Edwin Walker

[Ernie Lazar]

FTR #188 American Gladio?

Posted by FTR ⋅ January 9, 2000

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word to wise...things are not as simple as they seem.

Well, Steven, at least you're on the right track, although facing the wrong way.

In fact, when Edwin Walker testified before the Senate Subcommittee on Military Preparedness in April 1962 (led by Senators John Stennis and Strom Thurmond) he cited SPECIFICALLY that same NSC directive started in 1958 during the Eisenhower Administration as his justification for setting up his Pro-Blue propaganda campaign that used far-right literature to train his 10,000 Troops in Augsburg, Germany, 1960-1961.

Edwin Walker also cited the loss of morale in the Korean War when several American GI's fell for the Communist propaganda and joined the other side. Propaganda, said Walker, was the "fourth dimension" of war, beyond land, sea and air.

Edwin Walker tried to win public sympathy, claiming that JFK had fired him from his job because of his John Birch Society loyalties. It was a lie. First, Walker wasn't dismissed from his command because of John Birch Society materials, nor was he dismissed by JFK.

The truth is that the Joint Chiefs of Staff dismissed Edwin Walker from his command in Augsburg because of a speech given to his Troops which was "unbecoming an officer." In that speech Walker called President Harry Truman, "definitely pink", and was even more insulting to former First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt.

After a very long legal investigation, resulting in hundreds of pages of testimony and interviews, Walker was told that his main flaw was that he tried to influence the votes of his troops in 1960, by using Kent and Phoebe Courtney's "Conservative Voting Index," complete with a telephone hot-line. This was a violation of the Hatch Act in the Army.

JFK, for his part, didn't want the scandal of a US General resigning from the Army, so JFK offered General Walker a post -- even a new TRAINING post -- in Hawaii. Edwin Walker turned him down flat. This would be the SECOND time that Edwin Walker would resign from the Army, and he wasn't going to weaken this time.

Now -- there was certainly a Communist paranoia that gripped the USA in 1960-1963, and Fidel Castro was at the center of that nightmare for millions of Americans. (For others, thanks to Hoover, MLK was their nightmare "Commie" figure).

But for the John Birch Society, and especially for their Minutemen paramilitary contingent, JFK was the BIGGEST COMMUNIST OF THEM ALL.

As for the relationships between Guy Banister, George Lincoln Rockwell, Robert Allen Surrey and Edwin Walker, I repeat -- your source is on the right track. These are my prime suspects in the murder of JFK.

Now, one can make too much of Reinhard Gehlen in all this -- after all, the Nazi Party lost their control over Germany. Nor would the USA wish to revive the Third Reich in Germany or in the USA.

HOWEVER -- insofar as COMMUNISM was now the big Fear in the USA, the exploitation of the caponized, former Nazi spies who knew a lot about COMMUNIST individuals in the West, would be supremely valuable to the US Government.

So -- I won't discount the Gehlen contacts, either. I only want to point out that their wings and claws were surely clipped.

By the way, your source really missed one point -- Edwin Walker's publishing company wasn't the "American Mercury," rather it was the "American Eagle."

As for the Schmidt brothers, I don't think we've heard the last of them. Larrie Schmidt told LIFE magazine that he would gladly shoot George Lincoln Rockwell AND Gus Hall in public in order to show how "middle of the road" he was.

This was a typical John Birch Society thing to say, IMHO. They sought to please, but their fangs still showed through without them noticing.

As for the DNZ allegation that Oswald was also Walker's shooter -- what in the world would the BND (the German FBI) hope to "pressure the CIA" to do in the light of the JFK murder? Your source's insinuation makes no sense.

But at least you're getting WARMER, Steven. Keep trying.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

It was not (as you wrote) "Kent and Phoebe Courtney's Conservative Voting Index".

Instead, it was the Americans For Constitutional Action voting index. The ACA was formed in 1958 to promote conservatism.

As Walker himself told the Subcommittee during his testimony: "The ACA Index has no partisan bias as far as I knew. Even if it has some bias,as most documents do have, the index was factual and educational, as far as I could tell." [Hearings Before Special Preparedness Subcommittee, part 4, page 1419.]

[Paul Trejo]

How did Hasso Thorsten know that Edwin Walker would be at the Captain Shreve Hotel at 7:00 a.m. on the morning of Nov 24th and from whom did Mr. Thorsten get the telephone number of the hotel that Walker was staying in?

++++++++++++++

Surrey monitors Walker then reports to CIA. CIA contact their assets at German newspaper. Walker being played...Walker the Patsy. HE is outside looking in.

But at least you're getting WARMER, Paul Keep trying !!!

Great question about Hasso Thorsten, Steven.

In my honest opinion, Hasso Thorsten (which was a pen name, not an actual name) did not call Edwin Walker, as testified. Instead, Edwin Walker called HIM. Walker was close pals with the editor of the Deutsche Nationalzeitung -- probably since his Augsburg days.

The real name of Hasso Thorsten was "Helmut Muench", a journalist from Munich, Germany. His boss was none other than the nortorious former Nazi editor, Dr. Gerhard Frey of Munich.

(The BND found out early on in their search for Hasso Thorsten. They grilled Helmut Muench under a bright light, and really put the pressure on. They gave their results to the American FBI. We know this because the FBI gave this information to the Warren Commission, and it became part of the questioning that the Warren Commission attorneys placed before Ex-General Edwin Walker in July of 1964.)

The entire "interview" that morning appears to be carefully scripted. Most likely Walker scripted it. In any case, it was edited and re-edited.

WALKER WANTED THE WHOLE WORLD TO KNOW THAT HE KILLED JFK. THIS WAS HIS FIRST "CONFESSION".

