Robert Prudhomme Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Thomas In other words, the answer to my question is "no", isn't it. Are you so naive that you cannot see what a perfect setup this would be to alter the statements of the witnesses interviewed by the FBI? Bob, I'm sorry that my "take" doesn't fit in with your grandiose theory. I guess I'm just not paranoid enough to buy into it. --Tommy Hang on a minute here. You're not getting out of this that easily. Here is what I take away from your story so far. The FBI took 73 statements which were signed by the persons giving the statements, then proceeded to make up finished copies of these statements but were just so gosh darn nice, they didn't make anyone hang around to sign the finished copies. And then, heck, why bother keeping the signed copies around, we'll just chuck them all out! Are you quite serious????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Thomas I suggest you speak to your local police dept., and ask them if they think this is a good way to take statements, and how long it would take an unsigned statement to get laughed out of court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Thomas You just don't "get it," do you, Bob. Answer: No, I haven't Bob. But based on what I've already tried to explain to you on this thread, I can be reasonably deduced that all of the originals were signed. And that five of them were later initaled, by the persons who gave them, for some minor corrections. Does the fact that I haven't seen them somehow "prove" that they were not signed? I give up. --Tommy It doesn't MATTER if the originals were signed or not, if no one outside of the FBI has ever seen them. If you get a witness to initial the original copy, and then type up a finished copy that does not get signed, why should the two contain the same material? Do you not recall Carolyn Arnold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Tommy Graves: if Baker & Truly were on the 2nd-floor landing while Adams & Styles were somewhere on the 3rd-floor landing, was there enough time for Truly to get inside the lunchroom before he could be seen by Adams & Styles, given that Truly had apparently continued straight ahead and started walking up the stairs to the 3rd floor, and then, realizing that Baker was no longer behind him, gone back down and entered the lunchroom itself? Truly testified he "was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me." He absolutely had time to get into the vestibule, and then mosey up to the lunchroom doorframe (with the vestibule door automatically closing a few seconds after he proceeded through the vestibule doorframe), before the young ladies arrived on the 2nd-floor landing. I don't think that it matters much whether Truly ever realized the young ladies were just up ahead of him. I strongly suspect he was laying a trap for Baker- that he knew Oswald was at the vestibule door, and that Baker would most likely find that suspicious, being that deep in the building, far from the parade. Truly's plan for a quickly-arriving cop was to get him in the lunchroom while the west elevator descended, and it worked to perfection. But Baker was so fast in his response, 15 seconds faster than anticipated, that Truly was forced into hyperdrive. This "perfection" may seem like circular logic, but more closely resembles a well-designed football play. Their mad dash to the freight elevators & 2nd-floor landing was over and done by as little as 50 seconds after the head shots. I think you are forgetting that many employees related that the wooden stairs in the TSBD were in quite bad repair, to the point the managers had asked the employees to minimize their use of them. As many treads were loose, it was also reported that the stairs were extremely noisy, and that it was possible to hear someone coming toward you on the stairs a long ways off. I find it hard to believe Truly or Baker would not have heard two women in 3" heels coming toward and past them at high speed. Aside from that, just how long do you think Truly was in the lunch room? Automatic door closers are not that fast, and I think Truly would have ID'ed LHO even before the door had a chance to close, and B & T were gone as soon as Truly okayed LHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) Thomas You just don't "get it," do you, Bob. Answer: No, I haven't Bob. But based on what I've already tried to explain to you on this thread, I can be reasonably deduced that all of the originals were signed. And that five of them were later initaled, by the persons who gave them, for some minor corrections. Does the fact that I haven't seen them somehow "prove" that they were not signed? I give up. --Tommy It doesn't MATTER if the originals were signed or not, if no one outside of the FBI has ever seen them. If you get a witness to initial the original copy, and then type up a finished copy that does not get signed, why should the two contain the same material? Do you not recall