Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Evan Burton]

Received a reply about the cordite:

As far as I know, Evan, cordite was only ever used by the British Commonwealth and Empire. Its use stopped at some point after WW2, in the case of small arms probably in the 1950s when the NATO 7.62mm and 9mm calibres were adopted. I'm not sure about the larger calibres.

Tony Williams

Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

----- Original Message -----

From: "Evan Burton" <xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

To: <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 6:10 AM

Subject: Question about cordite

> Hi!

>

> Wondering if you might be able to answer some quick questions:

>

> Is cordite still in use as a propellant today? If so, is the US one of those countries using it?

>

> Many thanks for your time.

>

>

>

> Evan Burton

> Australia

Tony Williams is an expert on military weapons, and runs the Military gun and ammunition website.

So it seems they didn't smell cordite.

Such a pity that facts stand in the way of such grandiose conspiracy theories...

[Len Colby]

We are still looking for the source of the tritium found in the rubble of the WTC. Here may be a clue or two.

http://www.venusproject.com/911/WTC_911Bumb_Plan.html

http://forum.physorg.com/911-WTC---Evidenc...osion_4418.html

Bests,

John McCarthy

The 1st site doesn’t even make the claim that tritium was found at GZ let alone provide any evidence. “MMC” on the 2nd only provided one source, an abstract for a paper for that claim, but selectively quoted it.

Traces of tritiated water (HTO) were detected at the World Trade Center (WTC) ground zero after the 9/11/01 terrorist attack. A water sample from the WTC sewer, collected on 9/13/01, contained 0.164{+-} 0.074 (2{sigma}) nCi/L of HTO. A split water sample, collected on 9/21/01 from the basement of WTC Building 6, contained 3.53{+-} 0.17 and 2.83{+-} 0.15 nCi/L, respectively. These results are well below the levels of concern to human exposure. Several water and vegetation samples were analyzed from sites outside ground zero, located in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, and the Kensico and Croton Reservoirs. No HTO above the background was found in those samples. Tritium radioluminescent (RL) devices were investigated as possible sources of the traces of tritium at ground zero. It was determined that the two Boeing 767 aircraft that hit the Twin Towers contained a combined 34 Ci of tritium at the time of impact in their emergency exit signs. There is also evidence that many weapons from law enforcement were present and destroyed at WTC. Such weaponry contains by design tritium sights. The fate and removal of tritium from ground zero were investigated, taking into consideration tritium chemistry and water flow originating from the fire fighting, rain, as well as leaks from the Hudson River and broken mains. A box model was developed to describe the above scenario. The model is consistent with instantaneous oxidation of the airplane tritium in the jet-fuel explosion, deposition of a small fraction of HTO at ground zero, and water-flow controlled removal of HTO from the debris. The model also suggests that tritium from the weapons would be released and oxidized to HTO at a much slower rate in the lingering fires at ground zero.

http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=15002340

I guess clicking and reading the only link provided by either of his sources as evidence of his contention is a little bit too much research for John.

The paper itself also mentioned watches as possible sources of tritium (exit signs in the WTC itself we dismissed)

“Tritium in timing devices is used as GTLS or polymer paint. NRC regulations limit tritium content per timepiece to 25 mCi for paint (27) and 200 mCi for GTLS (28).” (pg 9)

“Considering that there were 2823 victims in the attack, tritium watches could have been another source of tritium. Tritium paint watches were less likely, since they contain much less tritium and are generally no longer manufactured in modern watches (Section 4). However, GTLS-type watches, although expensive, could have been worn by more affluent public of Lower Manhattan. In addition, the military-style watches may have been worn by the emergency/law enforcement personnel who perished. It would take 40 GTLS watches, 25 mCi each, to give 1 Ci of tritium activity.” (pg 12)

The authors referred to the “release of tritium” as “small” (pg. 10)

and determines that

“The release scenario at the WTC from the airplanes is 9 consistent with this accident. However, the Twin Towers collapsed before their complete burning, so the fraction of tritium deposited at the WTC might be larger. (pgs 10 - 11)”

http://www.llnl.gov/tid/lof/documents/pdf/241096.pdf

I guess reading the actual report or accurarely quote the abstract were a little too much for “MMC” John’s source.