Walker hoped the world would put 2 and 2 together, and realize the truth: Lee Harvey Oswald really did try to kill Edwin Walker on 10 April 1963 (at the urging of George De Mohrenschildt, Volkmar Schmidt, Michael Paine and other young, upwardly mobile engineers in Dallas -- starting February 1963 -- just weeks after Edwin Walker was acquitted by a Grand Jury for his role in the deadly riots of Ole Miss).

Then, the world would realize why Edwin Walker had to manipulate Lee Harvey Oswald for the rest of 1963 to take the blame for killing JFK. This was his hope. The clue was this: Lee Oswald was Walker's Shooter! See? See?

Walker told this to the DNZ at 5AM the morning after JFK was dead. Walker told "Thorsten" the phone number to call at 7AM.

Walker told this same story to the National Enquirer just before his July 1964 testimony to the Warren Commission. But he denied it to the Warren Commission.

Walker told this same story in article after article for the rest of his life. His very last article of his life said the same thing. Here it is:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19920119_EAW_Oswald_arrested.pdf

The personal papers of Edwin Walker show this life-long obsession with Lee Harvey Oswald. The CIA had very little to do with it, Steven. Robert Allen Surrey practically lived with Edwin Walker -- and Surrey encouraged Walker to make trouble at Ole Miss, and traveled there to watch it. Surrey had his own agenda along with George Lincoln Rockwell -- not the CIA.

Only those who are utterly biased against the CIA will try to link the CIA with the Nazi Party. It's sad because it lets the real criminals off the hook.

You're still facing the wrong way, Steven. Keep trying.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited November 5, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

Are you linking Walker with the Nazi party?

[Paul Trejo]

Are you linking Walker with the Nazi party?

If you're asking me, Paul B., then my answer is -- I hope not.

That is, I will resist making that link as far as I possibly can -- I will firmly argue "NO" as long as rationally possible.

I realize that there are many strikes against Edwin Walker -- for example, his friendly relationship with former Nazi leader Dr. Gerhard Frey is not looking good for Edwin Walker.

Also, look at Robert Allen Surrey, who kept his business office inside the very home of Edwin Walker at 4011 Turtle Creek Drive in Dallas. Robert Surrey was a card-carrying member of the ANP (American Nazi Party), with a close personal relationship with George Lincoln Rockwell. That also looks bad for Walker.

Add to this the fact that many white racist organizations liked Edwin Walker, including the KKK, which offered him a title as Grand Dragon. Looks pretty bad.

HOWEVER -- Edwin Walker turned down the KKK. Edwin Walker never joined the ANP. Edwin Walker wanted to run for US President, originally -- and he was astute enough to recognize how terrible it would look to Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public if he had sullied his name with membership in the Nazi Party or the KKK.

ALSO -- Larrie Schmidt swore to me personally that although he was a close, personal friend of Robert Allen Surrey in Dallas in 1963, that he never had a CLUE that Surrey was a Nazi. Larrie claims that Surrey stayed 100% in the closet in Dallas, because even the most right-wing JBS member in Dallas would have been horrified to learn about a card-carrying Nazi in their midst.

(Larrie was so close to Robert Allen Surrey that when Willie McDuff left 4011 Turtle Creek, and Edwin Walker needed a chauffuer right away, Surrey asked Larrie if he knew anybody he could trust, and Larrie recommended his brother, Robbie Schmidt. Robbie Schmidt got the job right away. Yet, according to Bernard Weissman, Robbie Schmidt didn't have a political bone in his body -- far preferring his free room and board and his evenings and weekends at the local bar to any intellectual conversation.)

NEVERTHELESS, Edwin Walker, like Guy Banister, continued to pander to the ultra-right wing in the South to obtain votes and hopefully to obtain political positions in the South. It was still plausible -- George Wallace was the proof.

The real question was whether the South had the clout, the power, to make its wishes known, to SMASH the Civil Rights movement using its own hand-picked politicians -- to bring back the USA lifestyle that President Woodrow Wilson would have been proud to uphold -- with KKK throngs in white sheets marching through the streets of Washington DC.

It sounds odd to us today, but 100 years ago it was business as usual in the USA. All the ultra-right-wing in the South really wanted to do was to turn back the hands of time. All they really wanted to do was to get back to Dixie.

They looked to people like Guy Banister and Edwin Walker to get them there in 1961-1963.

As I keep trying to tell Steven Gaal -- the Nazi Party was defunct -- powerless -- broken -- clipped -- caponized. They were of use to secret agencies of the US Government only as an underground means to spy on COMMUNISTS.

I agree with Steven Gaal that far. It's admitted that the US Government used FORMER Nazi staffers to spy on the COMMUNISTS. But I think Steven (and his kind) interpret incorrectly when they presume that the US Government was therefore trying to revive the Nazi Party. Nothing of the kind.

Nor did Edwin Walker ever suggest anything like that - ever. When Edwin Walker was testifying at the Senate Subcommittee on Military Preparedness in April 1962, and making a damn fool of himself, it only made matters worse that George Lincoln Rockwell burst into the Senate chambers completely decked out in his Nazi uniform, goose-stepping and Nazi saluting -- and screaming out that General Edwin Walker was being persecuted!

That really happened.

When a newspaper reporter in the hall confronted Edwin Walker with that ludicrous behavior after the session, Edwin Walker punched that reporter in the eye. It was about that time that Edwin Walker's poll numbers for the Texas Governor campaign made a nose-dive down to last place, never to recover.

I repeat -- to understand American politics in 1963, one must distinguish nuances and carefully separate the JBS from the KKK, and the KKK from the Nazi Party. This is vitally important.

Edwin Walker was infected by the JBS. That is all that was necessary to murder JFK. I'll use Occam's Razor and stick with this scenario -- where we have hard evidence.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited November 5, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

Come on - Surrey is hard enough evidence.

