Two Oswalds in the Texas Theater

[Jim Hargrove]

12 hours ago, Bill Simpich said:

In regards to Ron's question about why Julia told the police that the man went up in the balcony - I have to initially say that the evidence indicates Brewer and Burroughs told her he was up there before she called the police. 

But I also have to say that it is not in her initial statement, nor does she say it to the Warren Commission.   The dispatcher or the cops could have it cooked it up.

If you review the three statements of Brewer, Burroughs and Postal to the WC, which pretty much match their initial statements as reported in the press, and statements to the police by Postal - you will see that at 1:30 to 1:35 Brewer was in hot pursuit of the Oswald-type character when he "ducked" by Postal into the Theatre. 

I say 1:30 to 1:35 because Postal knew that JFK was dead before the Oswald-type character entered the theatre.  She said the news was announced "just about the time all chaos broke loose".

This was 15-20 minutes after Oswald entered the theatre and later bought popcorn from Burroughs at 1:15 - according to Burroughs' statement to Jim Marrs in 1987 - and I think it was done to provoke a call to the police to the theatre.  

I have listened to Jones Harris' very explicit description to me of his interview with Postal - and he and others at the interview were convinced that Postal knew that she had sold a ticket to Oswald - but she would not admit and will never admit.  She didn't just cry when asked if she sold him a ticket - she lost her bearings - and it happened twice.

John Armstrong describes the route to the balcony:  "The Texas Theater has a main floor level and a balcony. Upon entering the theater from the "outside doors," there are stairs leading to the balcony on the right. Straight ahead are a second set of "inside doors" leading to the concession stand and the main floor. It is possible to go directly to the balcony, without being seen by people at the concession stand, by climbing the stairs to the right." 

Thus, From the door, the Oswald-type character could either go straight up the stairs to the balcony, or he could enter the ground floor while passing by Burroughs' concession stand.

Brewer and Burroughs looked for the character on the ground floor and checked the doors - since the doors were locked and they couldn't be locked from the outside, they assumed that the character was still in the theatre and was not seen in the ground floor.  Burroughs said that he assumed that he had "sneaked up the stairs real fast" because the stairway was near the entry door - and was now up in the balcony.   Brewer said they looked up in the balcony and "couldn't see anything", probably because it was so dark. They "told Julia that we hadn't seen him...and she called the police".  The dispatcher reported that she told the police the man was "hiding in the balcony" - probably because that's what they told her.

One of the cops claim that Postal told them when they got there that the suspect was in the balcony:  K.D. Lyons, who was in the car with Hill and Bentley and Oswald during that very questionable ride.  Did others tell that tale?  This needs further research.

It is intriguing to note that the news story reports that it was the mysterious manager John Callahan who turned the lights on and exposed LHO to the police.  Postal said that just as Oswald entered the building, Callahan came running out the other way, and "got in his car...to see where (the police) were going."  Another report says that the "manager on duty" had seen one man in the theater "since 12:05".  To my knowledge, Callahan was never questioned by anybody.

The post by Mr. Simpich shows clearly how poor the “investigation” into the events at the Texas Theater really was.  Not only was the list of theater patrons lost,  manager John Callahan was never questioned by the police, nor the FBI, nor the sheriff’s department, nor the Warren Commission, even though his timing leaving the theater seems utterly bizarre, at least as described by Mrs. Postal.

Worse yet, there is no indication that there was any attempt to identify the so-called  “manager on duty” described in Det. John Toney’s report. The non-existent “manager on duty” falsely claimed that the Oswald-type character in the balcony had been in the theater since 12:05 pm, when, in fact, the theater didn’t open until 12:45.  If this “manager on duty” was not John Callahan, and the evidence clearly suggests he wasn’t, he may well have been a conspirator providing a much needed alibi for the Oswald who led police to the theater. 

There is no indication that Det. Toney even bothered to get or report the name of this “manager on duty.” Nor was there any attempt to identify him later, at least that I’m aware of.  It is shameful!  This false manager might have provided a direct link to the conspirators who set up "Lee Harvey Oswald" as the patsy in this case.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 10/24/2019 at 9:06 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

The post by Mr. Simpich shows clearly how poor the “investigation” into the events at the Texas Theater really was.  Not only was the list of theater patrons lost,  manager John Callahan was never questioned by the police, nor the FBI, nor the sheriff’s department, nor the Warren Commission, even though his timing leaving the theater seems utterly bizarre, at least as described by Mrs. Postal.