While I am far from convinced nuclear devices were used in 911, I am also not dismissing totally the idea either....one interesting contribution is here:

http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/military.htm

Peter John already provided a link to that article, try and pay attention

The one version I do dismiss is the 'official' version of events....all others are on the table to various degrees.

Yeah why accept the version that has the most evidence supporting it?

CBS's 60 Minutes is reporting is has obtained the government's secret no-fly list used to screen airline passengers for possible terrorist suspects. The list contains 44,000 entries, including ...14 of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers are still on the no-fly list.

I find it rather 'odd' that 14 of the alleged hijackers are STILL listed on the US Govt. 'no fly' list of 44,000+ names [recently obtained by CBS]!....the USG obviously is NOT sure they are dead....an amazing admission in itself!.....so who was flying those planes into buildings and fields....? Also interesting to note that Evo Morales - a highly moral person never having committed any crimes in or out of the USA, and a duely elected head of state [more than our President can say!] is on this list.

You have yet to produce any evidence that this is true.

[Len Colby]

you will have to deal with vermiculite which has been found in the WTC pit and is used in nuclear weapons.

Can you cite evidence that vermiculite is used in nukes and that it was found in higher that expected levels at GZ? It is used in paint, plaster and fireproofing among other applications

just because google can't find something doesn't mean you can take it to the bank.

But it makes it high unlikely to be true. Provide evidence other that your say so that alpha particles were detected

You read like a kindergartner running around the playground with your "bullxxxx" remarks. Shame on you, boy

Didn't know you were such a prude. In Cohen v. Califonia one of the Supreme Court justices opimed that use of obsenity is covered by the 1st ammendment because less offensive language might not full express the users sentiments.

In that case from the time of the Vietnam War Cohen had been arrested for wearing a jacket into a courthouse with."xxxx the Draft" written on the back. Obviously "to heck with the draft" would not have expressed Cohen outrage. Similalrly few words other than bullxxxx would have been appropriate in respose to your last post.

[Evan Burton]

Aren't alpha particles generated by smoke detectors?

I was right; I thought they were used in smoke alarms.

http://www.sdc.gc.ca/asp/gateway.asp?hr=/e...html&hs=fzp

I figure there would have been a lot of those in the WTC. Anyone know?

[John J. McCarthy]

Just like traces of deutreum and tritium. nit nit that both are 'tamps' for nukes, enhancing their power. Most times they are oblliterted, non tracable, but for some strange phenom, like most nuke explosions, the varying degrees of effectively using the max of 25% is seldom achieved. Not to worry, boys, the reports are forthcoming. Do your homework, now!

Bests,

John McCarthy

[Brian Smith]

Government Changes WTC Collapse Story Again?

Acid Rain Brought Down the Towers?

9/11 Blogger | October 6 2006

Note: This article is in fact over 2 years old, since it has already been posted it will still be listed, sorry for the confusion.

The "Deep Mystery" of Melted Steel - wpi.edu

There is no indication that any of the fires in the World Trade Center buildings were hot enough to melt the steel framework. Jonathan Barnett, professor of fire protection engineering, has repeatedly reminded the public that steel--which has a melting point of 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit--may weaken and bend, but does not melt during an ordinary office fire. Yet metallurgical studies on WTC steel brought back to WPI reveal that a novel phenomenon--called a eutectic reaction--occurred at the surface, causing intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese.

Materials science professors Ronald R. Biederman and Richard D. Sisson Jr. confirmed the presence of eutectic formations by examining steel samples under optical and scanning electron microscopes. A preliminary report was published in JOM, the journal of the Minerals, Metals & Materials Society. A more detailed analysis comprises Appendix C of the FEMA report. The New York Times called these findings "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation." The significance of the work on a sample from Building 7 and a structural column from one of the twin towers becomes apparent only when one sees these heavy chunks of damaged metal.

A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.

A eutectic compound is a mixture of two or more substances that melts at the lowest temperature of any mixture of its components. Blacksmiths took advantage of this property by welding over fires of sulfur-rich charcoal, which lowers the melting point of iron. In the World Trade Center fire, the presence of oxygen, sulfur and heat caused iron oxide and iron sulfide to form at the surface of structural steel members. This liquid slag corroded through intergranular channels into the body of the metal, causing severe erosion and a loss of structural integrity.