[Paul Trejo]

Well, again, Paul B., I must insist on the nuance -- a strident racist in the American South is still not the same as a Hitler-following, Third Reich-loving, card-carrying member of the Nazi Party.

It's Hollywood hype to believe that during World War Two, that Black GI's fought side by side with White GI's in Europe. They didn't. The US Army was still racially segregated from 1900-1945.

That means that the American military men who defeated Adolf Hitler in 1942-1945 were typically white Southerners, racially segregated, and loving Dixie and their American way of life, while hating Nazi Germany and the Third Reich.

Although white racism was a common element between Dixie and the Third Reich, still, Dixie kicked the butt of the Third Reich in the 1940's. Even in those many towns in the Deep South and Midwest where Germans congregated -- those German Americans were afraid to speak German -- they forced themselves to speak English, often for the first time.

Americans hated Nazis -- even Americans from the Deep South hated those damned Nazis.

This is a nuance that is important to grasp when we try to solve the JFK murder. It wasn't the Nazi Party -- they were defunct, caponized, defeated. It was the American South -- Dixie -- that ultimately killed JFK.

More specifically, it was the John Birch Society ideology that sitting US Presidents were COMMUNISTS -- this is the ideology that motivated Southerners in a plot to assassinate President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Even if Edwin Walker was a "secret" Nazi (which cannot be proved by using his personal papers) he never came out with it in public at any time in his life.

On the contrary -- Edwin Walker, like all JBS members, pretended to be the most patriotic American of all time -- when actually he was plotting TREASON. Yet he justified it because it was Treason to support Dixie.

Also, in the personal papers of Edwin Walker, we can see quite clearly that he loved his mother very much, and she wrote to him continually, and he wrote to her. She was a Southern Lady. She would have died of shame if she ever heard a hint that her beloved Edwin was involved with those nasty Nazis.

Edwin Walker would never risk that. Also, Edwin Walker continually wrote to his brother, Frank, and kept him apprised of all the news he couldn't tell his mother -- mainly about sex scandals and personal matters -- and Frank was another dedicated Southern gentleman who hated Nazis.

The material evidence tells us that Edwin Walker hated Nazis. The verbal evidence I have tells me that Robert Allen Surrey never told Edwin Walker his true political colors.

So, for the time being, Paul B., I'm going to stick with this story -- General Walker wasn't a Nazi.

I realize that I might be mistaken -- but I need solid evidence, not mere suspicion, to change my position.

Although Walker wasn't a Nazi, he was still obsessed with Southern politics and the Civil Rights issue, and with the increasing news of racial violence in the USA in those days. He reportedly told a young political candidate in 1963 that a race war was coming to the USA, and it would get so bad that the American People would beg the Pentagon to take over the US Government -- and after that point, civilians would never again control the US Government.

One can argue that this is very close to the ideology of the Nazi Party -- so I can't 100% dismiss the possibility that Edwin Walker was a "secret" Nazi. Yet I repeat -- without solid evidence, I am content to put the spotlight, not on the Nazis, but on the JFK-hating, murder-plotting ideology of the John Birch Society -- for whom killing a Communist President was the height of political duty.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo
<edit typos>

Edited November 7, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Steven Gaal]

Steven Gaal, on 04 Nov 2014 - 7:02 PM, said:

How did Hasso Thorsten know that Edwin Walker would be at the Captain Shreve Hotel at 7:00 a.m. on the morning of Nov 24th and from whom did Mr. Thorsten get the telephone number of the hotel that Walker was staying in?
++++++++++++++
Surrey monitors Walker then reports to CIA. CIA contact their assets at German newspaper. Walker being played...Walker the Patsy. HE is outside looking in.
But at least you're getting WARMER, Paul Keep trying !!!

Great question about Hasso Thorsten, Steven.

In my honest opinion, Hasso Thorsten (which was a pen name, not an actual name) did not call Edwin Walker, as testified. Instead, Edwin Walker called HIM. Walker was close pals with the editor of the Deutsche Nationalzeitung -- probably since his Augsburg days. // Trejo

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

poster

tomnin

Other recipients:

Somebody explain to Wally World what these words mean>>> "this is Hasso Thorsten of the Deutsche National Zeitung, I AM CALLING FROM GERMANY".

Somebody explain to Wally World what these words mean>>>

"this is Hasso Thorsten of the Deutsche National Zeitung, I AM CALLING FROM
GERMANY".

Contrary to Walt's claim that Walker made the phone call TO Germany.

See 12 pages in item #2.

http://whokilledjfk.net/catch_of_the_day.htm

++++++++++++++++
SURREY penetration agent of CIA into ANP. (BTW this was ANP-Surrey interaction seems all post Dallas)

[Ernie Lazar]

Come on - Surrey is hard enough evidence.

Well, again, Paul B., I must insist on the nuance -- a strident racist in the American South is still not the same as a Hitler-following, Third Reich-loving, card-carrying member of the Nazi Party.

It's Hollywood hype to believe that during World War Two, that Black GI's fought side by side with White GI's in Europe. They didn't. The US Army was still racially segregated from 1900-1945.

That means that the American military who defeated Adolf Hitler in 1942-1945 were typically white Southerners, racially segregated, and loving Dixie and their American way of life, while hating Nazi Germany and the Third Reich.

Although white racism was a common element between Dixie and the Third Reich, still, Dixie kicked the butt of the Third Reich in the 1940's. Even in those many towns in the Deep South and Midwest where Germans congregated -- those German Americans were afraid to speak German -- they forced themselves to speak English, often for the first time.

Americans hated Nazis -- even Americans from the Deep South.

This is a nuance that is important to grasp when we try to solve the JFK murder. It wasn't the Nazi Party -- they were defunct, caponized, defeated. It was the American South -- Dixie -- that ultimately killed JFK.

