A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Sandy Larsen]

Even Greg Parker, in his book, says the Skagit set sail on Sept. 14. So does Bugliosi in his book.

Where did the idea come from that the ship didn't leave till two days later? (If the HSCA, why did they change the date?)

I'd trust the unit diary over the HSCA any day.

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Even Greg Parker, in his book, says the Skagit set sail on Sept. 14. So does Bugliosi in his book.

Where did the idea come from that the ship didn't leave till two days later? (If the HSCA, why did they change the date?)

I'd trust the unit diary over the HSCA any day.

 

Parker answers here and also refutes some other things:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1399-the-skagit-according-to-a-former-crew-member

[Jim Hargrove]

As usual, Parnell points to Greg Parker’s private website pretending an answer is there.  Parnell is too ashamed to put arguments  into his own words because he knows how feeble they are.  This is exactly the way he handled the simultaneous attendance of Oswald at PS 44 in New York City and Beauregard JHS in New Orleans.  He has no answers, and so he pretends Greg Parker does.

Use your own words, Tracy.  Stop hiding behind Greg Parker!  Speak up!

[Sandy Larsen]

On 4/4/2017 at 5:59 PM, W. Tracy Parnell said:

On 4/4/2017 at 4:33 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Even Greg Parker, in his book, says the Skagit set sail on Sept. 14. So does Bugliosi in his book.

Where did the idea come from that the ship didn't leave till two days later? (If the HSCA, why did they change the date?)

I'd trust the unit diary over the HSCA any day.

 

Parker answers here and also refutes some other things:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1399-the-skagit-according-to-a-former-crew-member

From a USS Skagit Timeline on this webpage:

"Departed Sept.14 and ran into Typhoon Helen, very rough seas, and giant waves. Arrived Kaoshung, Formosa on Sept,19 unloaded matting continuously for 48 hours."

Greg says that the ship was delayed by two days because of Typhoon Helen. He pointed out that the Skagit crewman who wrote the above must have used the same source (the ship logs) for the date of departure as he did for his book, but that the logs are wrong.

I still don't know what the source is for the later departure date. The typhoon did hit its peak wind speed of 175 mph on the 14th. But at that time it hadn't hit Japan yet. I don't have any idea if they would have delayed the departure date of the ship. Either way the ship would have gone right through the path of the typhoon. (Source)

 

Edited April 8, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Michael Clark]

2 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

From a USS Skagit Timeline on this webpage:

"Departed Sept.14 and ran into Typhoon Helen, very rough seas, and giant waves. Arrived Kaoshung, Formosa on Sept,19 unloaded matting continuously for 48 hours."

Greg says that the ship was delayed by two days because of Typhoon Helen. He pointed out that the Skagit crewman who wrote the above must have used the same source (the ship logs) for the date of departure as he did for his book, but that the logs are wrong.

I still don't know what the source is for the later departure date. The typhoon did hit its peak wind speed of 117 mph on the 14th. But at that time it hadn't hit Japan yet. I don't have any idea if they would have delayed the departure date of the ship. Either way the ship would have gone right through the path of the typhoon. (Source)

 

Sandy, I saw you working on this and I was looking for what are called TROMs, or Tabular Record Of Movements for a given ship. I am familiar with that term from researching WW2 Imperal Japanese Navy ships. I have not fond an equivalent archive for USN ships but I am sure it must exist.

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

5 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Parker points out that if the Skagit left on the 16th (there was a typhoon in the area) LHO was treated at Atsugi on that day and on the Skagit thereafter until returning to Atsugi about October 6.

Tracy,

Let me get this straight...

Oswald's unit is scheduled to leave Japan on Sept. 14. But due to a typhoon, he doesn't leave till the 16th.

On the 16th, before the ship departs, Oswald visits Dr. Kuehn at the Atsugi Hospital. Dr. Kuehn doesn't do smear tests, so he writes a prescription and has Oswald report to the Mainside lab for the smear test. He gives Oswald a prescription for an antibiotic and instructs him return Monday morning for a repeat smear. (This is all on the medical record.)