"The important questions," says Biederman, "are how much sulfur do you need, and where did it come from? The answer could be as simple--and this is scary- as acid rain."

(more after the jump..)

Have environmental pollutants increased the potential for eutectic reactions? "We may have just the inherent conditions in the atmosphere so that a lot of water on a burning building will form sulfuric acid, hydrogen sulfide or hydroxides, and start the eutectic process as the steel heats up," Biederman says. He notes that the sulfur could also have come from contents of the burning buildings, such as rubber or plastics. Another possible culprit is ocean salts, such as sodium sulfate, which is known to catalyze sulfidation reactions on turbine blades of jet engines. "All of these things have to be explored," he says.

From a building-safety point of view, the critical question is: Did the eutectic mixture form before the buildings collapsed, or later, as the remains smoldered on the ground. "We have no idea," admits Sisson. "To answer that, we would need to recreate those fires in the FPE labs, and burn fresh steel of known composition for the right time period, with the right environment." He hopes to have the opportunity to collaborate on thermodynamically controlled studies, and to observe the effects of adding sulfur, copper and other elements. The most important lesson, Sisson and Biederman stress, is that fail-safe sprinkler systems are essential to prevent steel from reaching even 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, because phase changes at the 1,300-degree mark compromise a structure's load-bearing capacity.

The FEMA report calls for further metallurgic investigations, and Barnett, Biederman and Sisson hope that WPI will obtain NIST funding and access to more samples. They are continuing their microscopic studies on the samples prepared by graduate student Jeremy Bernier and Marco Fontecchio, the 2001–02 Helen E. Stoddard Materials Science and Engineering Fellow. (Next year's Stoddard Fellow, Erin Sullivan, will take up this work as part of her graduate studies.) Publication of their results may clear up some mysteries that have confounded the scientific community.

Acid rain? How did acid rain get on the 47 central steel collums comprising the core? Thermate leaves sulfur traces behind too. And that molten liquid pouring out of the south tower right before it's collapse sure looks like ignited thermite/thermate to me.

[John J. McCarthy]

rense.com

Physicist's Letter On

911 PHYSICS To

Rocky Mountain News

10-3-6

The following letter was sent by Eric Harrington, a physicist who lives in Ojai, CA, to Vincent Carroll at the Rocky Mountain News...

Dear Mr. Carrol,

I am responding to your article slandering the legitimate questions posed by numerous scientists, engineers, pilots, even international (often Republican) politicians regarding the flaws in the "official account" of 9/11.

"Let us dip our toe again into" a couple of the bogus rebuffs posed by the "experts" at Popular Mechanics.

Pop Mech- "As the fires blazed and the temperatures rose within the buildings, NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) believes, the remaining core columns (those not severed by the planes during impact) softened and buckled, transferring most of the load to the building's outer structural columns. The floors . . . began to sag from the heat, pulling those columns inward and adding to the burden on the outer columns."

Debunking: For anyone who as actually watched the WTC video's carefully, you will note that the south tower was struck near the corner, almost insuring it sustained NO damage to the central core columns. It also had by far the largest fireball produced, indicating a substantially larger portion of the fuel was burned in the initial impact and for the most part outside the building. Oddly, it was the south tower which fell first after burning for only 55 minutes, and at a point when the fires had greatly diminished.

In addition, as given by Kevin Ryan who was responsible for the thermal testing of the WTC Steel when it was certified, the samples tested for the WTC were certified to withstand a temperature of 2,000 deg for 6 hours without failing their rated load characteristics. And that is without insulation. The WTC beams were insulated. Jet fuel burns at only 1200-1300 degrees with an ideal oxygen mixture, something not indicated by the black smoke that issued from the fires. There was nothing contained within the buildings that could have raised this figure, and those that use the example of ancient furnaces that tempered steel as a argument, again, do not understand the principles involved. I suggest that if you want the truth, and wish to actually act like a journalist for a change, you broach this subject with a real expert, Mr. Ryan. I can put you in touch with him upon request.