More specifically, it was the John Birch Society ideology that sitting US Presidents were COMMUNISTS -- this is the ideology that motivated the plot to assassinate President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Even if Edwin Walker was a "secret" Nazi (which cannot be proved by using his personal papers) he never came out with it in public at any time in his life.

On the contrary -- Edwin Walker, like all JBS members, pretended to be the most patriotic American of all time -- when actually he was plotting TREASON. Yet he justified it because it was Treason to support Dixie.

Also, in the personal papers of Edwin Walker, we can see quite clearly that he loved his mother very much, and she wrote to him continually, and he wrote to her. She was a Southern Lady. She would have died of shame if she ever heard a hint that her beloved Edwin was involved with those nasty Nazis.

Edwin Walker would never risk that. Also, Edwin Walker continually wrote to his brother, Frank, and kept him apprised of all the news he couldn't tell his mother -- mainly about sex scandals and personal matters -- and Frank was another dedicated Southern gentleman who hated Nazis.

The material evidence tells us that Edwin Walker hated Nazis. The verbal evidence I have tells me that Robert Allen Surrey never told Edwin Walker his true political colors.

So, for the time being, Paul B., I'm going to stick with this story -- General Walker wasn't a Nazi.

I realize that I might be mistaken -- but I need solid evidence, not mere suspicion, to change my position.

Although Walker wasn't a Nazi, he was still obsessed with Southern politics and the Civil Rights issue, and with the increasing news of racial violence in the USA in those days. He reportedly told a young political candidate that a race war was coming to the USA, and it would get so bad that the American People would beg the Pentagon to take over the US Government -- and after that point, civilians would never control the US Government again.

One can argue that this is very close to the ideology of the Nazi Party -- so I can't 100% dismiss the possibility that Edwin Walker was a "secret" Nazi. Yet I repeat -- without solid evidence, I am content to point out and underscore the JFK-hating, murder-plotting ideology of the John Birch Society -- for whom killing a Communist President was the height of political duty.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

1. Paul is correct that there are "nuances" which must be understood in order to arrive at a correct understanding but, unfortunately, Paul apparently does not seem familiar with the appropriate nuances. Below, I discuss some of the "nuances" which Paul should consider.

2. A major tenet of JBS ideology was to disparage democracy. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the JBS slogan "This is a republic, not a democracy" and Welch's comment that "democracy is merely a deceptive phrase, a weapon of demagoguery, and a perennial fraud".

What Birchers believed (along with neo-nazis and others who express anti-democratic thought patterns) is the notion that "the masses" (i.e. ordinary people) are not equipped to make the best or the most appropriate public policy decisions and, consequently, only the "best" people should be allowed to rule. This idea is also shared by Communists who believe in what they mis-label as "people's democracies" -- but, nevertheless, they require one-party dictatorships because their focus is not upon the source of their authority to rule but upon the purposes for which political power is exercised.

3. Also see Welch's articles in which he cites the writings of Chicago lawyer Harry F. Atwood. Atwood provided the intellectual justification for opposition to direct primaries, initiatives, referendums, recall elections, etc. He argued for the more cumbersome and slower process of indirect rule through representatives.

4. Another expression of the JBS mentality regarding who should exercise power and what forms of governance are appropriate may be seen in the organizational structure of the JBS. The 1963 report by the California Senate Factfinding Subcommittee on Un-American Activities made the following observation:

"Anyone familiar with the organization and techniques of the Communist Party must immediately note the close similarity between these two implacable enemies. Each has a monolithic structure in which the authority gravitates from the top down through the various echelons to the rank and file membership...The [John Birch] society is completely frank in stating that it has adopted many Communist techniques as its own." and

"Robert Welch is the undisputed authority in this movement and from his decisions there can be no appeal. Operating under him is an executive committee and a national council, but these are purely advisory bodies. If Welch makes a decision and both the executive committee and council unanimously, vehemently, and implacably disagree, there is no question about who will prevail: Welch. Indeed, since he appoints the members of these bodies, he can fire them individually or collectively at will."

This leadership principle mirrors precisely what neo-nazis also believed was the correct organizational hierarchy for society.

5. When George Lincoln Rockwell published his 1961 autobiography, This Time The World, he wrote in his "Acknowledgements" section:

"Acknowledgements: The author gratefully acknowledges the inspiration he received in his political career from three great Americans: Senator Joseph McCarthy, General Charles Lindbergh, General Douglas MacArthur."

Again, music to the ears of Birchers who shared Rockwell's high regard for these personalities---especially McCarthy.

6. In an 1964 interview, Rockwell observed:

“The Birch Society is sort of a kindergarten for the Nazi Party. In the last year we have taken over a majority of Birchers in three cities.”

And in 1966 Rockwell met with a group of Dallas JBS members because he thought the Birch Society (and KKK) represented a fertile recruitment ground.

7. So, in all this evidence (and much more), we see commonalities of perceptions and interests between neo-nazis and Birchers. Nevertheless, it is also true that the official JBS position about nazism was that it was just another form of totalitarian "collectivism" which suppressed individual freedom of thought and behavior.

And this explains why Birchers have proposed that we adopt a new understanding of a political spectrum. Instead of the standard traditional spectrum which shows polar opposites of extreme left (Communists et al) and extreme right (nazis, fascists et al), the JBS proposes a circle which proceeds as follows:

TOP RIGHT SIDE OF CIRCLE = anarchy

MIDDLE RIGHT SIDE OF CIRCLE = libertarianism

CENTER (BOTTOM) OF CIRCLE = genuine conservatism / constitutionalism / individualism

LEFT SIDE OF CIRCLE = liberalism, socialism, fabianism, communism, nazism, fascism

From the JBS perspective, EVERYTHING on the left side of the circle represents the unacceptable horror of varying degrees of "collectivism" AND (more importantly) any degree of collectivism inevitably leads to the next degree, i.e. eventual total loss of freedom is inevitable.