Carolyn Arnold? Dear Robert, We don't know for a fact that "no one outside of the FBI" has ever seen the originals, do we? Would it really matter if that were the case? I.e., that the originals were signed but nobody outside the FBI had actually seen those signatures ? Why would the Dallas FBI Special Agent in Charge go to the trouble of telling Hoover in that airtel that those five people (Carolyn Arnold, Mrs. R. E. Reid, Pauline Sanders, etc., had initialed the minor corrections that had been made to their statements? Just as an elaboration on the grand ruse? LOL --Tommy Edited December 8, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Thomas You just don't "get it," do you, Bob. Answer: No, I haven't Bob. But based on what I've already tried to explain to you on this thread, I can be reasonably deduced that all of the originals were signed. And that five of them were later initaled, by the persons who gave them, for some minor corrections. Does the fact that I haven't seen them somehow "prove" that they were not signed? I give up. --Tommy It doesn't MATTER if the originals were signed or not, if no one outside of the FBI has ever seen them. If you get a witness to initial the original copy, and then type up a finished copy that does not get signed, why should the two contain the same material? Do you not recall Carolyn Arnold? Dear Robert, We don't know for a fact that "no one outside of the FBI" has ever seen the originals, do we? Would it really matter if that were the case? I.e., that the originals were signed but nobody outside the FBI had actually seen those signatures ? Why would the Dallas FBI Special Agent in Charge go to the trouble of telling Hoover in that airtel that those five people (Carolyn Arnold, Mrs. R. E. Reid, Pauline Sanders, etc., had initialed the minor corrections that had been made to their statements? Just as an elaboration on the grand ruse? LOL --Tommy Why are statements normally signed, Thomas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) Thomas You just don't "get it," do you, Bob. Answer: No, I haven't Bob. But based on what I've already tried to explain to you on this thread, I can be reasonably deduced that all of the originals were signed. And that five of them were later initaled, by the persons who gave them, for some minor corrections. Does the fact that I haven't seen them somehow "prove" that they were not signed? I give up. --Tommy It doesn't MATTER if the originals were signed or not, if no one outside of the FBI has ever seen them. If you get a witness to initial the original copy, and then type up a finished copy that does not get signed, why should the two contain the same material? Do you not recall Carolyn Arnold? Dear Robert, We don't know for a fact that "no one outside of the FBI" has ever seen the originals, do we? Would it really matter if that were the case? I.e., that the originals were signed but nobody outside the FBI had actually seen those signatures ? Why would the Dallas FBI Special Agent in Charge go to the trouble of telling Hoover in that airtel that those five people (Carolyn Arnold, Mrs. R. E. Reid, Pauline Sanders, etc., had initialed the minor corrections that had been made to their statements? Just as an elaboration on the grand ruse? LOL --Tommy Why are statements normally signed, Thomas? Why should all signed statements to the FBI be necessarily made public? Why shouldn't witnessed copies suffice for common slobs like you and I? Is it the FBI's civic duty to "prove" to Joe Blow that the statements were, in fact, signed? The Warren Commission's duty? And even if they did, wouldn't some of us (hint hint) then automatically claim that the signatures had been forged? Why don't you contact Carolyn Arnold, or Mrs. Reid, or Pauline Sanders, or the two other people, and ask them if they signed the originals? (But if you do, I suggest that you not do it while they're entertaining guests during The Holidays. Because if you do, they'll probably just hang up on you.) --Tommy Edited December 8, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) Tommy Graves: if Baker & Truly were on the 2nd-floor landing while Adams & Styles were somewhere on the 3rd-floor landing, was there enough time for Truly to get inside the lunchroom before he could be seen by Adams & Styles, given that Truly had apparently continued straight ahead and started walking up the stairs to the 3rd floor, and then, realizing that Baker was no longer behind him, gone back down and entered the lunchroom itself? Truly testified he "was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me." He absolutely had time to get into the vestibule, and then mosey up to the lunchroom doorframe (with the vestibule door automatically closing a few seconds after he proceeded through the vestibule doorframe), before the young ladies arrived on the 2nd-floor landing. I don't think that it matters much whether Truly ever realized the young ladies were just up ahead of him. I strongly suspect he was laying