But more important than the issue of the likelihood of the steel failure, is the FACT (not conjecture) that ALL THREE buildings collapsed into their own footprint at FREEFALL SPEED (i.e. the unimpeded acceleration of gravity). That means, drop a rock off the roof, at the moment of collapse, and the roof would hit the ground at the same time as the rock. This implies, (regardless of what happened at the fire zone) that the when the top section of the building began to fall it managed to plow through 70-80 odd floors of pristine and undamaged steel -- literally thousands of huge beams and concrete pads-- with absolutely NO RESISTANCE (i.e.. slowing of the rate of fall) WHATSOEVER. And this sir, is physically impossible and verging on the absurd, and I (a physicist), and anyone with a shred of knowledge of engineering, physics, or just plain common sense can understand that.

And there is a $1,000,000.00 cash challenge (to date unanswered) to anyone that can suggest a legitimate solution to this nagging little problem. And lastly, if the official pancake theory is correct, it lends no explanation whatsoever for why the central core of 47 HUGE beams, all connected together at numerous levels, would not be left standing like a spire as the floor connectors failed and the floors pancaked symmetrically around them. The less resistance to this collapse scenario exhibited by the building's design, the more likely the central core would remain virtually untouched. It is a paradox.

Watch the videos. Study the evidence. Talk to the experts and the scientists who simply can no longer tolerate an explanation so at odds with the physical evidence and the physical principles of the universe. And these experts I refer to are ready and willing to debate these issues with ANYONE you and your ilk choose, ANYTIME and ANYWHERE, as long as it can be videotaped for posterity.

I will not even get into the dozens of other patently absurd explanations that Popular Mechanics and other government shills and publicity hacks have posed to make the painfully obvious physical evidence at both the WTC and Pentagon fit the official fairy tale, while suppressing the numerous eyewitness accounts that disagree, but suffice to say that when "journalists" (and I use that term EXTREMELY loosely with you), continue to disparage those who simply demand the truth, and not propaganda; who examine the evidence with open minds and simply request that the investigation of this murder of 3,000 innocents be pursued with the same objectivity and forensic vigor that a common mugging would be given; they only contribute to the ignorance pervasive and growing in this country, reduce the once noble journalistic trade to nothing more than corporate propaganda machines, and deface the sacrifice of the 3000 who were murdered.

As for your contemptuous tone of which I have tried to mimic in this reply, to quote Shakespeare, "Me thinks thou dost protest too much."

Sincerely,

Eric Harrington

Ojai, Ca

http://www.vt911.org/collapse.htm

Bests,

John McCarthy

[Len Colby]

Do your homework, now!

ROTFLMHO – John I really didn’t think you had a sense of humor but your ironic self-depreciating joke really made laugh!!!!

That’s really funny you telling others to do their homework! That was really rich, biggest laugh I’ve had on this forum in weeks. I had to wipe the tears from my eyes.

Physicist's Letter On

911 PHYSICS To

Rocky Mountain News 10-3-6

John you already posted that letter from the misinformed self proclaimed physicist, are you starting to loose it?

Government Changes WTC Collapse Story Again?

Acid Rain Brought Down the Towers?

Oh yeah the sulfer Dr. Sisson himself mentioned a few possible sources the gypsum wallboard that was used as fireproofing/partitions in the cores and partitions in some offices, heating oil in addition to acid rain / pollution. Much of the steel was buried for weeks in the rubble pile in a “chemical stew” that included a sum of what once had been the WTC as well as gallons of water and fire repression products.

No one is saying the euletic reation brought down the towers the exposure could have been post collapse.

Aren't alpha particles generated by smoke detectors?

I was right; I thought they were used in smoke alarms.

http://www.sdc.gc.ca/asp/gateway.asp?hr=/e...html&hs=fzp

I figure there would have been a lot of those in the WTC. Anyone know?

“The (WTC) complex has more than 3,000 smoke detectors”

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:4ZcD6n...ions/tr-076.pdf

“With the collapse of the buildings came the inevitable emission of rubble, shrapnel, and an immense cloud of dust, chemicals, and smoke that blanketed all of Manhattan. Within the dust cloud was …americium 241 from the smoke detectors… Dr. Marjorie Clarke states that the results of 9/11 were “equivalent to dozens of asbestos factories, incinerators, and crematoria-as well as a volcano.” ”

http://www.mesotheliomasos.com/jobsitesWTCasbestos.php

[Evan Burton]

Thanks for that Len.