Ultimately, this is why the neo-nazis and Hitler admirers who joined the JBS over the years eventually resigned (or were thrown out) because they came to the realization that the JBS was not hospitable to their ideology.

BUT -- it is also true that major figures within the JBS (such as Edwin Walker) were pre-disposed to accepting portions of neo-nazi ideology -- particularly with respect to race and the JBS/neo-nazi hierarchial interpretation of how society should be organized and who should be entitled to exercise political power.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Ernie Lazar

[Paul Trejo]

Somebody explain to Wally World what these words mean>>> "this is Hasso Thorsten of the Deutsche National Zeitung, I AM CALLING FROM GERMANY".

Contrary to Walt's claim that Walker made the phone call TO Germany.

I guess you weren't paying attention, Steven. I was asked for my opinion, which is that the call from the fictitious Hasso Thorsten (a pen-name for Helmet Muench) was SCRIPTED.

SCRIPTED. Get it? It was political theater.

Who scripted it? I say it was Ex-General Walker himself. He called Helmet Muench about 5pm, I reckon, and gave him the script. Then Muench called at 7AM and read the script that began:

"This is Hasso Thorsten of the Deutsche National Zeitung, I AM CALLING FROM GERMANY".

A SCRIPT, Steven. It was a SCRIPT. Read the whole interview again -- and realize that the whole thing sounds scripted because it WAS scripted.

Walker was confessing to the JFK murder -- actually he was BOASTING about it. He was in his glory moment. He had to tell SOMEBODY. Why not tell the Germans -- because he sure couldn't tell the Americans.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Edited November 5, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Steven Gaal]

Somebody explain to Wally World what these words mean>>> "this is Hasso Thorsten of the Deutsche National Zeitung, I AM CALLING FROM GERMANY".

Contrary to Walt's claim that Walker made the phone call TO Germany.

I guess you weren't paying attention, Steven. I was asked for my opinion, which is that the call from the fictitious Hasso Thorsten (a pen-name for Helmet Muench) was SCRIPTED.

SCRIPTED. Get it? It was political theater.

Who scripted it? I say it was Ex-General Walker himself. He called Helmet Muench about 5pm, I reckon, and gave him the script. Then Muench called at 7AM and read the script that began:

"This is Hasso Thorsten of the Deutsche National Zeitung, I AM CALLING FROM GERMANY".

A SCRIPT, Steven. It was a SCRIPT. Read the whole interview again -- and realize that the whole thing sounds scripted because it WAS scripted.

Walker was confessing to the JFK murder -- actually he was BOASTING about it. He was in his glory moment. He had to tell SOMEBODY. Why not tell the Germans -- because he sure couldn't tell the Americans.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

...Gee he implicated Oswald not himself as a violent person ,its not "connfession" but insinuating mental stability in LHO Sg

[Paul Trejo]

Steven Gaal on 05 Nov 2014 - 4:19 PM, said:

...Gee, he implicated Oswald, not himself as a violent person; it's not a "confession" but insinuating mental stability in LHO

Sg

========================================================================================================

This is the correct objection, Steven, and I want to be sensitive to it as I offer what I believe is a rational explanation.

The whole purpose of the JFK plot -- according to me -- was to attack Communism. In particular, the attack would be focused on Fidel Castro and Communist Cuba.

From April 1963 through September 1963, the JFK murder plot chose to FRAME Lee Harvey Oswald as a COMMUNIST who supported Fidel Castro. Lee Harvey Oswald was never a real Communist, just as his FPCC chapter in New Orleans was a FAKE chapter. Jim Garrison already proved that. I accept that.

Edwin Walker hated Lee Harvey Oswald starting on 14 April 1963, when he learned from a leak in the US Government that Lee Harvey Oswald was known to be his attempted assassin on 10 April 1963. (This was Walker's own belief, as he preached to the world from 1963 until the day he died. I'm not saying that I know Oswald was the shooter -- I'm saying that Walker truly, truly, truly believed it.)

If Walker was paranoid about it, and Oswald really wasn't his shooter, then I wouldn't want to be the one to explain that, because we have LOTS of evidence from MULTIPLE witnesses that Oswald really did try to kill Walker. Not only the Paines, the photographs, Marina's testimony, but also George De Mohrenschildt, his wife, and Volkmar Schmidt -- MULTIPLE witnesses. And if we accept the photographic evidence -- then it's guaranteed.

Yet for my theory I realize I must respond to the very large number of JFK researchers who -- along with Jim Garrison -- came to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was not only FRAMED for the JFK murder (which I agree that he was) but that he was ALSO Framed for the Walker shooting (which I challenge).

The common argument seems to be, that IF Lee Oswald was innocent of shooting at JFK, THEN he must have been innocent of shooting at Walker. This simplistic logic is made simply to reverse the weak Warren Commission suggestion that if Oswald shot at Walker, then Oswald MUST have shot at JFK, because it proves he was a violent person.

So I am arguing against the majority when I say that Oswald shot at Walker, and with the majority when I say that the Warren Commission argument was wrong. So my position is nuanced.

I say that Lee Harvey Oswald is INNOCENT of the actual shooting at JFK. He was FRAMED by many people, including Edwin Walker, so that the American people would believe that the Communists were attacking the USA.

Yet I also say that Oswald is GUILTY of shooting at Edwin Walker back in April 1963 -- along with several "accomplices" including George De Mohrenschildt, Michael Paine, Ruth Paine and Volkmar Schmidt -- and a host of liberal, yuppie engineers in Dallas.

I must insist -- just because Oswald tried to kill Edwin Walker CANNOT BE USED AS PROOF that Oswald tried to kill JFK.

