Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...

[Tom Neal]

DUPE!

Edited June 8, 2016 by Tom Neal

[Larry Hancock]

Sandy, Martino absolutely knew about an assassination conspiracy, he served as a courier before the fact on his trips to Dallas - this was not some sort of deduction made after the fact, he knew JFK would be killed (or at least that the plan was to kill him) in Texas. He was not told a lot of tactical detail but he also knew Oswald was not the shooter and that he was being set up as the patsy.

[Sandy Larsen]

By "educated guess" I meant that Martino wasn't actually told that JFK would be killed, but rather he figured it out based upon what he learned in his dealings. I read that his involvement was that of paymaster... actually more like a courier of payments (I cannot recall the term used to describe his role). That would have put him in a position of potentially learning a lot, depending on how much each of his payees let slip. He could have pieced things together and concluded that JFK was being targeted.

Why are you so certain that Martino wasn't "told" that JFK was going to be assassinated? He was closely associated with David Morales and his group who surely knew. Is it because you believe Martino was wrong about JDT's murder being planned?

I am not certain. I was just explaining what I meant by "educated guess."

I believe that Martino's statement that JFK was to be assassinated in Dallas was an educated guess, but I'm definitely not certain of that. He may have been told. Even if so, the person who told him may have been making an educated guess himself.

The reason I tend not to believe that Martino knew for a fact that an assassination attempt was going to be made is because I believe that the planning was done by the CIA, and the CIA employs and is very good at compartmentalization. Compartmentalization is how the F-117 stealth fighter was kept secret for so many years despite the fact that hundreds of people worked on the project.

[Sandy Larsen]

Sandy, Martino absolutely knew about an assassination conspiracy, he served as a courier before the fact on his trips to Dallas - this was not some sort of deduction made after the fact, he knew JFK would be killed (or at least that the plan was to kill him) in Texas. He was not told a lot of tactical detail but he also knew Oswald was not the shooter and that he was being set up as the patsy.

Larry,

How do you know that Martino was told beforehand about the planned assassination? And was told by someone who actually knew himself and didn't just have suspicions?

[Gene Kelly]

Jim:

Great thread. Westbrook has always drawn my attention for many reasons. Sounds like his later (not too much later) 'escape' to Saigon was part of the beginnings of PHOENIX which others (like Morales) appeared to have been involved with. I found it notable that Armstrong states: "Capt Westbrook hired Roscoe White only two months before the assassination". More coincidence (right?)

Gene

[Larry Hancock]

Sandy, have you read Someone Would Have Talked or the synopsis of events from his son Ed- including his remark in advance about JFK being shot during the trip to Texas? If you have and want something more, great, if not I would refer you to the book for details and also to his the statements given to the HSCA by his friends after his death.

[Sandy Larsen]

Sandy, have you read Someone Would Have Talked or the synopsis of events from his son Ed- including his remark in advance about JFK being shot during the trip to Texas? If you have and want something more, great, if not I would refer you to the book for details and also to his the statements given to the HSCA by his friends after his death.

Can you just give me some proof of what you said? That "Martino absolutely knew about an assassination conspiracy..." before it was pulled off.

I happen to believe Martino was involved in the conspiracy. I also believe that he would not have been told more than what he needed to know to perform his duty.

I have no reason to believe he didn't have suspicions. But where's the proof that he actually knew for sure?

[Larry Hancock]

Sandy, I got to great length offering proof in the book, its not the sort of thing you can do with a couple of sentences on a forum....and I'm not maintaining it was absolute. Some basics are the fact that he told his family JFK would be killed on the trip to Texas, before JFK arrived in Dallas. He kept his son home from school that day, very probably to make sure Ed didn't blurt out what his Dad had said. He had never done that before. Those were both things done before the assassination. Afterwards he told two of his closest friends, before his death, of his involvement and his prior knowledge...obviously that is after the fact. There is a good deal more context to this and reason to believe that he had prior knowledge but I'll leave you with those for starters. And certainly he was told only a limited amount, he never maintained he knew all that much other than what his role was and what the goal was, which was to deal with JFK's treasonous acts including his secret negotiations with Castro.

[Jim Hargrove]

But Jim, isn't it true that in every one of the cases you cite, the person identified as LEE Oswald could very well have been yet another Oswald? A third member of the Oswald look-alike project. I believe they could have been. Prove me wrong.

A third Oswald might be useful in explaining the evidence from late Sept./early Oct. 1963, when so much “Oswald” stuff was happening (Sylvia Odio, Mexico City, Alice Texas, and more). Robert Groden had a chapter in his book called “Too Many Oswalds.”

For the most part, though, the evidence seems to show there were two—and just two--young men going by the name “Lee Harvey Oswald.” Sporadically, they lead parallel lives. (The idea, I think, was to give Russian-speaking Harvey a taste of American-born Lee’s life so that Harvey could successfully assume the role of a native-born American during, say, a false defection to the Soviet Union).

The Marine Corps records are particularly helpful here, in part because the USMC keeps pretty careful records, and also because this is where Harvey assumed Lee’s identity in preparation for the “defection,” which was just months away from the conclusion of Harvey’s Marine service.

Although they are sometimes combined and fudged (for obvious reasons), USMC records clearly show two distinct “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” traveling with two distinct groups of soldiers. One (Lee) sometimes got drunk and got involved in various sexual peccadillos, the other (Harvey) didn’t. One (Harvey) was sent aboard the U.S.S. Skagit to Formosa (Taiwan) while the other (Lee) remained in Atsugi, Japan, where he was treated repeatedly for a venereal disease. One (Lee) shot himself in the left arm just above the elbow with a pistol. The other (Harvey) didn’t.

