A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

A month later First Lieutenant William K.

Trail, assigned to the First Marine Air Wing, MAG II, MACS 1 in Atsugi, recalled that

when his group was preparing to depart for Taiwan Oswald and another Marine were

being held prisoners

The key word there is recalled. No report, no documentation, just his recollection, no doubt honestly given, but wrong.

[Michael Walton]

He sounds 100% American to me, and like he's lived in different parts of the country that have very different regional dialects.

I think visually, it's like he's putting on an act. Both the film interview and the neck scratching footage looks like he's just doing the "look at me the mad Commie" act.

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

He sounds 100% American to me, and like he's lived in different parts of the country that have very different regional dialects.

I think visually, it's like he's putting on an act. Both the film interview and the neck scratching footage looks like he's just doing the "look at me the mad Commie" act.

Michael,

I didn't watch that video, but you're probably right.

I just listened to the tape recording of his radio debate with Carlos Bringuier and Ed Butler.

--  Tommy

Edited April 6, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Jim Hargrove]

 

Harvey Oswald’s command of the Russian language was too good for his Official Biography.

 

From Harvey and Lee:

 

On Christmas Day, Mr. and Mrs. John (Elena) Hall visited the Oswalds at their

apartment on Elsbeth Street.¹⁶⁶ Three days later, on Friday, December 28, Mrs. Declan

(Katya) Ford held a post-Christmas party gathering at her house in Dallas. At the request

of Jeanne DeMohrenschildt. who Mrs. Ford had known for 14 years. she invited the

Oswalds to her party.¹⁶⁷ This was the third and last time Katya Ford would see either

of the Oswald's.

 

[….]

 

Party attendees notice Oswald's ability to speak Russian

 

Natalie Ray, one of the party attendees, said, "Oswald was very proud of the fact

that he spoke Russian so well." As a native of Russia Natalie said that she was amazed

that he had such a good command of the language.¹⁶⁹ Other attendees of the party were

equally amazed at his proficiency in the Russian language and discussed their thoughts

with the Warren Commission:

•

Natalie Ray was asked by Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler, "Did he

(Oswald) speak to you in Russian?" Mrs. Ray replied, "Yes; just perfect; re­ally

surprised me .... .it's just too good speaking Russian for be such a short time,

you know .... .l said, 'How come you speak so good Russian? I been here so long

and still don't speak very well English."'

•

George Bouhe was asked by Liebeler, "Did Oswald's command of the Rus­-

sian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been

in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?" Bouhe replied,

"I would say very good."¹⁷⁰

•

Mrs. Teofil (Anna) Meller was asked by Liebeler, "Do you think that his com­-

mand of the Russian language was better than you would expect for the pe­-

riod of time that he had spent in Russia?" Mrs. Meller replied, "Yes; absolutely

better than I would expect."

•

Elena Hall was asked by Liebeler, "In your opinion, Lee did have a good

command of the Russian language?" Mrs. Hall replied, "Very good ..... "

•

Mrs. Dymitruk was asked by Commission attorney Albert Jenner, "He did

speak Russian?" Mrs. Dymitruk replied, "Yes; and I was really surprised--in

short time, he spoke nicely."

•

George DeMohrenschildt told Jenner, "He loved to speak Russian ..... he spoke

fluent Russian ..... he had a remarkable fluency in Russian ..... he preferred to

speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English

to Russian."

•

Peter Gregory told Warren Commission Representative Gerald Ford, "I

thought that Lee Oswald spoke (Russian) with a Polish accent, that is why I

asked him if he was of Polish decent."

 

--From Harvey and Lee, pp. 425-426, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

[...]

 

"Dear James"

You don't seem to realize that we're not arguing about Oswald's proficiency with Russian (or perhaps you do, and you're just trying to change the subject), we're arguing as to whether or not he spoke and wrote American English well enough (if you discount his horrendous spelling, and occasional punctuation mistakes) as to suggest that he must have learned American English from such an early age as to preclude the possibility he was born in Hungary, learned that (easy to learn for a baby) non-Indo-European language from his parents, then somehow mastered the difficult-to-learn (Indo-European) Slavic language, Russian, in a few years' time, and then and only then started to learn difficult-to-learn (Indo-European) American English, somehow ending up able to speak it as well as he did (better than most Americans, imho) in his radio debate with Carlos Bringuier and Ed Butler, for example.  And to be able write is as well as he did in those two letters of his I posted (as just two examples, one of which you had actually posted because you thought it "proved" he couldn't possibly have been a native English speaker!) and analyzed earlier on this thread, btw.

I say "yes", and you and your (evidently) Russian-born "Ivory Tower Professor" say "no".

Fine.

Intelligent, discerning, critical-minded members can make up their own minds, and will hopefully do so after they've read, on this thread, what I've written about the issue.

--  Tommy

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Jim Hargrove]

On 3/27/2017 at 3:28 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Well, boys and girls, I'm sure you're all way smarter than the head of the Slavic Language Department of Yale University about these linguistic considerations, but here's what he said....

In January 1962, Harvey Oswald mailed a handwritten letter to United States Sena­tor John Tower, requesting re-entry into the U.S.  The letter was published soon after the assassination. In December 1963 Vladimir Petrov, head of the Slavic Language Department at Yale Universithy, read a copy of Oswald's letter and then wrote to Senator Tower. Petrov said, "I am satisfied that letter was not written by him [Harvey Oswald]. It was written by a Russian with an imperfect knowledge of English." 