In fact, the very reason that Lee Harvey Oswald was specifically selected to be FRAMED for the JFK murder, is precisely because he tried to kill Edwin Walker!!

It was Edwin Walker himself who selected Lee Harvey Oswald to be the patsy. People around here will not let me cite Harry Dean in this regard, but I can cite lots of other evidence that has arisen in the past year or so.

So -- Edwin Walker hated Lee Harvey Oswald. If Walker had failed to FRAME Oswald as the patsy for the JFK murder, I'm convinced that Edwin Walker would have found some other way to kill Lee Harvey Oswald. In the imagination of Edwin Walker (as proved by his personal papers) Lee Oswald was an employee of JFK and RFK.

So, it was poetic justice on the part of Edwin Walker to use the employee of JFK and RFK as a tool to kill JFK. That was his motivation. That is amply shown by Walker's personal papers.

It is also shown by this CONFESSION that Edwin Walker is trying to make to the DNZ newspaper, and later to the National Enquirer. and later to the Friends of Walker, and later to Senator Frank Church, and later to others.

Edwin Walker used Lee Harvey Oswald to kill JFK because he truly believed that JFK tried to use Lee Harvey Oswald to kill Edwin Walker.

This is the CONFESSION of Edwin Walker as found encoded in his personal papers. It provides the full solution to the JFK murder, and it was not guessed by Mark Lane, Jim Garrison, Harold Weisberg, Jim Marrs, Sylvia Meagher, Joan Mellen, Gaeton Fonzi, Lamar Waldron, Larry Hancock, Bill Simpich or any other researcher in the past fifty years.

This is NEW evidence, I say, and it will soon crack the JFK murder case at long last.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited November 8, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Ernie Lazar]

Steven Gaal on 05 Nov 2014 - 4:19 PM, said:

...Gee, he implicated Oswald, not himself as a violent person; it's not a "confession" but insinuating mental stability in LHO

Sg

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This is the correct objection, Steven, and I want to be sensitive to it as I offer what I believe is a rational explanation.

The whole purpose of the JFK plot -- according to me -- was to attack Communism. In particular, the attack would be focused on Fidel Castro and Communist Cuba.

From April 1963 through September 1963, the JFK murder plot chose to FRAME Lee Harvey Oswald as a COMMUNIST who supported Fidel Castro. Lee Harvey Oswald was never a real Communist, just as his FPCC chapter in New Orleans was a FAKE chapter. Jim Garrison already proved that. I accept that.

Edwin Walker hated Lee Harvey Oswald starting on 14 April 1963, when he learned from a leak in the US Government that Lee Harvey Oswald was known to be his attempted assassin on 10 April 1963. (This was Walker's own belief, as he preached to the world from 1963 until the day he died. I'm not saying that I know Oswald was the shooter -- I'm saying that Walker truly, truly, truly believed it.)

If Walker was paranoid about it, and Oswald really wasn't his shooter, then I wouldn't want to be the one to explain that, because we have LOTS of evidence from MULTIPLE witnesses that Oswald really did try to kill Walker. Not only the Paines, the photographs, Marina's testimony, but also George De Mohrenschildt, his wife, and Volkmar Schmidt -- MULTIPLE witnesses. And if we accept the photographic evidence -- then it's guaranteed.

Yet for my theory I realize I must respond to the very large number of JFK researchers who -- along with Jim Garrison -- came to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was not only FRAMED for the JFK murder (which I agree that he was) but that he was ALSO Framed for the Walker shooting (which I challenge).

The common argument seems to be, that IF Lee Oswald was innocent of shooting at JFK, THEN he must have been innocent of shooting at Walker. This simplistic logic is made simply to reverse the weak Warren Commission suggestion that if Oswald shot at Walker, then Oswald MUST have shot at JFK, because it proves he was a violent person.

So I am arguing against the majority when I say that Oswald shot at Walker, and with the majority when I say that the Warren Commission argument was wrong. So my position is nuanced.

I say that Lee Harvey Oswald is INNOCENT of the actual shooting at JFK. He was FRAMED by many people, including Edwin Walker, so that the American people would believe that the Communists were attacking the USA.

Yet I also say that Oswald is GUILTY of shooting at Edwin Walker back in April 1963 -- along with several "accomplices" including George De Mohrenschildt, Michael Paine, Ruth Paine and Volkmar Schmidt -- and a host of liberal, yuppie engineers in Dallas.

I must insist -- just because Oswald tried to kill Edwin Walker CANNOT BE USED AS PROOF that Oswald tried to kill JFK.

In fact, the very reason that Lee Harvey Oswald was specifically selected to be FRAMED for the JFK murder, is precisely because he tried to kill Edwin Walker!!

It was Edwin Walker himself who selected Lee Harvey Oswald to be the patsy. People around here will not let me cite Harry Dean in this regard, but I can cite lots of other evidence that has arisen in the past year or so.

So -- Edwin Walker hated Lee Harvey Oswald. If Walker had failed to FRAME Oswald as the patsy for the JFK murder, I'm convinced that Edwin Walker would have found some other way to kill Lee Harvey Oswald. In the imagination of Edwin Walker (as proved by his personal papers) Lee Oswald was an employee of JFK and RFK.

So, it was poetic justice on the part of Edwin Walker to use the employee of JFK and RFK as a tool to kill JFK. That was his motivation. That is amply shown by Walker's personal papers.

It is also shown by this CONFESSION that Edwin Walker is trying to make to the DNZ newspaper, and later to the National Enquirer. and later to the Friends of Walker, and later to Senator Frank Church, and later to others.

Edwin Walker used Lee Harvey Oswald to kill JFK because he truly believed that JFK tried to use Lee Harvey Oswald to kill Edwin Walker.