Worse yet, there is no indication that there was any attempt to identify the so-called  “manager on duty” described in Det. John Toney’s report. The non-existent “manager on duty” falsely claimed that the Oswald-type character in the balcony had been in the theater since 12:05 pm, when, in fact, the theater didn’t open until 12:45.  If this “manager on duty” was not John Callahan, and the evidence clearly suggests he wasn’t, he may well have been a conspirator providing a much needed alibi for the Oswald who led police to the theater. 

There is no indication that Det. Toney even bothered to get or report the name of this “manager on duty.” Nor was there any attempt to identify him later, at least that I’m aware of.  It is shameful!  This false manager might have provided a direct link to the conspirators who set up "Lee Harvey Oswald" as the patsy in this case.

Jim,

I don't believe Julia Postal saw anyone "ducking in" as later described by Johnny Brewer. By her own admission, she had left the ticket booth and was facing WEST on Jefferson a the time of the alleged "duck in". In her own words, she then turned around (now facing east) to see Brewer and answer his question about the stranger. (Remember, Hardy's Shoes, the place from which Brewer's suspect had allegedly came, was EAST of the Texas Theater.)

Mr. BALL. What did you see him do after he came around the corner?
Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I didn't actually----because I stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the box office facing west, because I thought .the police were stopping up quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around expecting to see him.
Mr. BALL. And he had ducked in?
Mrs. POSTAL. And Mr. Brewer said he had been ducking in at his place of business, and he had gone by me, because I was facing west, and I said, "Go in and see if you can see him," it isn't too much people in there. So, he came and says, well, he didn't see him, and I says, "Well, he has to be there." So I told him to go back and check----we have exit doors, behind--one behind the stage and one straight through, and asked him to check them, check the lounges because I knew he was in there. Well, he just had to be.
Mr. BALL. The last time you had seen him before he ducked in, he was just standing outside of the door, was he?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; he was still just in (WHERE JULIA? WHERE WAS THIS MAN? "Still"IN A POLICE CAR MAYBE, ABOUT TO GET OUT, OR "STILL JUST IN"  WHAT?) ----just off of the sidewalk, and he headed for the theater.

"Still" just off of the sidewalk" ???

If someone is "still" "just off of the sidewalk", then that someone is NOT on the sidewalk. 

Did Brewer's man wobble into the street?

Did Brewer's man emerge from a vehicle?

Did Brewer's man even exist?

I don't believe Julia Postal ever saw Johnny Brewer's suspect. She had no idea about the guy Johnny Brewer described. She was facing the wrong way - that's why she told Brewer to go in and look for him. She didn't know for whom to look!

(Johnny Brewer didn't know either - he was prompted/cajoled/directed by the two mysterious "men" (obviously law enforcement for whom Brewer was a regular contact, cough, cough)  in Hardy's Shoes to chase and report a suspect - but that's a separate topic.)

I highlighted Postal's testimony in which she all but admitted that she never saw a suspect. According to the official transcript, she stopped herself just in time. But, of course, Jim has shown that games were played with the transcripts all the time, so who knows what she really said?

Edited October 25, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[Steve Thomas]

6 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim,

I don't believe Julia Postal saw anyone "ducking in" as later described by Johnny Brewer. eally said?

Paul,

 

I like this exchange:

Mr. BALL. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on, why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see the man that ducked?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in.

Mr. BALL. Now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you seen him before the car went by, the police went by?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed,

Mr. BALL. What did you see him do after became around the corner?
Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I didn't actually---

So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it was their man, and I said, "Well, I didn't know," and he said, "Well, it fits the description," and I have not---I said I hadn't heard the description. All I know is, "This man is running from them for some reason." And he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know----well, if he fits the description is what he says. I said, "Let me tell you what he looks like and you take it from there." And explained that he had on this brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you,"

 

Everytime the sirens went by?  How many sirens did go by? How many times was he "ducking"

How could the police operator know Oswald fit the description before Postal even gave it to him?

 

Steve Thomas

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Steve Thomas

[Paul Jolliffe]

28 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

 

I like this exchange:

Mr. BALL. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on, why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see the man that ducked?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in.

