A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I checked out Greg Parker's arguments. Here they are along with my responses:

1. Greg contacted a former Skagit crew member, who reported back the following:
   
   "Skagit had a fully equipped and staffed sick bay. Treatment for NSU (Non-specific urethritis) and the Clap ( Gonorrhea) only required Penicillin and restriction to the ship (no liberty)."
   
   Well there's no surprise there. I've already reported that today's Skagit-class ships have a sick bay and are staffed with a couple of corpsmen, but no doctors. (And I assumed that they were no different 50 years ago.) Greg's contact mentions no doctor. I said that, if there is no doctor, there likely would be no lab. Greg's contact mentions no lab. That they have penicillin is no surprise to me. I'm sure they have several other commonly prescribed drugs on board as well.
    
2. Greg claims that a specific WWII era Australian ship -- the Whang Pu -- had "accessory services such as those for pathological work."
   
   The link to the source doesn't work, so I couldn't confirm it. But it's irrelevant anyway. Just because the Australian government provides something doesn't mean the American government does as well.
    
3. Greg says that the "[medical] record for October 6 has the hand-written notation that Oswald had been 'doing heavy lifting recently.' Oswald’s duties at Atsugi required no such heavy lifting. That was not the case when the Skagit docked at Kaohsiung where the work was all heavy lifting." And therefore this indicates that Oswald was indeed aboard the ship during the period of treatment.
   
   I'm sorry, but I cannot believe that Greg could possibly know whether or not Oswald did any heavy lifting while at Atsugi Naval Base.
    
4. Greg says, " When you go to a doctor, by the reasoning of these people [Hargrove,etc.], your address should be noted as the address where the consultation took place. "
   
   I find it odd that Greg put the least amount of effort in this, his final argument. Because it is the only one that makes some sense.
   
   He's essentially saying that the stamped-on code, "NAS Navy 3835" in Oswald's case, refers to the patient's address, not the address of the facility treating him. In other words, where the patient is stationed. I don't know whether that is true or not, but it does seem reasonable.

So I plan on taking #4 off the list of evidence I made a few days ago.

However, first I would like Jim Hargrove to weigh in on this. Specifically about Oswald's treatment at the other hospital near Atsugi Naval Base. That hospital has a different four-digit designation. If that hospital's number was stamped on Oswald's medical record, that would tell us that the number designates where the patient is treated. If, on the other hand, the Atsugi 3835 number was stamped on the record, that would tel us that the number designates where the patient is stationed.

What say you, Jim?

 

Sandy,

Sorry for the rushed post, but I have very limited time today.

It will probably take hours to look through all the USMC medical stuff available to see if there is anything resembling what you’re looking for.  But it is hardly necessary, because it’s clear that these records were created for a patient at the Atsugi hospital, not on a boat.

Most of these records we’ve been examining were published as part of the Donabedian Exhibit by the Warren Commission.  Donabedian testified on May 1, 1964, and clearly indicated that Oswald was not on a boat when these tests were made.  (See boldfaced remarks below.)

Mr. ELY - I would like at this point to refer you to pages 152 through 156 of this exhibit. 
I shall let you proceed to explain what these mean without questioning. 
Captain DONABEDIAN - On 9- 10- 58, slight burning on urination. "Has urethral discharge." 
Mr. ELY - Well, if you cannot read it, there is no point-- -- 
Captain DONABEDIAN - Then they took a smear. 
Mr. ELY - What is the purpose of a smear? 
Captain DONABEDIAN - A smear is to diagnose the cause of the infection, the cause of the discharge, to see what type of bacteria was present. 
And on 9- 23- 58, report of a urethral discharge sensitivity test. A culture was taken and reported staphylococcal hemolytic. And the sensitivity test to determine what drug we have that will affect that particular bacteria that is causing this. And erythromycin was the drug of choice. 

On page 154, on 16 September 58 he evidently went to one of the outlying dispensaries, and they said "Send to the mainside for smear," which means he was sent to the main side dispensary to get the smear taken. 