a trap for Baker- that he knew Oswald was at the vestibule door, and that Baker would most likely find that suspicious, being that deep in the building, far from the parade. Truly's plan for a quickly-arriving cop was to get him in the lunchroom while the west elevator descended, and it worked to perfection. But Baker was so fast in his response, 15 seconds faster than anticipated, that Truly was forced into hyperdrive. This "perfection" may seem like circular logic, but more closely resembles a well-designed football play. Their mad dash to the freight elevators & 2nd-floor landing was over and done by as little as 50 seconds after the head shots. I think you are forgetting that many employees related that the wooden stairs in the TSBD were in quite bad repair, to the point the managers had asked the employees to minimize their use of them. As many treads were loose, it was also reported that the stairs were extremely noisy, and that it was possible to hear someone coming toward you on the stairs a long ways off. I find it hard to believe Truly or Baker would not have heard two women in 3" heels coming toward and past them at high speed. Aside from that, just how long do you think Truly was in the lunch room? Automatic door closers are not that fast, and I think Truly would have ID'ed LHO even before the door had a chance to close, and B & T were gone as soon as Truly okayed LHO. Dear Robert, I think the point is that Adams and Styles may not have been able to hear Baker and Truly coming up. The point is not that bad guy Truly was (probably) able to hear Adams and Styles coming down in their 3" heels. The theory is that innocent. naiive Baker was already inside the lunch room confronting Oswald, and that even if he did hear Adams and Styles, didn't concern himself with them because they were obviously women (wearing those noisy 3" heels) and he was looking for a man. --Tommy Edited December 8, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The other two "witnesses" who testified to seeing Baker and Truly run up the steps of the TSBD, 15-22 seconds after the last shot, are Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. As everyone knows, they were standing on the upper landing of the front steps of the TSBD. [...] [emphasis added by T. Graves] "As everybody knows"? What a joke. Ever heard of the Couch / Darnell GIFs? Who do you think those two guy are, walking down and then across Elm Street Extension? Abbot and Costello? --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) Thomas In other words, the answer to my question is "no", isn't it. Are you so naive that you cannot see what a perfect setup this would be to alter the statements of the witnesses interviewed by the FBI? Bob, I'm sorry that my "take" doesn't fit in with your grandiose theory. I guess I'm just not paranoid enough to buy into it. --Tommy Hang on a minute here. You're not getting out of this that easily. Here is what I take away from your story so far. The FBI took 73 statements which were signed by the persons giving the statements, then proceeded to make up finished copies of these statements but were just so gosh darn nice, they didn't make anyone hang around to sign the finished copies. And then, heck, why bother keeping the signed copies around, we'll just chuck them all out! Are you quite serious????? Dear Bobby, I said they might even have been routinely destroyed by now, some fifty years after the assassination. I don't know if they have or not , Bobby. Maybe the Dallas FBI still has them, or the National Archives? Why don't you try to find them? I won't, because I'm satisfied in my own mind that they were probably signed. I can see no other reason for the Dallas FBI Special Agent in Charge to send Hoover an airtel a short time later informing Hoover that some minor mistakes had been corrected in five of them, and that the persons who had made those five statements had initialed the corrections (which were made in the originals, of course). The way I see it, if they initialed them later, then they must have signed them originally. I'm not going to argue with you anymore about this, Bobby. You can declare yourself "the winner" if you want to. But at least the other members of the forum have had an opportunity to see my "take" on this signature issue now, and they can decide for themselves. And, as I understand it, Jon G. Tidd is now on record as having said that it's possible that Baker ran right up the steps, as suggested by the Couch / Darnell film. Ciao. --Tommy Edited December 8, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Thomas You just don't "get it," do you, Bob. Answer: No, I haven't Bob. But based on what I've already tried to explain to you on this thread, I can be reasonably deduced that all of the originals were signed. And that five of them were later initaled, by the persons who gave them, for some minor corrections. Does the fact that I haven't seen them somehow "prove" that they were not signed? I give up. --Tommy