Oswald then boards the ship and it departs.

On the 23rd, Oswald again visits Dr. Kuehn... oh wait! Kuehn works at the hospital, not on the ship!

Okay, let's start over...

On Tuesday Sept. 16th, before the ship departs, Oswald visits Dr. Kuehn at sick bay on the ship. Dr. Kuehn doesn't do smear tests, so he writes a prescription and has Oswald report to the Mainside lab for the smear test. He gives an antibiotic to Oswald and instructs him return Monday morning for a repeat smear.

The ship departs.

On Monday Sept. 22nd, Oswald again visits Dr. Kuehn. Dr. Kuehn does the smear test, as well as the culture and sensitivity test.

Hey, wait a minute! Dr. Kuehn doesn't do smear tests! Remember? The last time he saw Oswald, he sent him to the Mainside lab for the smear test. Why would he do that if he were perfectly capable of doing the test onboard the ship? And not only the smear test, but the culture & sensitivity test as well!

The reason this doesn't make any sense is because Oswald wasn't really being treated onboard the ship, as Parker and Parnell would have us believe. He was being treating at the Atsugi Hospital. The medical record makes sense once that fact is accepted.

 

 

Earlier, Greg suggested that Oswald's September 16 visit was at Atsugi Naval Air Base, and his visits after that were on the ship. He did that to explain how it could be that the first smear test was performed at the base, and the latter ones at sea

In response (above) I pointed out that the medical records couldn't be made to make sense if that were the case.

Greg's reply is that there are a number of different handwritings on the records. That may be the case, but I can't see how that makes any difference. It could be that Greg thinks I'm only assuming that Oswald saw the same doctor while docked on the 16th as he did after that, while at sea. But no, that is not the case. Dr. Kuehn signed the document both times, and they are both clearly the same signature.

I still say that the "to mainside for smear" notation (along with the two Dr. Kuehn signatures) prove that the medical treatments were all done at the base.

 

[Michael Walton]

Hey, wait a minute! Dr. Kuehn doesn't do smear tests! Remember? The last time he saw Oswald, he sent him to the Mainside lab for the smear test. Why would he do that if he were perfectly capable of doing the test onboard the ship? And not only the smear test, but the culture & sensitivity test as well!

Have you  ever been to a doctor before  where one looks you  over, leaves, another one comes in, and so on?

I mean come on Sandy you're  reaching here. This is  a  huge problem  with people  on this board. Every  single  god-blessed thing on this board if it sounds maybe just a little  off is suddenly  the Rosetta Stone to solving  the crime.

If you're  going to make that big of a hyperbolic  leap then prove it.

And I'm  still not impressed  with  Hargrove's  excuse  of why the clone  doesn't  have a service  number  like  the  real  Oswald  did. I  think  it's  one  more excuse  to use when less than stellar  records don't  match  up  100%.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

11 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

As usual, Parnell points to Greg Parker’s private website pretending an answer is there.  Parnell is too ashamed to put arguments  into his own words because he knows how feeble they are.  This is exactly the way he handled the simultaneous attendance of Oswald at PS 44 in New York City and Beauregard JHS in New Orleans.  He has no answers, and so he pretends Greg Parker does.

Use your own words, Tracy.  Stop hiding behind Greg Parker!  Speak up!

Np, actually I'm too lazy. And I think he is doing a good job on this issue. There are only so many hours in a day so why reinvent the wheel. 

[Jim Hargrove]

On 4/4/2017 at 9:29 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

From a USS Skagit Timeline on this webpage:

"Departed Sept.14 and ran into Typhoon Helen, very rough seas, and giant waves. Arrived Kaoshung, Formosa on Sept,19 unloaded matting continuously for 48 hours."

Greg says that the ship was delayed by two days because of Typhoon Helen. He pointed out that the Skagit crewman who wrote the above must have used the same source (the ship logs) for the date of departure as he did for his book, but that the logs are wrong.