September 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They sent him to the lab for a smear. 
And here it says, "Gram negative, diplococci intra- and extra- cellular morphological resembling neisseria gonococci." 
Mr. ELY - Could you tell us, Doctor, generally, what that means? 
Captain DONABEDIAN - Well, this resembles the gonococcus bacteria which causes gonorrhea. And it says here morphologically resembling this germ-- since the only legal diagnosis would be to have a culture made to prove this or disprove it. 
And here for his treatment they gave him penicillin, it looks like 400,000units, four times a day, for 3 days, and said "Return on Monday in the p.m., for a repeat smear."
Then on September 30, 1958, "Still has profuse discharge, somewhat clearer,received course of penicillin ending 2 days ago." 
In other words, he had finished getting his penicillin. So for this profuse discharge, they treated him with chloromycetin capsules, one, four times a day,and return Monday for smear and culture. Then on September 22-- -- 
Mr. ELY - I believe the last item was September 20. 

The medical records continue to show that, while Harvey Oswald was en route to Taiwan, LEE Oswald was still at Atsugi Sept. 20 and 22 and 23.  A smear and culture was taken on the 22nd and the culture results of the 23rd indicated the presence of “micrococcus pyogenes vas aurens.”   You think that was done on a boat?

Are we seriously to believe that the culture and  the “micrococcus pyogenes vas aurens” lab result were obtained by a couple of marine graduates of a first aid course or two aboard the Skagit?  Seriously?

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

Sandy, according to Wikipedia the Skagit was scrapped in 1974.

Now here it comes. Larsen's reply will be that the boat is really a black pistol. But really, he was just kidding about it being afloat still.

Heh heh.

Yep Larsen is one heck of a science man. 

Michael,

Give it up already.  You don't have to stoop to the level of a Bill Miller to make your "points".

--  Tommy

PS  Would you be behaving like this if Sandy hadn't prooved you to be sadly mistaken about "Neck Scratcher" and "Gangly Guy" in that Black Op Radio video?

You weren't like this before that.

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Are we seriously to believe that the culture and  the “micrococcus pyogenes vas aurens” lab result were obtained by a couple of marine graduates of a first aid course or two aboard the Skagit?  Seriously?

Jim,

As I said, corpsmen might be  trained to do simple smear test, but very unlikely a culture & sensitivity test. That would be something done by a medical lab.

But when all is said and done, none of this really matters. Because as you said... and I see it now... that Sept. 16 smear test was performed at a Mainside lab. In the row right above the one stamped "Sept. 16, 1958," is the handwritten note "to mainside for smear." Mainside is the name often used for the part of a military base where administrative offices, shops, hospitals, and housing are located. Had Oswald been at sea, it would have been very difficult indeed for his sample to be taken to a Mainside lab.

See where it says "to mainside for smear?" And "To Lab for Smear?"
 

 

In this forum, a G.S. Jeziorski wrote:

"I was an Aerial Photo Tech with the squadron (Every man a tiger) from 1956 to 1958 when it was disbanded and reformed stateside as VMCJ-1 at El Toro. Being a short-timer, I was temporarily assigned to the Naval photo lab at mainside Atsugi until we were sent to Taiwan where I served until September, 1958. I then was sent stateside to await discharge."

Does anybody think this guy was onboard a ship at sea when he was assigned to the Naval photo lab at Mainside Atsugi?

I think this issue has been settled

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Michael Walton]

Tom I  just  want  to  try to get to some semblance  of  the  truth that's  all.

I'm  not  going  to  call  you  out on  this  thread but look what YOU even called this thread. Even you  have to  know  that this story is straining  credibility or you wouldn't  have  called it a couple  of  gems.

I'll  move on from Larsen seeing a black pistol  in one of the old guy's  hand and then making a joke of it. And  yes he did prove me wrong  on neck scratcher and gangly guy.

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

As I said, corpsmen might be  trained to do simple smear test, but very unlikely a culture & sensitivity test. That would be something done by a medical lab.

But when all is said and done, none of this really matters. Because as you said... and I see it now... that Sept. 16 smear test was performed at a Mainside lab. In the row right above the one stamped "Sept. 16, 1958," is the handwritten note "to mainside for smear." Mainside is the name often used for the part of a military base where administrative offices, shops, hospitals, and housing are located. Had Oswald been at sea, it would have been very difficult indeed for his sample to be taken to a Mainside lab.

See where it says "to mainside for smear?" And "To Lab for Smear?"
 

 

In this forum, a G.S. Jeziorski wrote:

"I was an Aerial Photo Tech with the squadron (Every man a tiger) from 1956 to 1958 when it was disbanded and reformed stateside as VMCJ-1 at El Toro. Being a short-timer, I was temporarily assigned to the Naval photo lab at mainside Atsugi until we were sent to Taiwan where I served until September, 1958. I then was sent stateside to await discharge."

