:- At this point JFK is not looking forward but 90º to his right. That means the trachea entrance point has also moved to the right and is now no longer visible.

Third:- Even if the witnesses would not be aware of the shot AND even if it was possible to strike the correct point, the trajectory analysis would require the bullet to drive leftward and certainly smash through Kennedy's spine.

James

[Robert Prudhomme]

From James Gordon:

"Second:- At this point JFK is not looking forward but 90º to his right. That means the trachea entrance point has also moved to the right and is now no longer visible."

Hi James

I quite agree with you regarding the difficulties of a frontal throat shot exiting out the back wound, mainly because there is no vantage point in front of the limo high enough to account for the steep downward angle of such a wound.

However, regarding the trachea, there is an oddity about it that many people are unaware of. I have had this argument many times with believers of the SBT.

While JFK is turned to his right, as you point out, it is his head that is severely turned, while his body and shoulders remain facing almost forward. Believe it or not, the trachea, at the level of the throat wound, does not turn with the head but, rather, remains in the same position.

This is critical in the case of the SBT but is a rather moot point in this case, as I believe even turning JFK's body 5° to the right would eliminate anything south of the TUP as a source for the bullet.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

I listened to some more of Lt. Richard Lipsey's HSCA interview. Very interesting interview.

According to Lipsey's observation, there were three bullet entrance wounds, all from bullets originating from high and behind JFK.

One wound was, according to Lipsey, "3 or 4 inches above the neck". Sounds like the cowlick area? Lipsey stated this bullet "blew away part of his face" when it exited the front of his head.

One bullet entered high on the neck, and this is, presumably, the bullet he felt the autopsy doctors believed exited JFK's throat. Later in the interview, Lipsey waffled between high on the back of the neck and low on the back of the head as the precise location of this wound.

The third bullet, according to Lipsey, entered "low on the neck" and is the bullet that did not exit, from what Lipsey surmised from the doctors' comments. Lipsey stated the doctors believed the bullet entered the upper chest cavity, and while they did not find the bullet, they found "traces" , "pieces" and "particles" of this bullet, according to Lipsey. He further stated that finding this bullet is all the doctors spoke of for a great while, and that they spent two hours looking for it.

This is precisely what you would expect to find if a frangible bullet entered his back and, ultimately, his lung.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Chris Davidson]

Robert,

One of those relating to this area?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005ON3labE1kdlYzcVk/view?usp=sharing

chris

[Robert Prudhomme]

So, now we know that Lt. Richard Lipsey was not participating in the autopsy but, rather, was a non-medical officer in the audience, is it safe to assume Humes lied about there being no hole in the pleura, and that the back wound bullet very likely entered the top of JFK's right lung?

Edited November 12, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

Here is something from an interview with SA James Sibert of the FBI, who attended JFK's autopsy along with his partner SA Francis O'Neill:

"Sibert: Well I-that single-bullet theory-when they had me come up to the ARRB deposition there at College Park, I said, “Well before I come up there, I want you to know one thing. I’m not an advocate of the single-bullet theory.” I said, “I don’t believe it because I stood there two foot from where that bullet wound was in the back, the one that they eventually moved up to the base of the neck. I was there when Boswell made his face sheet and located that wound exactly as we described it in the FD 302.” And I said, “Furthermore, when they examined the clothing after it got into the Bureau, those bullet holes in the shirt and the coat were down 5 inches there. So there is no way that bullet could have gone that low then rise up and come out the front of the neck, zigzag and hit Connally and then end up pristine on a stretcher over there in Dallas.”

Law: You don’t believe in the single-bullet theory. Period.

Sibert: There is no way I will swallow that. They can’t put enough sugar on it for me to bite it. That bullet was too low in the back."

Wake up, America, you're dreaming.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Roy Wieselquist]

James Gordon #457--Thanks for that frame of Z190. I was citing Z190 by memory; for some reason, I thought that had been determined as the frame when JFK was first struck. But he is way back, and hasn't started to reach for his face or throat. He comes out from behind the sign about Z225, and has just got his hands up to his collar-bone. So he was hit around Z220. Is that a good approximation? 30 more frames down Elm is about 1 2/3 seconds. Travelling at 10 mph, about 15 ft / sec, so that would be about 25 feet farther down Elm from Z190? Thanks for helping me refine this.

Thanks a lot for that great diagram. I'm still checking it out.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Roy Wieselquist

[James R Gordon]

From James Gordon:

"Second:- At this point JFK is not looking forward but 90º to his right. That means the trachea entrance point has also moved to the right and is now no longer visible."

Hi James

I quite agree with you regarding the difficulties of a frontal throat shot exiting out the back wound, mainly because there is no vantage point in front of the limo high enough to account for the steep downward angle of such a wound.

However, regarding the trachea, there is an oddity about it that many people are unaware of. I have had this argument many times with believers of the SB.

While JFK is turned to his right, as you point out, it is his head that is severely turned, while his body and shoulders remain facing almost forward. Believe it or not, the trachea, at the level of the throat wound, does not turn with the head but, rather, remains in the same position.

This is critical in the case of the SBT but is a rather moot point in this case, as I believe even turning JFK's body 5° to the right would eliminate anything south of the TUP as a source for the bullet.

Yes Robert I agree. I had forgotten this point. I checked my own trachea as I turned to the right and it remained as it was.

[James R Gordon]

James Gordon #457--Thanks for that frame of Z190. I was citing Z190 by memory; for some reason, I thought that had been determined as the frame when JFK was first struck. But he is way back, and hasn't started to reach for his face or throat. He comes out from behind the sign about Z225, and has just got his hands up to his collar-bone. So he was hit around Z220. Is that a good approximation? 30 more frames down Elm is about 1 2/3 seconds. Travelling at 10 mph, about 15 ft / sec, so that would be about 25 feet farther down Elm from Z190? Thanks for helping me refine this.

Thanks a lot for that great diagram. I'm still checking it out.

Roy,

The map is not mine but Don Roberdeau's map. Duncan's keep a live link to the most recent update. If this link does not take you to the map you will find it in Dealey Plaza approx page 3.

Link to Don Roberdeau's map:-

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=31&pos=47

220 is a reasonable point of impact. I sometimes think it might be a little earlier. I diid write an article on JFK's wounds some time ago. You might want to look at it.

https://www.transferbigfiles.com/0a2eb94b-dd89-4cfc-b2a1-183dc0b76004/3L2Gk9o_L9ynaF0r1eF9cQ2

James.