Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Jack White]

Excellent, John. Sane! Thanks.

Jack

[Len Colby]

I am talking about scientific issues. If it is true, for example, that kerosene burns at 820C under optimum conditions, how come the steel beams of the twin towers – whose melting point is supposed to be about 1,480C – would snap through at the same time? (They collapsed in 8.1 and 10 seconds.) What about the third tower – the so-called World Trade Centre Building 7 (or the Salmon Brothers Building) – which collapsed in 6.6 seconds in its own footprint at 5.20pm on 11 September? Why did it so neatly fall to the ground when no aircraft had hit it? The American National Institute of Standards and Technology was instructed to analyse the cause of the destruction of all three buildings. They have not yet reported on WTC 7. Two prominent American professors of mechanical engineering – very definitely not in the "raver" bracket – are now legally challenging the terms of reference of this final report on the grounds that it could be "fraudulent or deceptive".

Journalistically, there were many odd things about 9/11. Initial reports of reporters that they heard "explosions" in the towers – which could well have been the beams cracking – are easy to dismiss. Less so the report that the body of a female air crew member was found in a Manhattan street with her hands bound. OK, so let's claim that was just hearsay reporting at the time, just as the CIA's list of Arab suicide-hijackers, which included three men who were – and still are – very much alive and living in the Middle East, was an initial intelligence error.

But what about the weird letter allegedly written by Mohamed Atta, the Egyptian hijacker-murderer with the spooky face, whose "Islamic" advice to his gruesome comrades – released by the CIA – mystified every Muslim friend I know in the Middle East? Atta mentioned his family – which no Muslim, however ill-taught, would be likely to include in such a prayer. He reminds his comrades-in-murder to say the first Muslim prayer of the day and then goes on to quote from it. But no Muslim would need such a reminder – let alone expect the text of the "Fajr" prayer to be included in Atta's letter.

http://news.independent.co.uk/fisk/article...T00:00:01-00:00

Most if not all his questions have been discussed on other thread on this forum. Never heard about the stewardess before but fail to see why it would be incongruous. Also Judy Wood is not a "prominent" mechanical engineer she failed to get tenure at a so-so university and has been called a raver by other prominent "truthers" including Dr. Steve Jones

Edited August 27, 2007 by Len Colby

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

John, I saw this article, and immediately perceived it as something new and different.

Why? It was WHERE I saw it. It was on the normally left-gatekeeping very anti-9/11 investigation Common Dreams site. This was the first "crack" in the wall of solid anti-investigation articles that I have seen here since looking at the site three years ago.

His riff about the ravers maybe an entry to save face and go back and look at the facts. Not saying there are not "ravers" of course but what in the end does that mean? 1/3 disinformation, 1/3 caused by media neglect, 1/3 caused by kooky individuals....

Again, the significance of this article is not what is said but in who says it and where.

[Ron Ecker]

The idea that there is nothing suspicious here, when the investors won't collect their millions of dollars, is absurd. The non-collection is a smoking gun. So is the fact that these investors have been protected by the government.

But I'm just a "truther" spouting the usual nonsense.

[Paul Rigby]

Again, the significance of this article is not what is said but in who says it and where.

Very true: It also tells us a great deal about the imminence of an attack on Iran.

[Paul Rigby]

Again, the significance of this article is not what is said but in who says it and where.

Very true: It also tells us a great deal about the imminence of an attack on Iran.

Terrible, I left out the essential precursor to that heady moment - the false flag attack that enables it.

Large, liberal-leaning city, just to ensure the non-Repubs are swung behind the long pre-planned assault? West coast, perhaps, just to balance 9/11?

[Mark Stapleton]

The idea that there is nothing suspicious here, when the investors won't collect their millions of dollars, is absurd. The non-collection is a smoking gun. So is the fact that these investors have been protected by the government.

But I'm just a "truther" spouting the usual nonsense.

I would be more inclined to classify you as a rational observer. (sorry if I've outed you, Ron).

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

Again, the significance of this article is not what is said but in who says it and where.

Very true: It also tells us a great deal about the imminence of an attack on Iran.

Terrible, I left out the essential precursor to that heady moment - the false flag attack that enables it.

Large, liberal-leaning city, just to ensure the non-Repubs are swung behind the long pre-planned assault? West coast, perhaps, just to balance 9/11?

---------------

Paul reminds me the words of some wacky conspiracy theorist a few months ago that a false-flag attack would precede a U.S. led Iran attack.

Oh, wait a minute... that was Ziggy Breszinski... it hasn't been mentioned once in four months so I forgot.... is "conspiracy theory" a matter of how frequently something is mentioned in the the NYTimes? Is circualtion a factor?

[Craig Lamson]

The idea that there is nothing suspicious here, when the investors won't collect their millions of dollars, is absurd. The non-collection is a smoking gun. So is the fact that these investors have been protected by the government.

But I'm just a "truther" spouting the usual nonsense.

Someone [who shall be nameless] suggested it was much ado about nothing as the sums were to paltry. Maybe they just thought a few million wasn't worth the effort of missing a golf game....for six years. lol.

The fact that the identity of the investors has been protected by the govenment is a bit 'odd', [shall we say suspicious], but then those of us into the truth seem quite 'odd' to those into the coverup of the lies....

Why not name name Lenkin? Yes the sums ARE paltry in todays world. As to those who have not claimed the money, has it ever passed through the minds of the 'truthers' that those who placed these wagers are in fact the sects of radical Islam who planned and carried out the attacks? Maybe not as it goes against the truther 'worldview'

[Paul Rigby]

Again, the significance of this article is not what is said but in who says it and where.

Very true: It also tells us a great deal about the imminence of an attack on Iran.