Does anybody think this guy was onboard a ship at sea when he was assigned to the Naval photo lab at Mainside Atsugi?

I think this issue has been settled

 

 

Exactly.  Lee Oswald was clearly at the Atsugi Hospital personally on 9/16/58, just as Donabedian testified. Harvey Oswald’s ship sailed out of Yokosuka (near Atsugi) on 9/14/58 and Lee Oswald was personally at the Atsugi hospital two days later… and a number of days immediately thereafter. Two Oswalds!

 

 

This isn’t rocket science.  It’s just the endless static from Parnell/Parker and their little Amen Corner that makes it seem difficult.  It isn’t.

I think the issue has been settled as well.  I’ll start in with another gem from the H&L website tomorrow.  Megathanks to Tommy G for starting this thread.

 

[Michael Walton]

What was the impostor's service number? Like it shows the real Oswald's service  number on that piece of paper?

If  you  can show  that Oswald II had his own service no. then it would show a little more proof of a living breathing  person was walking around.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

49 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I think the issue has been settled as well.  I’ll start in with another gem from the H&L website tomorrow.  Megathanks to Tommy G for starting this thread.

There you have it. The issue has been settled and there were two Oswalds, despite the scientific evidence that says otherwise. I assume that the H&L gang will be taking this to Morley or some other journalist with connections to major media and I would love to be a fly on the wall when you make your case. If not, what is all of the hubbub about? Is this just a pastime or are you actually trying to accomplish something with this? But before doing that, you might want to consider the following alternate explanation. There are other explanations you know, even if it is just that the records are wrong. This is based mostly on Parker's book:

September 14, 1958: LHO is on the USS Skagit bound for the South China Sea. He is treated onboard the Skagit for VD symptoms (or perhaps in an onshore facility while in Hong Kong and Taiwan) from this date through the 29^th.

September 19: Arrives at Taiwan where he does heavy lifting of supplies.

September 24: Arrives in Hong Kong.

October 5: LHO is sent to Atsugi (means of transport unknown) following the guard duty incident from Epstein’s book.

October 6: LHO is hospitalized (for VD symptoms). Notation of “heavy lifting” made.

October 13: LHO is released.

November 2: LHO departs Yokosuka for San Francisco arriving November 15.

 This scenario (or something close) would explain the situation reasonably since we know from the totality of the evidence there were not 2 Oswalds.

Edited April 3, 2017 by W. Tracy Parnell

[Jim Hargrove]

No, Tracy, you and Parker conveniently leave out of your “timeline” the in-person visit of Lee Oswald to several different buildings at the USMC Atsugi medical complex on Sept. 16, 1958, two days after Harvey Oswald left for Taiwan aboard the Skagit.  You also leave out Lee’s visits on Sept. 20, 22, and 23rd.  Why is that? The Sept. 16 visit is quite well known.  Leaving that inconvenient date off a timeline suggests someone is trying to hide the truth.

To Michael Walton: You really need to try to understand what it is you’re trying to debunk.  If you simply looked at the USMC docs presented in thread,  you  would see how both Oswalds had the same service numbers.  How could it be otherwise?  The Agency’s plan was for one fellow (Russian-speaking Harvey) to take the place of the other (American-born Lee) to fool the Soviets into thinking he (Harvey) had been a real Marine with real secrets to divulge.  How would that possibly work if the two young men had different ID numbers?

[Thomas Graves]

4 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Tom I  just  want  to  try to get to some semblance  of  the  truth that's  all.

I'm  not  going  to  call  you  out on  this  thread but look what YOU even called this thread. Even you  have to  know  that this story is straining  credibility or you wouldn't  have  called it a couple  of  gems.

I'll  move on from Larsen seeing a black pistol  in one of the old guy's  hand and then making a joke of it. And  yes he did prove me wrong  on neck scratcher and gangly guy.

 

Threads are not people, Mr. Gorsuch.  Sandy Larsen is.  And not only that, Sandy's not even crazy, as you seem to be insinuating he is.

Nor are corporations "people," or money "speech." (In case you're wondering "Wherein lies the implied analogy, above?")

