Did Rip Robertson have any involvement in AMWORLD?

[Greg Kooyman]

I am sorry if this has been discussed on an earlier thread, but I am wondering if Rip Robertson was ever involved in doing any PM training for the AMWORLD project.  I know Carl Jenkins was overall in charge of the training as it pertained to Maritime logistical operations, correct?   I know that Larry Hancock has written that this project had limited CIA participation and even then, it was in an advisory, and logistics support capacity.   I guess I am asking if Rip would have been used  in any way given that by 1963 Mongoose was pretty much done.

 

Much thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this for me..

[Larry Hancock]

Robertson was not involved in AMWORLD per se, he was still operationally  involved in the infrequent and low key boat operations out of JMWAVE though 1963 and into 1964.   Probably his biggest operation of 1963 was the summer TILT mission with Pawley.  Although Morales did oversee some PM training for a couple of the senior AMWORLD people - Artime and Quintero - the lists of the activities in that training look more like organizational and logistics skills for covert ops, not the sort of tactical expertise which would be Robertson's strong suit.  Its possible Morales might have done the training himself.  David Boylan found the records on the content but it did not specify the trainer.

However Robertson was involved with Cuban volunteers that were recruited for AMWORLD in 1964, at least the ones that were picked for the  Angola rescue operations and CIA mission to Angola in 1963.  In doing so he met up with some of the former Bay of Pigs air unit that had been taken into the Makasi air project in Angola as well.

During the last half of 1963 Robertson appears to have had a great deal of free time on his hands.

 

[Greg Kooyman]

4 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Robertson was not involved in AMWORLD per se, he was still operationally  involved in the infrequent and low key boat operations out of JMWAVE though 1963 and into 1964.   Probably his biggest operation of 1963 was the summer TILT mission with Pawley.  Although Morales did oversee some PM training for a couple of the senior AMWORLD people - Artime and Quintero - the lists of the activities in that training look more like organizational and logistics skills for covert ops, not the sort of tactical expertise which would be Robertson's strong suit.  Its possible Morales might have done the training himself.  David Boylan found the records on the content but it did not specify the trainer.

However Robertson was involved with Cuban volunteers that were recruited for AMWORLD in 1964, at least the ones that were picked for the  Angola rescue operations and CIA mission to Angola in 1963.  In doing so he met up with some of the former Bay of Pigs air unit that had been taken into the Makasi air project in Angola as well.

During the last half of 1963 Robertson appears to have had a great deal of free time on his hands.

Thank you Larry.   You know I embrace your theory on Rip's involvement in the Dallas event.   It is definitely interesting to know he had no official work going on in the last quarter of 1963.  

4 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

 

 

[Larry Hancock]

What makes it particularly interesting is that Rip's workload was not only light, but that several of the most well trained Cuban exiles (trained under Jenkins and operational under he and later Robertson) were also at relatively loose ends though the fall of 1963.  The early AMWORLD recruits were essentially taken off the books, given new identities and held for "black exfiltration" out of the US to Artime's new bases.  That did not occur until December/January.  It appears they stayed in Miami, may have taken some limited communications training but were essentially paid but on hold through the end of the year. 

A number of intensely trained paramilitary operators, eager for action and with access to black operating funds in special AMWORLD accounts at a Miami bank, available to buy weapons in the US and cover travel and expenses as needed.

What could possibly go wrong....

[Greg Kooyman]

And knowing that David Morales and Rip Robertson were tight and also drinking buddies, it boggles the mind to know what they would have discussed leading up to late 1963.

[Larry Hancock]

Probably as much as much as the drinking buddy conversations between Harvey, Roselli and Morales that spring. 

On a factual note, the search continues for actual operational documents involving Morales and Robertson from August on and although as Chief of Operations  you might expect Morales (Zamka) to be all over the place he is not that much in evidence.  And after TILT Robertson seems to just fade away. 

We do know that no sabotage operations were approved and boat ops were few and far between, perhaps that explains it.  But we also know that both Shackley and Morales were terribly frustrated and literally pissed off by the new SGA/Fitzgerald projects such as AMWORLD and AMTRUNK which they felt to be totally worthless.  

About the only  thing new that shows up is an sudden and unprecedented interest by WAVE and the AMOTS, including AMOTS in Mexico City in the Cuban who was becoming JFK's new backchannel to setting up actual meetings with Castro.

 

[David Boylan]

Quintero and Artime were trained by Ted Shackley, David Morales and Bradley Ayers in Jan 1964 to name a few.

[Larry Hancock]

David, do we have a document specifically naming Ayers?   I recall Shackley and Morales's names appearing but I did not remember Ayers?