Mr. BALL. Now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you seen him before the car went by, the police went by?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed,

Mr. BALL. What did you see him do after became around the corner?
Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I didn't actually---

So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it was their man, and I said, "Well, I didn't know," and he said, "Well, it fits the description," and I have not---I said I hadn't heard the description. All I know is, "This man is running from them for some reason." And he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know----well, if he fits the description is what he says. I said, "Let me tell you what he looks like and you take it from there." And explained that he had on this brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you,"

 

Everytime the sirens went by?  How many sirens did go by? How many times was he "ducking"

How could the police operator know Oswald fit the description before Postal even gave it to him?

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

 

Steve Thomas

 

Amen, Steve.

There is no way that Julia Postal saw Brewer's suspect. She couldn't even relate a coherent story before the Warren Commission, and they had to know it!

Suborning perjury is a felony, and Joseph Ball was guilty as hell. 

U.S. Law

In American federal law, Title 18 U.S.C. § 1622 provides:

Whoever procures another to commit any perjury is guilty of subornation of perjury, and shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

The term subornation of perjury further describes the circumstance wherein an attorney at law causes a client to lie under oath or, allows another party to lie under oath.^[1][2]

[Jim Hargrove]

Yeah, you both make good cases against Mrs. Postal, but what documents and testimonies do you distrust the least in this case?  In her 12/4/64 affidavit, Mrs. Postal said, “...at 1:30 pm or a little later.... As the police went by, a man ducked inside the theater.... In a minute or two the police were there.... In a matter of about 10 minutes, the officers came out with the man that I had called about.”

*IF* she actually saw what she described above, which she probably didn't, my bet is that the man she saw brought out by the police looked quite a bit like the man who entered the theater just after 1:30, but wasn’t the same man.

And why on earth did it take some two weeks to get a signed affidavit from Mrs. Postal?
 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Steve Thomas]

54 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

And why on earth did it take some two weeks to get a signed affidavit from Mrs. Postal?
 

Jim,

 

Yeah, and why at 7:45 at night?

 

Steve Thomas

[Paul Jolliffe]

36 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Yeah, you both make good cases against Mrs. Postal, but what documents and testimonies do you distrust the least in this case?  In her 12/4/64 affidavit, Mrs. Postal said, “...at 1:30 pm or a little later.... As the police went by, a man ducked inside the theater.... In a minute or two the police were there.... In a matter of about 10 minutes, the officers came out with the man that I had called about.”

*IF* she actually saw what she described above, which she probably didn't, my bet is that the man she saw brought out by the police looked quite a bit like the man who entered the theater just after 1:30, but wasn’t the same man.

And why on earth did it take some two weeks to get a signed affidavit from Mrs. Postal?
 

Jim asked "why on earth did it take some two weeks to get a signed affidavit from Mrs. Postal?"

For the same reason it took two weeks to get an affidavit from Johnny Brewer: the Dallas Police did not realize until then that an excuse for their arrival at the theater had to be cooked up. 

We know there were calls to the DPD dispatcher from inside the Texas Theater about the presence of "Oswald" at a time when no one knew about "Oswald". 

We also know from the Ron Reiland broadcast film that the DPD was told that their suspect entered the Texas Theater carrying a shotgun, and that the DPD reacted immediately to this news. That was what set the cops racing to the theater en masse, not the belated, incoherent phone call from the mousy Julia Postal about a man who may or may not have paid for a movie ticket.

The conspirators pre-planned the Brewer/Postal cover story, but they took no chances: the DPD were coming to the theater to arrest (kill?) "Oswald" whether Brewer was able to persuade Postal to make the covering phone call or not. 

All the conspirators needed was to tell (order) Brewer to get Postal to make the call. Then everything else would fall in place. 

What excuse did they use to get Brewer to comply?

I don't know, but the most logical explanation is that they were known to Brewer, and that he trusted them. I doubt Brewer had any idea he was a pawn in the assassination plot, a part of the frame-up of "Oswald". Whether he's ever allowed himself to contemplate "Oswald's" innocence is doubtful. 

No wonder he is reluctant to talk much about it, even today!

[Ron Bulman]

What Bill Simpich says about the Jones Harris interview is new to me.  If she cried, broke down, witnessed by others, twice, she was hiding something.  Maybe she did sell Oswald a ticket around 1:05 but she obviously didn't sell one to the man Brewer told her had snuck in behind her while she was out front looking West.  Since Brewer was following O2 from East to West.  But she knew she couldn't talk about the first Oswald.  Everything was about O2 she hadn't seen that just snuck in at 1:30-1:35, then the police bring out O1 she had sold a ticket to a half hour before.  Pointed out previously, they had two weeks to work on her affidavit.