This is the CONFESSION of Edwin Walker as found encoded in his personal papers. It provides the full solution to the JFK murder, and it was not guessed by Mark Lane, Jim Garrison, Harold Weisberg, Jim Marr, Sylvia Meagher, Joan Mellon, Gaeton Fonzi, Lamar Waldron, Larry Hancock, Bill Simpich or any other researcher in the past half-century.

This is NEW evidence, I say, and it will soon crack the JFK murder case at long last.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

I know I am going to regret asking this but, with respect to this comment:

Edwin Walker used Lee Harvey Oswald to kill JFK because he truly believed that JFK tried to use Lee Harvey Oswald to kill Edwin Walker

Has anybody ever found anything in the papers of JFK or at any Presidential Library or anyplace else which reveals that JFK ever knew anything about LHO? OR

After Walker was reprimanded and he resigned from the Army and after Walker was humiliated by being unable to convince his fellow Texans to even consider him as a viable candidate for Governor (placing 6th in a field of 6 candidates in the primary) and after he was further discredited as a consequence of his University of Mississippi behavior ---- is there any evidence that JFK cared one whit about Walker -- much less had developed so much animus toward Walker that JFK wanted him killed?

[Paul Brancato]

Paul T - your definitions of who is a nazi and who isn't, your nuances as you put it, are increasingly imaginary. Walker, touring around the south with racists, living with neo nazis and confessing to real German nazis, is somehow not himself a racist or a nazi, just a friendly anti-communist politically expedient Bircher who just happened to plot and carry out the murder of the president of the USA because at heart he was really one of the good guys, a true patriot, who, apparently, went a little too far in his self righteous indignation. Sheer fantasy.

[Paul Trejo]

...With respect to this comment:

Edwin Walker used Lee Harvey Oswald to kill JFK because he truly believed that JFK tried to use Lee Harvey Oswald to kill Edwin Walker[/size]

Has anybody ever found anything in the papers of JFK or at any Presidential Library or anyplace else which reveals that JFK ever knew anything about LHO? OR

After Walker was reprimanded and he resigned from the Army and after Walker was humiliated by being unable to convince his fellow Texans to even consider him as a viable candidate for Governor (placing 6th in a field of 6 candidates in the primary) and after he was further discredited as a consequence of his University of Mississippi behavior ---- is there any evidence that JFK cared one whit about Walker -- much less had developed so much animus toward Walker that JFK wanted him killed?

Well, Ernie, from the evidence I've seen, apparently JFK and RFK thought that Edwin Walker was nuts. This is why they remanded him to the Springfield, MO insane asylum on 1 October 1962.

Their very real worry about Edwin Walker showed in their personal support toward the producers of the movie, Seven Days in May, starring Burt Lancaster as the seditious US General who built a wild following with his right-wing speeches, and who tried to take over the government.

Yet their treatment of Walker was more clearly reflected in the "General Jack D. Ripper" character from the movie, Dr. Strangelove, -- a suicidal nut case.

One must remember, however, that JFK and RFK were severely criticized for their decision to send Edwin Walker to an insane asylum, not only by the right-wing, but also by the left-wing, including the ACLU and Dr. Thomas Szasz personally.

It was perhaps the biggest domestic blunder of JFK's career. The Kennedy brothers had to backpedal on that decision very quickly -- and instead of the standard 90 day observation period, Walker was released in only 3 days, with all but an apology from RFK.

But it was an over-reaction. Even the ACLU argued that only the USSR would stoop so low as to use Psychiatry for political purposes. This was the Cold War -- the right-wing may have been wrong at Ole Miss in 1962, but you don't call the Psychiatrists when you should call the Police.

If Edwin Walker had been normally arrested, charged and tried for his crimes at Ole Miss, I feel certain that Walker would have served many years of prison time. That was what JFK should have done.

As it was, Walker was acquitted of all charges, and he emerged behaving worse than ever -- he basically went underground and began dealing with Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Larry Howard, Joseph Milteer, Carlos Bringuier, and Guy Banister, among others.

JFK and RFK did lose sight of Edwin Walker. Walker was humiliated in the public media -- and to this very day millions of people just remember Walker as "that nut." Big mistake. Walker was a US General -- and no matter his intellectual shortcomings, he was as shrewd as a jungle tiger -- and he was a global expert in military and paramilitary operations.

JFK and RFK lost sight of Edwin Walker -- but Walker never lost sight of JFK and RFK.

It seems that Walker suffered from a mild case of paranoia -- this was according to two psychiatrists of the dozen or so who examined him. Not enough to restrain him, but enough to notice medically.

After he emerged from his insane asylum experience, Walker was indeed afraid of RFK and JFK. Also, Walker knew good and well that he should have been punished for his crimes at Ole Miss -- and that to be acquitted of those crimes he had to lie to the Grand Jury. Walker had a conscience -- it probably bothered him.

Yet Edwin Walker had also lived with a life-long crime, namely, being a homosexual in the US Army at a time when it was a court-martial offense to be homosexual. Even though he was gay, Edwin Walker rose to the rank of Major General. This means that he had to lie every day of his career -- he had to live in the closet for life. Edwin Walker had become accustomed to lying.

In any case, after Lee Harvey Oswald (as I believe) tried to murder Edwin Walker in his home in Dallas on 10 April 1963 at the urging of George De Mohrenshildt, Volkmar Schmidt and various, young Dallas engineers, Edwin Walker lost his cool.

It was at this point that Walker decided that RFK and JFK were out to kill him. It was partly because he escaped the true charges of sedition at Ole Miss that Walker felt guilty, and then when Oswald failed to kill him, Walker blamed the whole event on RFK and JFK. This is very plain from his personal papers.

I don't believe that RFK and JFK hired Lee Harvey Oswald to kill Edwin Walker. That was Walker's paranoia talking.