 

I'll be away from my computer for several hours, so I'm sure you can declare victory several hundred times over the Harvey and Lee Menace while I'm gone.

Just asking, Tommy.

Will you EVER respond to this?

[Thomas Graves]

36 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Just asking, Tommy.

Will you EVER respond to this?

"Dear James"

I already have.

Perhaps you missed it?

Regardless, let me expound a bit, if I may.

Your Precious Professor Petrov (R.I.P.) was born in Russia, and lived there until he was 32 years of age, at which time he moved to the U.S.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Nikolayevich_Petrov

Although he was undoubtedly an expert on Slavic languages (like Russian, Czech, Polish, etc), I would bet you $1,000 that I, not knowing in advance who he was, could tell you he was from a Slavic country if I could hear him speak.

I would quickly intuit that he was from a Slavic country not only by his probably very-strong dialect or "accent", but also because of his difficulty in using correctly 100% of the time, some basic English grammar which is so ingrained in us that we never make mistakes on -- the proper use of the indefinite and definite "articles" a, an, and the, which Russian and other Slavic languages simply do not have.

The problem obviously becomes "How could a Russian man like Petrov, genius though he may be, possibly be able to analyze American English syntax, grammar, and vocabulary so well as to be able to make pronouncements on Oswald's linguistic background when he can't speak it all that well, himself?"

Huh?

--  Tommy

Edited April 6, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Jim Hargrove]

Tommy,

I accept your evidence that you have some linguistic chops, but....

Why do you assume that you know more about American English vs. a Slavic language [Russian]  in 1963 than the head of the Slavic languages department at Yale University  in 1964? Frankly, that just doesn't make much sense to me.

--Jim 

[Thomas Graves]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Tommy,

I accept your evidence that you have some linguistic chops, but....

Why do you assume that you know more about American English vs. a Slavic language [Russian]  in 1963 than the head of the Slavic languages department at Yale University  in 1964? Frankly, that just doesn't make much sense to me.

--Jim 

 

We've been over this about three times now, Jim.

I'm not trying to impress anyone with my intellectual "chops".

I'm trying to show you how a Russian-born (and 32-year-resident of Russia!), rootin'-tootin' "Ivy Tower" instructor of Slavic languages could be relatively weak at speaking and writing proper English, himself, and how that would explain his obvious-to-me incorrect analysis of Lee Harvey Oswald's letters, which mistaken impression led the Ivy Tower Instructor to conclude, erroneously, that Oswald must have been a Russian-language-speaking person who had "an imperfect understanding of English".

LOL

--  Tommy

Just out of curiosity:  Did you learn any foreign languages in high school or college, Jim?

If so, what?

Have you ever lived in a foreign country, without having any native English speaking friends to hang out with?

 If so, which country, Jim?

Edited April 6, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

17 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

On 4/4/2017 at 8:29 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

I still don't know what the source is for the later departure date.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=49565&relPageId=94

Tracy,

Jim has already shown that the information contained in this document is full of demonstrable lies.

 

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

We've been over this about three times now, Jim.

I'm not trying to impress anyone with my intellectual "chops".

I'm trying to show you how a Russian-born (and 32-year-resident of Russia!), your rootin'-tootin' "Ivy Tower" instructor of Slavic languages, could be relatively weak at speaking and writing proper English, himself, and how that would explain his obvious-to-me incorrect analysis of Lee Harvey Oswald's letters, which faulty analysis led your Ivy Tower Instructor to conclude, erroneously, that Oswald must have been a Russian-language-speaking person who had "an imperfect understanding of English".

LOL

--  Tommy

Just out of curiosity:  Did you learn any foreign languages in high school or college, Jim?

If so, what?

Have you ever lived in a foreign country, without having any native English speaking friends to hang out with?

 If so, which country, Jim?

bumped for James Hargrove

Edited April 6, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Michael Walton]

Jim I know this is going to sound sarcastic but it's  really not. But just tell me....

The guy we see handing out leaflets in NO - the guy talking in a TV interview  in NO - the guy in custody and the one who says "I'm  here because  I  lived in Russia...I'm  a  patsy" - the guy at the midnight press  conference  - the guy in NO ranting on film filmed by a young kid (the so-called neck scratching film)...

I'm  assuming you  think these are all one  and  the  same  person....

Is that person as described in all films above  the Harvey one or the Lee one?

PS please don't  post a long saga as a reply with highlighted documents  and  so forth.

Just answer...

Is it Harvey or Lee?

Thank you.

[Jim Hargrove]

I don't know what the "so-called neck scratching film" is, but the other situations you describe all involve Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald.  Considering how often you give your opinion about Harvey and Lee, I'm amazed that you don't even know the basics about it.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Tracy,

Jim has already shown that the information contained in this document is full of demonstrable lies.

 

What was the purpose of these "lies"? Are you saying that the HSCA was lying to protect the "Oswald project"? If so, why did they do the work they did on the 2 Oswald theory?

[Sandy Larsen]

 

1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Tracy,

Jim has already shown that the information contained in this document is full of demonstrable lies.

What was the purpose of these "lies"? Are you saying that the HSCA was lying to protect the "Oswald project"? If so, why did they do the work they did on the 2 Oswald theory?

The purpose of those lies was to fix the problem of Oswald being at Atsugi Naval Base and aboard the USS Skagit and in Taiwan simultaneously.

I don't know if the 16 September date (rather than 14 September) for the ship's departure was a lie, the truth, or a typo. But nobody knows where that date came from. I'm inclined to believe it was a typo.

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Sandy Larsen