Then in the WC testimony Paul J provides she tells Ball she did not see whoever snuck in behind her, since she was facing West.  But in the part Steve provides she says she did see him, with a panicked look on his face.  Inconsistent, and unstable in the interview.  

Edited October 26, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[Steve Thomas]

7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Then in the WC testimony Paul J provides she tells Ball she did not see whoever snuck in behind her, since she was facing West.  But in the part Steve provides she says she did see him, with a panicked look on his face.  Inconsistent, and unstable in the interview.  

Ron,

 

Did you read her Affidavit that Jim Hargrove made reference to? You can see a copy in the DPD Archives in Box 2, Folder# 3, Item# 21 here:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

(With Box 2, you have to follow the numbers on the right hand side of the page)

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. She saw Oswald duck into the Theater without paying for a ticket, and didn't do anything about it. Instead, she went outside and stood on the sidewalk looking at the police down the street. She was the one who insisted on calling the police because she knew he was running from the police because of her "woman's intuition". What a crock.

 

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

Jack Ruby’s friend Tommy Rowe also worked at Hardy's Shoe Store.  Considering that we now believe Ruby was far more involved in the assassination plot than previously suspected, it seems quite likely that it was Rowe who told Brewer about the man in the brown shirt ducking into the theater.  Interesting, of course, that the original police dispatches named a man in a white jacket and white shirt as Tippit’s killer.

[Paul Jolliffe]

8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Ron,

 

Did you read her Affidavit that Jim Hargrove made reference to? You can see a copy in the DPD Archives in Box 2, Folder# 3, Item# 21 here:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

(With Box 2, you have to follow the numbers on the right hand side of the page)

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. She saw Oswald duck into the Theater without paying for a ticket, and didn't do anything about it. Instead, she went outside and stood on the sidewalk looking at the police down the street. She was the one who insisted on calling the police because she knew he was running from the police because of her "woman's intuition". What a crock.

 

Steve Thomas

"What a crock."

You got that right, Steve.

Julia Postal even admitted in her affidavit that she had no idea about Johnny Brewer's suspect ("I asked him what man?") . . . 

More interesting to me from Postal's affidavit is that Brewer made not one, but TWO searches of the Texas Theater BEFORE the DPD arrived, and Brewer was unable to identify his suspect either time! Both times Brewer reported to Postal that he could not see whomever it was he was looking for! 

1. "He went in and looked, then came out and said that he didn't see him." 

2. "Then the two of them (Brewer and Burroughs) came back out, and Johnny said he just wasn't in there."

 

This strongly supports my contention from two months ago that Brewer understood neither why nor for whom he was to look. (His words from 1996: "What the hell am I doing here?")

Steve, you may recall my posts from that time in which I argued that Brewer had been urged/prompted/directed/ordered to follow the man from Hardy's Shoes and then to cajole Julia Postal into placing the call to the DPD. 

I pointed out then that although "Oswald" was indeed known to and remembered by Brewer ("Oswald" had been a memorably obnoxious customer at Hardy's some weeks earlier), according to the official narrative, Brewer failed to recognize "Oswald" while ducking in to Hardy's around 1:30!  This contradiction was suppressed from the narrative - since Brewer knew "Oswald" previously, why didn't he recognize him on 11/22/63?

My answer was simple: "Oswald" never stepped into Hardy's on 11/22/63! The man who stepped into Hardy's around 1:30 however briefly was unknown to Brewer. 

It is clear from all of Brewer's interviews and statements that he stepped out onto the sidewalk to watch a man head toward the Texas Theater. 

It is also clear that neither Brewer nor anyone else standing in front of Hardy's could have seen whether anyone bought a ticket to the theater. 

What happened next was systematically hidden from every filmed version of the narrative: Brewer then returned to Hardy's and spoke with at least one person there before heading up the sidewalk himself to speak with Julia Postal. 

Jim Hargrove (and John Armstrong) believe that someone named Tommy Rowe was at Hardy's and persuaded Brewer to give chase and report the suspect.