But I do believe that Edwin Walker truly, truly, truly believed that Oswald worked for RFK.

Some leak in the US Government told Edwin Walker on Easter Sunday 1963 that Lee Harvey Oswald was his shooter, but that the government wouldn't prosecute -- for some reason. This is what Walker says in his personal papers, and it is also what Walker told the German newspaper, Deutsche Nationalzeitung less than 24 hours after JFK was murdered.

This was Walker's justification for using Lee Harvey Oswald as his patsy. It comes clear in his personal papers. Here's just one more example among many. This is a four-page article by Edwin Walker, dated 12 June 1968, in response to the assassination of RFK. Skip down to the final paragraph to see Walker's attitude (he writes of himself in the third person) and behold his Near-Confession:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19680612_RFK_released_Oswald.pdf

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited November 8, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Ernie Lazar]

...With respect to this comment:

Edwin Walker used Lee Harvey Oswald to kill JFK because he truly believed that JFK tried to use Lee Harvey Oswald to kill Edwin Walker[/size]

Has anybody ever found anything in the papers of JFK or at any Presidential Library or anyplace else which reveals that JFK ever knew anything about LHO? OR

After Walker was reprimanded and he resigned from the Army and after Walker was humiliated by being unable to convince his fellow Texans to even consider him as a viable candidate for Governor (placing 6th in a field of 6 candidates in the primary) and after he was further discredited as a consequence of his University of Mississippi behavior ---- is there any evidence that JFK cared one whit about Walker -- much less had developed so much animus toward Walker that JFK wanted him killed?

Well, Ernie, from the evidence I've seen, apparently JFK and RFK thought that Edwin Walker was nuts. This is why they remanded him to the Springfield, MO insane asylum on 1 October 1962.

Their very real worry about Edwin Walker showed in their personal support toward the producers of the movie, Seven Days in May, starring Burt Lancaster as the seditious US General who built a wild following in his right-wing speeches, who tried to take over the government.

Yet their treatment of Walker was clearly reflected in the "General Jack D. Ripper" character from the movie, Dr. Strangelove, -- a suicidal nut case.

One must remember, however, that JFK and RFK were severely criticized for their decision to send Edwin Walker to an insane asylum, not only by the right-wing, but also by the left-wing, including the ACLU and Dr. Thomas Szasz personally.

It was perhaps the biggest domestic blunder of JFK's career. The Kennedy brothers had to backpedal on that decision very quickly -- and instead of the standard 90 day observation period, Walker was released in only 3 days, with all but an apology from RFK.

But it was an over-reaction. Even the ACLU argued that only the USSR would stoop so low as to use Psychiatry for political purposes. This was the Cold War -- the right-wing may have been wrong at Ole Miss in 1962, but you don't call the Psychiatrists when you should call the Police.

If Edwin Walker had been normally arrested, charged and tried for his crimes at Ole Miss, I feel certain that Walker would have served many years of prison time. That was what JFK should have done.

As it was, Walker was acquitted of all charges, and he emerged behaving worse than ever -- he basically went underground and began dealing with Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Larry Howard, Joseph Milteer, Carlos Bringuier, and Guy Banister, among others.

JFK and RFK did lose sight of Edwin Walker. Walker was humiliated in the public media -- and to this very day millions of people just remember Walker as "that nut." Big mistake. Walker was a US General -- and no matter his intellectual shortcomings, he was as shrewd as a jungle tiger -- and a global expert in military and paramilitary operations.

JFK and RFK lost sight of Edwin Walker -- but Walker never lost sight of JFK and RFK.

It seems that Walker suffered from a mild case of paranoia -- this was according to two psychiatrists of the dozen or so who examined him. Not enough to restrain him, but enough to notice medically.

After he emerged from his insane asylum experience, Walker was indeed afraid of RFK and JFK. Also, Walker knew good and well that he should have been punished for his crimes at Ole Miss -- and that to be acquitted of those crimes he had to lie to the Grand Jury. Walker had a conscience -- it probably bothered him.

Yet Edwin Walker had also lived with a life-long crime, namely, being a homosexual in the US Army at a time when it was a court-martial offense to be homosexual. Even though he was gay, Edwin Walker rose to the rank of Major General. This means that he had to lie every day of his career -- he had to live in the closet for life. Edwin Walker had become accustomed to lying.

In any case, after Lee Harvey Oswald (as I believe) tried to murder Edwin Walker in his home in Dallas on 10 April 1963 at the urging of George De Mohrenshildt, Volkmar Schmidt and various, young Dallas engineers, Edwin Walker lost his cool.

It was at this point that Walker decided that RFK and JFK were out to kill him. It was partly because he escaped the true charges of sedition at Ole Miss that Walker felt guilty, and then when Oswald failed to kill him, Walker blamed the whole event on RFK and JFK. This is very plain from his personal papers.

I don't believe that RFK and JFK hired Lee Harvey Oswald to kill Edwin Walker. That was Walker's paranoia talking.

But I do believe that Edwin Walker truly, truly, truly believed that Oswald worked for RFK.

Some leak in the US Government told Edwin Walker on Easter Sunday 1963 that Lee Harvey Oswald was his shooter, but that the government wouldn't prosecute -- for some reason. This is what Walker says in his personal papers, and it is also what Walker told the German newspaper, Deutsche Nationalzeitung less than 24 hours after JFK was murdered.

This was Walker's justification for using Lee Harvey Oswald as his patsy. It comes clear in his personal papers. Here's just one more example among many. This is a three-page article by Edwin Walker, dated 12 June 1968, in response to the assassination of RFK. Skip down to the final paragraph to see Walker's attitude and Near-Confession:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19680612_RFK_released_Oswald.pdf

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Long comment to report that the actual answer to my question is "no"