I still don't know what the source is for the later departure date. The typhoon did hit its peak wind speed of 117 mph on the 14th. But at that time it hadn't hit Japan yet. I don't have any idea if they would have delayed the departure date of the ship. Either way the ship would have gone right through the path of the typhoon. (Source)

 

Great find on the Skagit timeline, Sandy!  The information on the typhoon and rough seas could not have been obtained from the 9/14/58 unit diary and was clearly written with an awareness of both the actual sail date and the weather.

As you probably already know, there is no original source for the alleged delay of the sail date, just government dissembling two decades later.  Parker, of course, is grasping at this straw:

It is the letter and one of the enclosures the HSCA received from the Sec. Def. office after Blakey delicately asked Secretary of Defense Ron Brown to explain the conflicting documents we’re talking about here.  Just so everyone understands this, Greg Parker’s ever-evolving excuses for Oswald’s simultaneous appearances in Japan and Taiwan (and en route)  currently centers on the barely supported claim that the Skagit left Japan not on Sept. 14, 1958, as the USMC Unit Diary and other records clearly indicate, but two days later.  Why? Because of these two sentences supplied by Sec. Def. two decades after the event:

“Oswald did not sale from Yokosuka, Japan on September 16, 1958.  He remained aboard NAS, Atsugi as part of the MAG-II rear echelon.”

Faced with the complete exposure of the Oswald Project, the Office of Secretary of Defense and Blakey’s HSCA had no choice but to fabricate history.  The HSCA report reads as follows (emphasis added by me):

The Department of Defense specifically stated that 'Oswald did not sail from Yokosuka,
Japan on September 16, 1958. He remained aboard NAS Atsugi as part of the MAG-
11 rear echelon.' Accordingly, based upon a direct examination of Oswald's unit diaries,
as well as his own-military records, it does not appear that he had spent any time in
Taiwan. This finding is contrary to that of the Warren Commission that Oswald arrived
with his unit in Taiwan on September 30, 1958, and remained there somewhat less than
a week, but the Commission's analysis apparently was made without access to the unit
diaries of MAG 11.

How can the above paragraph be considered as anything other than a flat-out lie?  The unit diaries prove just the opposite of what the HSCA claimed, namely that one LHO DID sail from Yokosuka, Japan (but on Sept. 14, 1958, not Sept. 16) and DID spent several weeks on Taiwan.  The other LHO remained at the Atsugi base and was treated for VD.  

 

 

Edited April 17, 2017 by Jim Hargrove
Has anyone yet found an explanation for how "LEE HARVEY OSWALD" WAS IN TAIWAN AND ATSUGI, JAPAN AT THE SAME TIME?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

And I'm  still not impressed  with  Hargrove's  excuse  of why the clone  doesn't  have a service  number  like  the  real  Oswald  did. I  think  it's  one  more excuse  to use when less than stellar  records don't  match  up  100%.

You are correct on this point. They have the two men together at different points in time when they could have been easily noticed. All it would have taken is one person to see something funny was going on and the plot is ruined.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I still don't know what the source is for the later departure date.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=49565&relPageId=94

[W. Tracy Parnell]

22 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The Bolton Ford Incident

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1408-the-bolton-ford-incident

[Michael Walton]

You are correct on this point. They have the two men together at different points in time when they could have been easily noticed. All it would have taken is one person to see something funny was going on and the plot is ruined.

Can you  imagine the thousands  upon thousands of soldiers coming  and  going and not a single one mentioned  or has ever testified  of seeing  a guy looking  exactly  like Oswald? I've  yet to read a one statement  regarding  this.

And yet Hargrove  will come  back and say "Well it was all a ruse. They didn't  really look that much a like. And the Moms didn't  either. Well, they did but...not really."

And then he'll  say but wait look at the records! And then Larsen will say yeah he was given a pap smear but it couldn't  be because  they don't  do that on ships because doctors weren't  on ships. But they were....just not on that ship.

The yarn spinning  just  never  ends.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Michael,

More holes than swiss cheese for sure. But the H&L gang continue on and so do I and you and many others.