Perhaps. But the evidence for that is so incredibly thin that other possibilities ought to be considered. 

Brewer himself told us in 1996 that in fact there were two longstanding acquaintances of his (the "IBM men") with whom he spoke before setting off to the theater.

Whoever these men (or man) were/was, their presence was scrubbed from the narrative for three decades, only to be revealed in 1996. Don't believe me? Look back at the three filmed versions of the Brewer story that I posted back in August. All three were carefully edited to omit the key moment when Brewer returned to Hardy's and spoke with at least one person there!

Those men/man were conspirators, directing Brewer to get Julia Postal to make the covering call to the cops about the suspect in the theater. That's why their presence was hidden for so long. And it's also why the Julia Postal/Johnny Brewer story never made any sense - Postal never saw the suspect, and Brewer didn't know why he was to look for a stranger in the theater! Finally, that explains the two week time lag on the affidavits - it took the DPD that long to realize the flimsy Postal/Brewer narrative was needed, and to pressure Postal and Brewer to comply.

They both did, eventually.

It also explains why neither Postal nor Brewer had anything much to say about that day for decades to come.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[Steve Thomas]

Johnny Brewer and Julia Postal are both listening to the radio on their transistor radios.

Johnny Brewer hears on his radio that a policeman has been shot in Oak Cliff.

Julia Postal, listening to KLIF on her radio, does not.

What station is Brewer listening to?

From Johnny Brewer:

From Julia Postal:

From Julia Postal's WC testimony:

" So, seemed like I hung up the intercom phone when here all of a sudden, police cars, policemen, plainclothesmen, I never saw so many people in my life. And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were carrying----well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said, "I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?" And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's,"do with Tippit.

 

Julia Postal's call to the police was in reference to JFK's assassination, and had nothing to do with Tippit.

Are she and Brewer listening to two different radio stations?

 

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

4 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim Hargrove (and John Armstrong) believe that someone named Tommy Rowe was at Hardy's and persuaded Brewer to give chase and report the suspect.

Perhaps. But the evidence for that is so incredibly thin that other possibilities ought to be considered. 

True enough.  I only know of two sources for the Tommy Rowe story.  One is from the Garrison files, apparently summarizing an interview of Rowe with the D.A.’s staff:

The other, which may be based on the above, is from a Penn Jones piece in the Aug. 21, 1971 Midlothian Mirror.

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

56 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

True enough.  I only know of two sources for the Tommy Rowe story.  One is from the Garrison files, apparently summarizing an interview of Rowe with the D.A.’s staff:

The other, which may be based on the above, is from a Penn Jones piece in the Aug. 21, 1971 Midlothian Mirror.

 

Jim,

The Penn Jones piece in the Aug. 21, 1971 Midlothian Mirror, does not claim that Penn Jones himself ever talked with Tommy Rowe. It merely states that Rowe told relatives about his relationship with Ruby and his role at Hardy's Shoes. It does not even state that Penn Jones interviewed one of those relatives about Rowe's statements. Instead, it seemingly implies that Jones heard of Rowe's admissions to his relatives via some third party who, presumably, then told Penn Jones.

So, the 1971 statements could be true.

But they are far enough removed from a direct quote that I think caution is in order when assessing their validity.

Penn Jones himself admitted in print on 3/1/68 - second column below, halfway down -  that he was never able to find or interview Tommy Rowe, and that as of that date, he had given up trying. We don't know what, if anything, transpired between 3/1/68 and 8/21/71, but the above 1971 editorial never claimed anything more than what Jones said in 1968, and as of that date, Jones had never talked with Rowe.

We need to be careful here. After all, we do have a living witness, Johnny Brewer, who might yet enlighten us as to who was with him in Hardy's Shoes on that afternoon. 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[Jim Hargrove]

Paul,

Fair enough, but Mr. Jones in the Midlothian Mirror piece merely said this: "Rowe told relatives that he, not Brewer, pointed out Oswald. Rowe was so close to Ruby that Rowe moved into Ruby's South Ewing apartment when Ruby went to jail."  The irritatingly short description in the Garrison doc seems to say the same thing, at least according to Rowe.

This certainly is not proof, and there is no reason not to pursue the "IBM men" angle as well.  A proper investigation of all this stuff in 1964 could have easily found the truth.  One thing is utterly obvious: The authorities did not want to know all that happened at the Texas Theater that afternoon.