There are two easy ways to get to know the differing personalities of Lee and Harvey Oswald. One is through the Marine Corps records. Read about them HERE. The other way is to read the descriptions by Texas Employment Commission employee Laura Kittrell, who interviewed both Oswalds in some depth, soon realized that she was talking to two different “Lee Harvey Oswalds,” and then went on to compare and contrast their personalities, pretty much matching what you would expect from the USMC records of the two young men. See a brief overview of Ms. Kittrell’s observations HERE.

[Jim Hargrove]

Jim:

Great thread. Westbrook has always drawn my attention for many reasons. Sounds like his later (not too much later) 'escape' to Saigon was part of the beginnings of PHOENIX which others (like Morales) appeared to have been involved with. I found it notable that Armstrong states: "Capt Westbrook hired Roscoe White only two months before the assassination". More coincidence (right?)

Gene

Thanks, Gene. My guess is that three Dallas cops were in on the set-up of “Lee Harvey Oswald:” Westbrook, Croy, and Roscoe White.

[Sandy Larsen]

Sandy, I got to great length offering proof in the book, its not the sort of thing you can do with a couple of sentences on a forum....and I'm not maintaining it was absolute. Some basics are the fact that he told his family JFK would be killed on the trip to Texas, before JFK arrived in Dallas. He kept his son home from school that day, very probably to make sure Ed didn't blurt out what his Dad had said. He had never done that before. Those were both things done before the assassination. Afterwards he told two of his closest friends, before his death, of his involvement and his prior knowledge...obviously that is after the fact. There is a good deal more context to this and reason to believe that he had prior knowledge but I'll leave you with those for starters. And certainly he was told only a limited amount, he never maintained he knew all that much other than what his role was and what the goal was, which was to deal with JFK's treasonous acts including his secret negotiations with Castro.

Okay, fair enough. I need to read your book to understand the strength of the evidence.

By the way -- since you're the Martino expert -- do you know if Martino approved of the assassination? Did he hate Kennedy and want him dead?

[Larry Hancock]

At the time Martino most definitely approved - he and the others already believed that JFK had betrayed the exiles (whose cause Martino was very involved with) at both the Bay of Pigs and the Missile Crisis. When he and the others were told that JFK was beginning back channel negotiations with Castro which would end the boycott they all considered it to be treasonous behavior and viewed the President as a threat to the nation. Some years later there are suggestions that Martino began to feel that he and some of the others had been misled and used, most likely being promised a subsequent US invasion of Cuba, but as far as I know he never expressed any specific regret over the assassination.

[Sandy Larsen]

At the time Martino most definitely approved - he and the others already believed that JFK had betrayed the exiles (whose cause Martino was very involved with) at both the Bay of Pigs and the Missile Crisis. When he and the others were told that JFK was beginning back channel negotiations with Castro which would end the boycott they all considered it to be treasonous behavior and viewed the President as a threat to the nation. Some years later there are suggestions that Martino began to feel that he and some of the others had been misled and used, most likely being promised a subsequent US invasion of Cuba, but as far as I know he never expressed any specific regret over the assassination.

Thanks Larry.

[Sandy Larsen]

But Jim, isn't it true that in every one of the cases you cite, the person identified as LEE Oswald could very well have been yet another Oswald? A third member of the Oswald look-alike project. I believe they could have been. Prove me wrong.

A third Oswald might be useful in explaining the evidence from late Sept./early Oct. 1963, when so much “Oswald” stuff was happening (Sylvia Odio, Mexico City, Alice Texas, and more). Robert Groden had a chapter in his book called “Too Many Oswalds.”

For the most part, though, the evidence seems to show there were two—and just two--young men going by the name “Lee Harvey Oswald.” Sporadically, they lead parallel lives. (The idea, I think, was to give Russian-speaking Harvey a taste of American-born Lee’s life so that Harvey could successfully assume the role of a native-born American during, say, a false defection to the Soviet Union).

The Marine Corps records are particularly helpful here, in part because the USMC keeps pretty careful records, and also because this is where Harvey assumed Lee’s identity in preparation for the “defection,” which was just months away from the conclusion of Harvey’s Marine service.

Although they are sometimes combined and fudged (for obvious reasons), USMC records clearly show two distinct “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” traveling with two distinct groups of soldiers. One (Lee) sometimes got drunk and got involved in various sexual peccadillos, the other (Harvey) didn’t. One (Harvey) was sent aboard the U.S.S. Skagit to Formosa (Taiwan) while the other (Lee) remained in Atsugi, Japan, where he was treated repeatedly for a venereal disease. One (Lee) shot himself in the left arm just above the elbow with a pistol. The other (Harvey) didn’t.

There are two easy ways to get to know the differing personalities of Lee and Harvey Oswald. One is through the Marine Corps records. Read about them HERE. The other way is to read the descriptions by Texas Employment Commission employee Laura Kittrell, who interviewed both Oswalds in some depth, soon realized that she was talking to two different “Lee Harvey Oswalds,” and then went on to compare and contrast their personalities, pretty much matching what you would expect from the USMC records of the two young men. See a brief overview of Ms. Kittrell’s observations HERE.

Thanks Jim.

I commented some time ago that the story of Lee Harvey Oswald's driver's license being turned in should be used when dealing with doubters of the Harvey & Lee theory. I feel the same way about Laura Kittrell's statement. Both are compelling and easy to understand.

[Jim Hargrove]

The Marine Corps records, though they take a little more time to go through, are also compelling and relatively easy to understand. I think they offer the best proof of all of two "Lee Harvey Oswalds" living partly parallel lives. The best account is in John's book, Harvey and Lee, though a decent taste of it can be found on my website here.