[Jim Hargrove]

42 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

You are correct on this point. They have the two men together at different points in time when they could have been easily noticed. All it would have taken is one person to see something funny was going on and the plot is ruined.

Can you  imagine the thousands  upon thousands of soldiers coming  and  going and not a single one mentioned  or has ever testified  of seeing  a guy looking  exactly  like Oswald? I've  yet to read a one statement  regarding  this.

And yet Hargrove  will come  back and say "Well it was all a ruse. They didn't  really look that much a like. And the Moms didn't  either. Well, they did but...not really."

And then he'll  say but wait look at the records! And then Larsen will say yeah he was given a pap smear but it couldn't  be because  they don't  do that on ships because doctors weren't  on ships. But they were....just not on that ship.

The yarn spinning  just  never  ends.

Of course, Walton and Parnell ignore the evidence that Harvey Oswald was isolated from other soldiers at Atsugi because he was being held in the brig.

Walton and Parnell also seem to be under the misconception that there isn’t a great deal of other evidence for Two Oswalds serving simultaneously in the USMC. Because of the careful record-keeping of the Marine Corps, it was impossible to hide all the conflicting records.  For example:
 

LEE OSWALD. In February, 1957 LEE Oswald took leave and resided with his tall, nice-looking mother in her apartment at 3830 W. 6th in Ft. Worth. Mrs. Oswald was working at Clyde Campbell's Men's Store in Ft. Worth. It was during this trip that LEE's brother, Robert Oswald, introduced him to his new wife (Vada) for the first time. Following his leave, LEE Oswald was assigned to the Naval Air Station (Aviation Fundamentals School) in Jacksonville, FL from March 18 through May 2. After graduating LEE Oswald and 5 other marines were ordered to report to Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, MS (radar school). They departed Jacksonville, FL by train on May 2 and arrived in Biloxi, MS on May 4. Marine Corps Unit Diary 105-57 (p 722) confirms that LEE Oswald departed Jacksonville for Biloxi, Mississippi on May 2. Daniel Patrick Powers was in charge of the 6-member group and, reading from his orders, told the Warren Commission that his group reported to the 3383rd student squadron, attended class # 08057 and received instruction in course # AB27037. After graduating on June 17 they were assigned military occupation specialty 6467--early warning system for radar. Curiously, and without explanation, the Course Curriculum, as published by the WC (Folsom Ex 1, p 117), shows that Powers' group received instruction in course # AB27730 and their class convened on April 24, 1957, eleven days before Powers and his group arrived in Biloxi.

HARVEY OSWALD. Allen Felde told the FBI that he and HARVEY Oswald remained in California (San Diego & Camp Pendleton) until May, 1957, and were then transferred to the A&P school in Jacksonville, FL. Marine Corps Unit Diary #104-57 (pp 719, 724) confirms that Felde arrived in Jacksonville, FL on May 2, 1957. These Marine Corps records show that Felde, and possibly HARVEY Oswald, arrived in Jacksonville, FL the same day that Powers, LEE Oswald, and their group departed Jacksonville for Keesler AFB in Biloxi, MS. Following the assassination of President Kennedy the Dallas Police found a 7-page handwritten account of Oswald's background. HARVEY wrote that he had served in San Diego, CA from October 1956, to April, 1957 and at Camp Pendleton in April and May, 1957. Felde's statement to the FBI, HARVEY Oswald's handwritten chronology, and the Marine Corps Unit diary confirm that Oswald (HARVEY) and Felde were in California and did not arrive in Jacksonville, FL until May 2, 1957. Their assignments at Camp Pendleton, California through May 2 contradict both Marine Corp records and the WC who said that Oswald was in Jacksonville, FL from March 18 through May 2. In other words, HARVEY Oswald and Felde were in ITR training in California while LEE Oswald, Powers, and members of their group were at Aviation Fundamentals School in Jacksonville, FL.

For those unaware of the sheer volume of evidence for two different Lee Harvey Oswalds serving simultaneously in the USMC,  see the massive amount of documentation presented in Harvey and Lee.