It doesn't MATTER if the originals were signed or not, if no one outside of the FBI has ever seen them. If you get a witness to initial the original copy, and then type up a finished copy that does not get signed, why should the two contain the same material? Do you not recall Carolyn Arnold? Dear Robert, We don't know for a fact that "no one outside of the FBI" has ever seen the originals, do we? Would it really matter if that were the case? I.e., that the originals were signed but nobody outside the FBI had actually seen those signatures ? Why would the Dallas FBI Special Agent in Charge go to the trouble of telling Hoover in that airtel that those five people (Carolyn Arnold, Mrs. R. E. Reid, Pauline Sanders, etc., had initialed the minor corrections that had been made to their statements? Just as an elaboration on the grand ruse? LOL --Tommy Why are statements normally signed, Thomas? Why should all signed statements to the FBI be necessarily made public? Why shouldn't witnessed copies suffice for common slobs like you and I? Is it the FBI's civic duty to "prove" to Joe Blow that the statements were, in fact, signed? The Warren Commission's duty? And even if they did, wouldn't some of us (hint hint) then automatically claim that the signatures had been forged? Why don't you contact Carolyn Arnold, or Mrs. Reid, or Pauline Sanders, or the two other people, and ask them if they signed the originals? (But if you do, I suggest that you not do it while they're entertaining guests during The Holidays. Because if you do, they'll probably just hang up on you.) --Tommy Why should the FBI signed statements be available to the public? Thomas, are you unaware of the fact that most of the bogus evidence in this case was delivered by the FBI??? Are you forgetting we have spent the last 50 years attempting to unravel a government coverup of the true nature of JFK's murder? Sometimes I seriously wonder about you, Thomas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) Tommy Graves: if Baker & Truly were on the 2nd-floor landing while Adams & Styles were somewhere on the 3rd-floor landing, was there enough time for Truly to get inside the lunchroom before he could be seen by Adams & Styles, given that Truly had apparently continued straight ahead and started walking up the stairs to the 3rd floor, and then, realizing that Baker was no longer behind him, gone back down and entered the lunchroom itself? Truly testified he "was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me." He absolutely had time to get into the vestibule, and then mosey up to the lunchroom doorframe (with the vestibule door automatically closing a few seconds after he proceeded through the vestibule doorframe), before the young ladies arrived on the 2nd-floor landing. I don't think that it matters much whether Truly ever realized the young ladies were just up ahead of him. I strongly suspect he was laying a trap for Baker- that he knew Oswald was at the vestibule door, and that Baker would most likely find that suspicious, being that deep in the building, far from the parade. Truly's plan for a quickly-arriving cop was to get him in the lunchroom while the west elevator descended, and it worked to perfection. But Baker was so fast in his response, 15 seconds faster than anticipated, that Truly was forced into hyperdrive. This "perfection" may seem like circular logic, but more closely resembles a well-designed football play. Their mad dash to the freight elevators & 2nd-floor landing was over and done by as little as 50 seconds after the head shots. I think you are forgetting that many employees related that the wooden stairs in the TSBD were in quite bad repair, to the point the managers had asked the employees to minimize their use of them. As many treads were loose, it was also reported that the stairs were extremely noisy, and that it was possible to hear someone coming toward you on the stairs a long ways off. I find it hard to believe Truly or Baker would not have heard two women in 3" heels coming toward and past them at high speed. Aside from that, just how long do you think Truly was in the lunch room? Automatic door closers are not that fast, and I think Truly would have ID'ed LHO even before the door had a chance to close, and B & T were gone as soon as Truly okayed LHO. Dear Robert, I think the point is that Adams and Styles may not have been able to hear Baker and Truly coming up. The point is not that bad guy Truly was (probably) able to hear Adams and Styles coming down in their 3" heels. The theory is that innocent. naiive Baker was already inside the lunch room confronting Oswald, and that even if he did hear Adams and Styles, didn't concern himself with them because they were obviously women (wearing those noisy 3" heels) and he was looking for a man. --Tommy Thomas Carefully read this excerpt from Roy Truly's testimony to the Warren Commission: "Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has the glass in it. Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards the third floor there? Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing. Mr. BELIN. What did you see? Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24. Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom. Mr. TRULY. That is right. Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23. Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open? Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember. Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember? Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed. Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it? Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way. Mr. BELIN. What did you see? Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him? Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door. Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly. Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald? All right. You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497. What did you see or hear the officer say or do? Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes." Mr. BELIN. And then what happened? Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor. Mr. BELIN. All right." Two things are immediately apparent here. 1. Roy Truly did not enter the lunch room. Nor did he let the vestibule door close behind him. According to Truly, "I opened the door back and leaned in." I take from this that he meant he was still out in the landing and he leaned through the doorway. Why did he not go in and allow the door to close behind him? Simple. Baker and Oswald were right in front of him in the lunch room doorway, and he did not have to go in any further. So, if the vestibule door was open, how did Adams and Styles get by him without being noticed? 2. From Truly's description of events, it sounds like Truly barely got the door open and had leaned in when Baker turned and asked him "This man work here?" to which he answered "Yes". Then, according to Truly, "Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor." So, how long do you think Truly had his head stuck through the vestibule door? How long does it take two men to exchange five words? Five seconds? Maybe six? Even if Styles and Adams had sneakers on, instead of 3" heels, could they have crossed the 2nd floor landing in 5 seconds? I hate to say it but, the "Adams and Styles snuck by Truly and Adams while they were in the lunch room" theory falls apart very quickly when we see that Truly did not go through the vestibule door, and allow it to close behind him. Edited December 8, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The other two "witnesses" who testified to seeing Baker and Truly run up the steps of the TSBD, 15-22 seconds after the last shot, are Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. As everyone knows, they were standing on the upper landing of the front steps of the TSBD. [...] [emphasis added by T. Graves] "As everybody knows"? What a joke. Ever heard of the Couch / Darnell GIFs? Who do you think those two guy are, walking down and then across Elm Street Extension? Abbot and Costello? --Tommy At what point do you see them crossing the extension? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) The other two "witnesses" who testified to seeing Baker and Truly run up the steps of the TSBD, 15-22 seconds after the last shot, are Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. As everyone knows, they were standing on the upper landing of the front steps of the TSBD. [...] [emphasis added by T. Graves] "As everybody knows"? What a joke. Ever heard of the Couch / Darnell GIFs? Who do you think those two guy are, walking down and then across Elm Street Extension? Abbot and Costello? --Tommy At what point do you see them crossing the extension? I've already told you Bob. But you said that that very short GIF I posted for you was "vague." Remember? Maybe you weren't wearing your glasses. Or maybe it's just that I'm able to see things you aren't able to see? Like that possible "Gloria Calvery" by the Thornton Freeway sign in Altgens 6, or Roy Truly off to the right of the steps in Wiegman, not far from Jeraldean Reid? For example? So let's not argue about it ok? Because it's just too darn ... "vague." Isn't it. --Tommy PS But I do have a confession for you, of sorts. In that "vague," very short GIF which I posted for you a few days ago, it looks to me as though Shelley is crossing Elm Street Extension, while maybe, just maybe, Lovelady continues walking towards the railway yard / parking lot. It's too hard to tell, but gosh ... wouldn't that be exciting?! Edited December 8, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 "SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly? Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us." So much for "the-women-were-seen-but-Baker-was-looking-for-a-man" theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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