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Armstrong, Westbrook and the details.


Jake Hammond
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After some time off I'm back interested in the case and have decided to focus right in and create something for other researchers to use as a visual tool, relating to the events after the assassination, up to Oswalds arrest. I've been listening a lot to john Armstrong talk on black op Radio on these events and have cross referenced some key points but wanted to ask a few questions , essentially to tap into the vast knowledge on here and avoid false assumptions. So....

 1) Is there any contrary evidence to the theory that Westbrook was the only one who mentioned a witness who saw the jacket discarded ? Its a really key point in the timeline post assassination. 

2) Is there anything to contradict the police car in the alley way at the Tippit scene ? I mean a witness who says categorically that there wasn't one ? 

 3) Where did his mistress live ?  at 410 next to the alley ? ( JA emphasises two witnesses that highlight that 'he' lived there)  but then there seems to be another train of thought that it was down the road ( sorry can't recall the exact address) . Were there more than one ? 

 4) Has anyone come up with a sound reconciliation for the varying statements of the ' witnesses ' to the Tippit killing ? I have a feeling that there are lots of factors involved and have my own thoughts here but it is a minefield !

 Apologies for my lack of knowledge here but those with more knowledge please understand that not everyone can know everything and my intentions are to learn more and produce something valid. I have searched the site but there are 200 pages and the top results when I searched weren't quite right. 

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Hi, Jake.  These are some pretty tough questions, but here’s my take on them....

1.  According to Dale Meyers writing in With Malice…., Westbrook radioed the following (emphasis added by me):

There is nothing to this Marsalis here. Let’s get back up to the place and work to North Jefferson. We got a witness that seen him going north after he shed his jacket....

The above has sometimes been quoted slightly differently, suggesting Westbrook or whoever was speaking claimed a witness saw the suspect take off the jacket. To my knowledge, no one has ever claimed to have seen the jacket being discarded.  I believe the Oswald killed by Jack Ruby left the TSBD in a blue jacket, which was later placed back into the building to be “discovered” there.

2.  I’m not aware of anyone who specifically said there was no car in the driveway blocked by Tippit’s car.  But only Doris Holan (and possibly one or two others) did see it. The driveway was narrow, wedged between two houses and partially obscured by Tippit’s car.  Doris Holan from her second floor window directly across the street was perfectly positioned to see over Tippit’s car and look down the narrow driveway.

3. Young Virginia Davis, who lived just two houses away, thought Tippit lived at the 410/408 duplex on E. Tenth, so he must have gone there frequently. 

4.  The witnesses to the Tippit slaying really are all over the place, but it might be helpful when analyzing them to consider how far away each one was from the killing site. Some often quoted witnesses weren’t even in the same block.  One of the closest was Benavides, who thought the killer looked like “Oswald” but had a different haircut in the back.  Joseph McBride wrote Into the Nightmare about the Tippit killing and occasionally posts here.
 

Edited by Jim Hargrove
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Thank you JIm, there are so many questions but these few are where I'm at now. 

 1) Great info, I confess I haven't read ' with Mailce'  despite it been well rated, maybe because of some conflicting views I have, I'll get it on kindle if its available.  That statement ' after he shed his jacket'  could be inserted into a genuine witness of him moving north or just fabricated completely. 

 2) I think the credibility of Holan is key, its a strange thing to make up or imagine you saw. There is another you're right, I must go back and write his name down . 

 3) Do you know more specifics on anyone else who knew of his extra marital activities ? I've heard a few but nothing that really cements it in.

4) I'm reading 'into the nightmare' presently after reading it last year but not taking notes. I think 'mutual exclusivity in actual statements ( not their inferred meaning) and peoples recollections have a big part to play. Often people statements on face value seem to conflict but can be reconciled if you look at their exclusivity. E.g, two men at the scene, two men fleeing the scene, a man who 'looked like' Oswald, a man matching Oswalds description, one man shooting Tippit and running off discarding cartridges ... none of these conflict at all ! There seem to be a few too many who saw two men though for it to be imagined. Its a real mess when you get into it ! 

My aim is to make a time elapse 3d type map of peoples movements after the assassination, focusing on the oakcliff area. Make that into a youtube video and interject any key actions or possibly scenarios. Its a bigger project than it sounds because some details just aren't there and in some cases you have strongly argued points of contention. Like who was in the car that pulled up at the rooming house and if Olsen was involved etc...

Edited by Jake Hammond
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Jake,

My guess (and John A’s) is that Lee Oswald met up with Westbrook soon after he shot Tippit and handed the captain his wallet, revolver, and jacket.  Harvey was already in the theater.

The map idea sounds intriguing.  There are a number of graphics on the Nov 22 pages of my website that might help a bit.  Good luck!

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4 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Jake,

My guess (and John A’s) is that Lee Oswald met up with Westbrook soon after he shot Tippit and handed the captain his wallet, revolver, and jacket.  Harvey was already in the theater.

The map idea sounds intriguing.  There are a number of graphics on the Nov 22 pages of my website that might help a bit.  Good luck!