Terrible, I left out the essential precursor to that heady moment - the false flag attack that enables it.

Large, liberal-leaning city, just to ensure the non-Repubs are swung behind the long pre-planned assault? West coast, perhaps, just to balance 9/11?

---------------

Paul reminds me the words of some wacky conspiracy theorist a few months ago that a false-flag attack would precede a U.S. led Iran attack.

Oh, wait a minute... that was Ziggy Breszinski... it hasn't been mentioned once in four months so I forgot.... is "conspiracy theory" a matter of how frequently something is mentioned in the the NYTimes? Is circulation a factor?

Tells you something about how dire things have got when we have to keep company with establishment loonies like, er, Ziggy and the Fisk. Are we now "establishment" types? God, what a thought.

[Duane Daman]

Why not name name Lenkin? Yes the sums ARE paltry in todays world. As to those who have not claimed the money, has it ever passed through the minds of the 'truthers' that those who placed these wagers are in fact the sects of radical Islam who planned and carried out the attacks? Maybe not as it goes against the truther 'worldview'

$ 10 to $ 15 million is "paltry in today's world " ?? .. What planet do you live on ?

If the inside traders were "in fact sects of radical Islam" , then why doesn't the US government conduct a proper investigation into this theory and expose these alleged Islam radicals bad guys ? .... Doesn't it seem as if the government knows very well who the inside traders might be and are conducting a cover-up instead of a proper investigation ? ... Maybe not as it goes against the sheeple 'worldview'.

[Craig Lamson]

Why not name name Lenkin? Yes the sums ARE paltry in todays world. As to those who have not claimed the money, has it ever passed through the minds of the 'truthers' that those who placed these wagers are in fact the sects of radical Islam who planned and carried out the attacks? Maybe not as it goes against the truther 'worldview'

$ 10 to $ 15 million is "paltry in today's world " ?? .. What planet do you live on ?

If the inside traders were "in fact sects of radical Islam" , then why doesn't the US government conduct a proper investigation into this theory and expose these alleged Islam radicals bad guys ? .... Doesn't it seem as if the government knows very well who the inside traders might be and are conducting a cover-up instead of a proper investigation ? ... Maybe not as it goes against the sheeple 'worldview'.

Those of us not making blood-money from our Hallibuton stocks find a million a lot......I'm sure if the 'Islamofascists' were the investors we'd have heard about it on Sept. 12. The fact we haven't heard about it and it seems it was never investigated or covered-up tells me it was some rich white Christofascist guys....likely with real good connections with those in power......baaaahh

Even for those of us who produce wealth and not steal it, a million is a tidy sum. But for a supposed market killing on put calls it's chump change. Heck the bonuses for the Wall Street types totaled over 20 BILLION last year. The logic of your theory that some connected and protected high rollers would play this dangerous game for a paltry few million is silly. Oh and since you claim some grand governmental coverup, where is your proof?

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

Sure enough, Cockburn has responded to Fisk in under 24 hours by sicking the pretentious left-gatekeeping counterpunch crowd on him. They are leaping into their tactically knatty tweeds and are racing for the muscle cars they drive ironically to work where they will proceed to write articles about WHAT WERE LISTENING TO THIS WEEK and articles attacking all aspects of the 9/11 truth "movement". Already I can feel upper middle-class eyebrows doing the wave in the redwoods. Perhaps another ironic piece on Bohemian Grove will set the last sociology department atwitter.

http://www.counterpunch.org/garcia08272007.html

[Guest David Guyatt]

Wow a 6 year-old report written less than a month after 9/11, couldn’t you find anything more current? Since then a lot of light has been shed on this matter. It seems the trades weren’t as anomalous as 1st though.

http://www.911myths.com/html/put_options.html

Funny logic some guy at the CIA on 9/11 was the number #2 guy at a bank supposedly linked to these trades 4 years earlier and this supposed to prove what exactly?

http://www.911myths.com/html/the_puts_and_the_cia.html

The thing is Len, is that Ruppert was an asshole. I told him about Krongard because I'd been researching the guy on another matter and then Mike goes and publishes it. Mike was like that - impulsive. After awhile a lot of people who were helping him out with background research (including a very able former banker who is a friend of mine) dropped him.

Anyway.

Bankers Trust is a fine old bank that "does" for the folks at Langley. I have some nice copies of correspondence on their letterhead. Now-you-see-it-now-you-don't-iffy-transactions. Good stuff. And Buzzy's old outfit Alex Brown also has some very interesting connections.

So, it's not - as you like to suggest - a simple case of a nice old banker guy going to the CIA and getting zapped by the conspiracy crowd because of that. It might just as well be a case of a nice old banker guy returning to the CIA. But who knows? Bankers and spookery is more a British thing. Lawyers as spooks is more American. But I guess it's interchangeable. Usually money involved anyway.

Then the actual founding and history of both BT and Alex Brown have even more interesting connections -- if you know what you're looking for that is.

And there really was no hanky panky on the 9/11puts? Is that right?

David

[Len Colby]

Sure enough, Cockburn has responded to Fisk in under 24 hours by sicking the pretentious left-gatekeeping counterpunch crowd on him. They are leaping into their tactically knatty tweeds and are racing for the muscle cars they drive ironically to work where they will proceed to write articles about WHAT WERE LISTENING TO THIS WEEK and articles attacking all aspects of the 9/11 truth "movement". Already I can feel upper middle-class eyebrows doing the wave in the redwoods. Perhaps another ironic piece on Bohemian Grove will set the last sociology department atwitter.

http://www.counterpunch.org/garcia08272007.html

An excellent response misinformed Mr. Fisk. Other than Ad Homs can you find any fault with what Garcia wrote?