--  Tommy

Edited April 4, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[W. Tracy Parnell]

38 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

No, Tracy, you and Parker conveniently leave out of your “timeline” the in-person visit of Lee Oswald to several different buildings at the USMC Atsugi medical complex on Sept. 16, 1958, two days after Harvey Oswald left for Taiwan aboard the Skagit.  You also leave out Lee’s visits on Sept. 20, 22, and 23rd.  Why is that? The Sept. 16 visit is quite well known.  Leaving that inconvenient date off a timeline suggests someone is trying to hide the truth.

To Michael Walton: You really need to try to understand what it is you’re trying to debunk.  If you simply looked at the USMC docs presented in thread,  you  would see how both Oswalds had the same service numbers.  How could it be otherwise?  The Agency’s plan was for one fellow (Russian-speaking Harvey) to take the place of the other (American-born Lee) to fool the Soviets into thinking he (Harvey) had been a real Marine with real secrets to divulge.  How would that possibly work if the two young men had different ID numbers?

I said the 14th through the 29th he was treated either on ship or at  facilities in Hong Kong and Taiwan. The issue will probably never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction but the scenario that myself and Parker present matches the totality of the evidence, while your scenario cherry picks a few puzzling incidents. And you haven't answered my other question-when will you guys be going to the media and announcing you have solved the JFK assassination?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

BTW, Parker found the following on the Skagit website:

During the Vietnam War, Dr. Rexrode served in the Navy, both aboard the USS Skagit in the Medical Dept, and at North Island Naval Station.

http://www.ussskagit.org/rexrode.html

[Michael Walton]

To Michael Walton: You really need to try to understand what it is you’re trying to debunk.  If you simply looked at the USMC docs presented in thread,  you  would see how both Oswalds had the same service numbers.  How could it be otherwise?

That's  exactly my point. So was it the military  who started this whole clone caper even going back several years when he was a pre-teen? Or was it a spy team working  in conjunction  with the military?

And if neither entity wanted this  clone caper to be discovered  I think they would have done  a  much  better  job covering  their tracks. Instead  they just left two clones walking  around  letting  duplicate  records be generated  and to be discovered  years later by John Armstrong.

[Michael Walton]

Ok Tom pour it on. You're  just mad because  I  showed you  up a few times on this board. That's  fine. You can't  deny I,  like you  and  others, have added both good  points  and bad on EF.

Another  person got what  I  mean when I  use the  word crazy. I'm  surprised  you  don't  get  it neither but whatever.

And now we're  back to name calling? Huh uh. I can take  it. Being  deaf all my life and living  with that stigma I've  been  called  a  lot worst.

 

[Michael Walton]

To the HL believers...

This is hardly a case closed case. Another  big  thing  for  me  is  what was the motive  of  all  this  cloning  to get up to 11.22?

A much simpler  narrative  is Oswald  was a low level operative being  sent to Russia and back. When  he returned he had a so-called invisible  hand gently pushing him along until he starts working  at TSBD.

The HL story  just seems too fantastical  to believe.

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

To Michael Walton: You really need to try to understand what it is you’re trying to debunk.  If you simply looked at the USMC docs presented in thread,  you  would see how both Oswalds had the same service numbers.  How could it be otherwise?

That's  exactly my point. So was it the military  who started this whole clone caper even going back several years when he was a pre-teen? Or was it a spy team working  in conjunction  with the military?

And if neither entity wanted this  clone caper to be discovered  I think they would have done  a  much  better  job covering  their tracks. Instead  they just left two clones walking  around  letting  duplicate  records be generated  and to be discovered  years later by John Armstrong.

This was clearly an intelligence operation which sought some cooperation from the USMC.  It’s no secret that CIA people sometimes posed as military personnel.  From a newspaper article I posted several pages back in this thread:

An American field officer with a distinguished combat career speaks angrily about "that man at headquarters in Saigon wearing a colonel's uniform." He means the man is a CIA agent, and he can't understand what he is doing at U.S. military headquarters here, unless it is spying on other Americans. (Richard Starnes, “”Spooks’ Make Life Miserable for Ambassador Lode,” Washington Daily News, 10/2/63,  p. 3)

The handlers of the Oswald Project only thought they had to fool the Soviets, and any Soviet spies in the U.S. who might start sniffing around “Oswald’s” biographical data once the false defection started in 1959.  They had no idea this project would eventually become entangled in the Kennedy Assassination in 1963.  That’s when all of this stuff was suddenly placed under a microscope.  Who could have expected such scrutiny earlier?