Jim,

It is plausible that Lee met Westbrook and gave him his wallet, revolver and jacket. But a few questions arise:

1. If Lee - after shooting Tippit - did meet up somewhere with Westbrook and gave him his wallet, then Westbrook must have returned to the Tippit scene in time to be filmed showing it to FBI agent Barrett. Exactly when, then, did Westbrook have time to drive Lee to the Texas Theater? Before or after he returned to the Tippit scene? 

2. Why would Westbrook drive Lee to the Texas Theater at all? What possible purpose could it serve if, as you and I agree, "Oswald" (Harvey) was already in the Texas Theater AND IF Westbrook already had Lee's incriminating wallet, revolver and gun? You and I agree that Westbrook could have (and  may have) substituted Lee's murder weapon for whatever gun was taken from Harvey. But that could have happened at any point on Friday afternoon, back at the DPD. 

3. There is evidence - not proof beyond a reasonable doubt - but evidence nonetheless, that Lee really was in the Texas Theater. I can think of no reason for his risky presence except to get the actual murder weapon into unwitting "Oswald's" hands. Otherwise, why would he be there at all? If Butch Burroughs is correct, then Lee was damn near arrested and the whole thing almost blew up right there!

Lee did not go to the Texas Theater to induce Johnny Brewer to get the chase going. You and I agree that was done by someone else (Tommy Rowe? "IBM men"? Someone else?) So why did Lee go at all if not to get the murder weapon into Harvey's hands?

 

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For an in-depth look at the duplicity of the pistol involving WESTBROOK....

https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsPistol.pdf

I also come to learn that George Rose and Co may actually be George Rhoades and Co... parent to SEAPORT
who gets the pistol from Century International Arms, Montreal... The SUCHERS

{edit} After giving the paper a read I see I only mention the Personnel Office as the place the shells are picked up....
Westbrook's office appears to have been pistol central, when one gets into the thick of things....

Edited by David Josephs
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2 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim,

It is plausible that Lee met Westbrook and gave him his wallet, revolver and jacket. But a few questions arise:

1. If Lee - after shooting Tippit - did meet up somewhere with Westbrook and gave him his wallet, then Westbrook must have returned to the Tippit scene in time to be filmed showing it to FBI agent Barrett. Exactly when, then, did Westbrook have time to drive Lee to the Texas Theater? Before or after he returned to the Tippit scene? 

2. Why would Westbrook drive Lee to the Texas Theater at all? What possible purpose could it serve if, as you and I agree, "Oswald" (Harvey) was already in the Texas Theater AND IF Westbrook already had Lee's incriminating wallet, revolver and gun? You and I agree that Westbrook could have (and  may have) substituted Lee's murder weapon for whatever gun was taken from Harvey. But that could have happened at any point on Friday afternoon, back at the DPD. 

3. There is evidence - not proof beyond a reasonable doubt - but evidence nonetheless, that Lee really was in the Texas Theater. I can think of no reason for his risky presence except to get the actual murder weapon into unwitting "Oswald's" hands. Otherwise, why would he be there at all? If Butch Burroughs is correct, then Lee was damn near arrested and the whole thing almost blew up right there!

Lee did not go to the Texas Theater to induce Johnny Brewer to get the chase going. You and I agree that was done by someone else (Tommy Rowe? "IBM men"? Someone else?) So why did Lee go at all if not to get the murder weapon into Harvey's hands?

Paul,

John A. is agnostic about this, but my guess is that Westbrook DID NOT drive Lee Oswald to the theater, BUT DID drive Harvey Oswald there earlier.   There is almost too much evidence about the plans to draw police to the theater—ADA Jim Bowie told Leo Sauvage there were a half dozen calls about the theater... Tommy Rowe... your “IBM men...” and I may be forgetting another or two.

But I still haven't been talked out of my suspicion that Lee Oswald’s assignment was to kill Tippit, enrage the Dallas Police, and then lead them to the Texas Theater, where Harvey the Schmuck was waiting to be captured.  If that wasn’t the plan, why bother with the nuisance of killing JD Tippit?

John A. counters with the entirely sensible argument that the planners surely wouldn't allow Tippit’s killer to risk being picked up by the cops while he walked to the theater—which could expose the entire operation.  I can only counter that the planners must have felt Westbrook and/or anyone else in the DPD under their control could make the potential problem go away.

Or not!  If this was easy, our parents would have solved it, eh?
 

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11 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim,

It is plausible that Lee met Westbrook and gave him his wallet, revolver and jacket. But a few questions arise:

1. If Lee - after shooting Tippit - did meet up somewhere with Westbrook and gave him his wallet, then Westbrook must have returned to the Tippit scene in time to be filmed showing it to FBI agent Barrett. Exactly when, then, did Westbrook have time to drive Lee to the Texas Theater? Before or after he returned to the Tippit scene? 

2. Why would Westbrook drive Lee to the Texas Theater at all? What possible purpose could it serve if, as you and I agree, "Oswald" (Harvey) was already in the Texas Theater AND IF Westbrook already had Lee's incriminating wallet, revolver and gun? You and I agree that Westbrook could have (and  may have) substituted Lee's murder weapon for whatever gun was taken from Harvey. But that could have happened at any point on Friday afternoon, back at the DPD. 