[David Boylan]

7 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

David, do we have a document specifically naming Ayers?   I recall Shackley and Morales's names appearing but I did not remember Ayers?

Sure do. These are the training instructors. Zamka = Morales, Reuteman = Shackley and Darguzis = Ayers and Masengill = Cal Hicks.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=21347&relPageId=5

[Larry Hancock]

Thanks David, interestingly that is not at all the sort of thing Ayers described in his book...very interesting.  I think that is one of the new crypts you all have turned up, which are certainly revealing a lot of things we never had a handle on before.

[Ron Bulman]

5 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Probably as much as much as the drinking buddy conversations between Harvey, Roselli and Morales that spring. 

On a factual note, the search continues for actual operational documents involving Morales and Robertson from August on and although as Chief of Operations  you might expect Morales (Zamka) to be all over the place he is not that much in evidence.  And after TILT Robertson seems to just fade away. 

We do know that no sabotage operations were approved and boat ops were few and far between, perhaps that explains it.  But we also know that both Shackley and Morales were terribly frustrated and literally pissed off by the new SGA/Fitzgerald projects such as AMWORLD and AMTRUNK which they felt to be totally worthless.  

About the only  thing new that shows up is an sudden and unprecedented interest by WAVE and the AMOTS, including AMOTS in Mexico City in the Cuban who was becoming JFK's new backchannel to setting up actual meetings with Castro.

 

Larry, forgive my memory. Maybe it's from one of your books but isn't a drinking fishing/expedition in the spring of 1963 off the coast of Florida with Harvey and Roselli on board, Morales on shore (?) documented.  From motel/airline/charter receipts, at least on Harvey's part, statements regarding the others?

[Larry Hancock]

I think that's close Ron, we have the travel and expense documentation showing Harvey went to Miami, ostensibly to close down ZRIFLE - which at that point in time meant the Castro assassination activities with Roselli.  There is also a phone call that strongly suggests Roselli was there although as expected Harvey puts no true name in his report.  And a boat was rented when plenty were available from JMWAVE...suggesting Harvey wanted some privacy and did do a boat trip of some sort, maybe just fishing and drinking. Given that Morales had been supporting the operations and that three people were involved in the get together its likely he was involved but we have no hard proof.

What we do have though is an ongoing series of Harvey / Roselli meetings after that and as Harvey was going overseas - when Harvey had been ordered to avoid such meetings and repeatedly chose not to.  Those were very personal meetings in DC including Roselli staying with Harvey.

There was some sort of very strong personal bond there - just as later letters and correspondence would reveal between Harvey and Angleton, with them sharing some secret that could never be talked about (per an Angleton letter).

[Greg Kooyman]

Larry,

This correspondence between Harvey and Angleton intrigues me.   Can you share with us the source of the letters you are talking about?   I had never heard about this before.  Forgive me if you have mentioned it in any of your books. 

 

 

[Larry Hancock]

Greg, it is discussed and cited in NEXUS but the actual source is the excellent biography of William Harvey by Flawed Patriot by Bayard Stockton....based in documents and letters provided by Harvey's wife. Up to Stockton's work there had been a false narrative that the two men did not like each other and were either competitors or adversaries - Stockton's work totally put the lie to that.  We now know that Angleton assisted Harvey with his Castro assassination efforts and beyond that they appeared to have had some shared secret which we can only guess at.  I heartily recommend Flawed Patriot as required reading as it overturns a lot of the misconceptions about Harvey from the earliest years of JFK research.

[Anthony Mugan]

12 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Greg, it is discussed and cited in NEXUS but the actual source is the excellent biography of William Harvey by Flawed Patriot by Bayard Stockton....based in documents and letters provided by Harvey's wife. Up to Stockton's work there had been a false narrative that the two men did not like each other and were either competitors or adversaries - Stockton's work totally put the lie to that.  We now know that Angleton assisted Harvey with his Castro assassination efforts and beyond that they appeared to have had some shared secret which we can only guess at.  I heartily recommend Flawed Patriot as required reading as it overturns a lot of the misconceptions about Harvey from the earliest years of JFK research.

Larry

That is something I was also unaware of...

I’ve been trying to think of where Harvey and Angleton overlapped operationally, as they may we’ll have had a few shared secrets, to say the least.

The Philby case, Staff D operations (e.g. Mexico City) and possibly shared contacts in Italy spring to mind, and they must have worked together on all sorts of projects, as CI would have been involved in most things to some extent. I don’t think Harvey was involved in the Israeli A bomb business??? It’s not immediately obvious to me what would stand out as a shared secret above all the various projects they were involved in (without going down the obvious speculation from that point, but that would be premature).

Can I ask how this bit about the shared secret was phrased...? (I really am going to have to get the book, but...)