3. There is evidence - not proof beyond a reasonable doubt - but evidence nonetheless, that Lee really was in the Texas Theater. I can think of no reason for his risky presence except to get the actual murder weapon into unwitting "Oswald's" hands. Otherwise, why would he be there at all? If Butch Burroughs is correct, then Lee was damn near arrested and the whole thing almost blew up right there!

Lee did not go to the Texas Theater to induce Johnny Brewer to get the chase going. You and I agree that was done by someone else (Tommy Rowe? "IBM men"? Someone else?) So why did Lee go at all if not to get the murder weapon into Harvey's hands?

 

Thanks Paul,

1,2) it would make sense that Lee had to leave the scene alone, so wouldn't have gotten in the car with Westbrook, or whoever the car had in. He would leave the scene and then give the wallet, jacket and revolver to the conspirators, so not to get caught red handed. But beyond doubt 'Lee' was in the theatre so he went there for a reason. I don't see the issue as regards time, Westbrook had plenty of time to meet him after the killing of Tippit and take him to the theatre or close to. You are right though, he perhaps didn't need to. 

3) Could it not be the case that there is some truth to Tommy Rowe ? He may actually have seen someone ? I'm not sure thats off the table. But either way  'Lee' had to run in without buying a ticket, this incriminates Oswald and also gives the impression that he is running away and hiding, which Harvey really wasn't at all and wouldn't fit the main stream narrative, which we now have. The whole theatre drama was a bodge job and didn't go to plan BUT the basics did work.  My theory is that Lee was supposed to run in , be seen by someone ( he actually wasn't, perhaps because the manager was on break, or perhaps Postal did see him but was scared to say she'd seen two men) and then either kick up a fuss and buy a ticket OR simply leave via the back door. I think Macdonald turning up , Johny B watching the rear exit and the fact no one came to find Lee after he ran in, i.e Burroughs or the manager messed up the whole thing. Rowe may have coaxed Brewer into calling but after that he couldn't for example say, " hey Johny, don't watch the back door or look for the guy I told you about, Its all a big plan " etc...

 
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10 hours ago, David Josephs said:

For an in-depth look at the duplicity of the pistol involving WESTBROOK....

https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsPistol.pdf

I also come to learn that George Rose and Co may actually be George Rhoades and Co... parent to SEAPORT
who gets the pistol from Century International Arms, Montreal... The SUCHERS

{edit} After giving the paper a read I see I only mention the Personnel Office as the place the shells are picked up....
Westbrook's office appears to have been pistol central, when one gets into the thick of things....

Thank you, I'll have a look.

 

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12 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Jake,

My guess (and John A’s) is that Lee Oswald met up with Westbrook soon after he shot Tippit and handed the captain his wallet, revolver, and jacket.  Harvey was already in the theater.

The map idea sounds intriguing.  There are a number of graphics on the Nov 22 pages of my website that might help a bit.  Good luck!

I'll have a look at those graphics, I have an idea but there isn't one map or graphic that does everything so it will have to be done in two or there sections. 

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4 hours ago, Jake Hammond said:

Another Q.... 

  Who was it that stated that Oswald was wearing a brown shirt before leaving the TSBD ? Or did no one ? Thats kind of an important one . I can't see it in Bakers testimony, unless i'm reading the wrong one !

Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light? 
Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.
 

The briarloom button down shirt was indeed a lighter version of his arrest shirt

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59b2c8077dbac_Oswaldshirtwaschanged-allIDofthisshirtpriortocapturewasprovidedbyDPD.thumb.jpg.dcf006a821480e36c333d78f7f814831.jpg
 

Mr. BELIN - I hand you Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever seen a shirt like this before? Does this look familiar to the shirt that the suspect might have been wearing when you saw him, or this man running toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - It's the same type of shirt.
Mr. BELIN - I believe you used the phrase, "light shirt". Would Exhibit 150 be darker than the shirt he was wearing?
Mr. CRAIG - Uh--it looks darker in here--yes, uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN - Was this man running towards the station wagon wearing a jacket?
Mr. CRAIG - No; I don't believe he was.

Edited by David Josephs
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But it’s important to remember that Mrs Reid sees A different Oswald.... with a coke walking thru the office

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him? 
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you. 
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell? 
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot. 
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt? 
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on. 
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 or do you know? 
Mrs. REID. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once before but not since all this happened. 

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21 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

But it’s important to remember that Mrs Reid sees A different Oswald.... with a coke walking thru the office

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him? 
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you. 
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell? 
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot. 
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt? 
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on. 
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 or do you know? 
Mrs. REID. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once before but not since all this happened. 

Thank you,  I really need to look at all the statements again though, I've been looking more at the Tippit scene so forgotten a lot of what people said about the station wagon man or 'Lee'. I hadn't realised that Craig had seen a man in a light tan shirt though, I'd always assumed it was the light shirt/ jacket, as in the article ' found' by Westbrook in the parking lot. Confusing .

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