So who is the "Eric Harrington"?

I notice several people tearing his letter to bits.

[Jack White]

A medical doctor, concerned by the medical problems of

persons exposed to 911 Ground Zero debris and particulate,

presents a thorough scientific analysis of causes.

http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/06/09/25/ward.htm

Jack

[Evan Burton]

Why is it that whenever you disprove so-called "facts" brought forth by these CTists, they never go back to try and defend them? Instead, they always move onto another so-called "fact" which proves equally spurious.

Equally strange is how the CTists are always caught out promoting disinformation and lies, yet they are the ones who accuse others of doing it.

Funny old world, eh?

[Steve Ulman]

A medical doctor, concerned by the medical problems of

persons exposed to 911 Ground Zero debris and particulate,

presents a thorough scientific analysis of causes.

http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/06/09/25/ward.htm

Jack

His BIO:

Ed Ward, aka: T. R. Ewar

MD. Medical Doctorate, 20 years of General Practice retired.

MT. Medical Technology Bachelor of Science, Associate of Science.

What are his specific qualifications to make the claims in is article? (most of which is simply a rehash of info on other "Truth" sites). When did he practice? Where? Where did he get is education?What did he specialize in, if anything?

BY the way - be VERY careful when clicking on any of the links in Mr. Ward's article. Many are broken and when one lead to a porn site I stopped looking for fear of what else I might find.

Edited October 8, 2006 by Steve Ulman

[Steve Ulman]

Deleted duplicate post.

Edited October 8, 2006 by Steve Ulman

[Steve Ulman]

Deleted duplicate post.

rense.com

Physicist's Letter On

911 PHYSICS To

Rocky Mountain News

10-3-6

The following letter was sent by Eric Harrington, a physicist who lives in Ojai, CA, to Vincent Carroll at the Rocky Mountain News...

Dear Mr. Carrol,

[snip]

In addition, as given by Kevin Ryan who was responsible for the thermal testing of the WTC Steel when it was certified, the samples tested for the WTC were certified to withstand a temperature of 2,000 deg for 6 hours without failing their rated load characteristics. And that is without insulation. The WTC beams were insulated. Jet fuel burns at only 1200-1300 degrees with an ideal oxygen mixture, something not indicated by the black smoke that issued from the fires. There was nothing contained within the buildings that could have raised this figure, and those that use the example of ancient furnaces that tempered steel as a argument, again, do not understand the principles involved. I suggest that if you want the truth, and wish to actually act like a journalist for a change, you broach this subject with a real expert, Mr. Ryan. I can put you in touch with him upon request.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Eric Harrington

Ojai, Ca

http://www.vt911.org/collapse.htm

Bests,

John McCarthy

Sorry I just can’t resist. A pet peeve.

Anyone who has done any research knows that Kevin Ryan’s statements are to be ignored. Even Mr. Ryan acknowledges that he has no first hand knowledge of how or what UL’s involvement was in the WTC Steel. He is a water quality expert who once worked for a subsidiary of UL and fraudulently used his UL connection to try to bolster his claims regarding the collapse of the WTC Towers .

Mr. Harrington is at best, very ignorant, or at worst, intellectually dishonest.

Anyone who uses Kevin Ryan as a source should be ignored.

Edited October 8, 2006 by Steve Ulman

[Len Colby]

Thanks for that Len.

So who is the "Eric Harrington"?

I notice several people tearing his letter to bits.

I don't know, although there is an Eric J. Harrington who lives in Ojai

http://preview.ussearch.com/preview/newsea...range&TID=0

I could not find any evidence of a physicist by that name (with or without the middle initial) other than the letter or people referencing it.

http://www.google.com.br/search?sourceid=n...cist+OR+physics

http://www.google.com.br/search?hl=pt-BR&a...quisar&meta=

This is subjective but the letter doesn't sound like something written by a physicist to me. Scientists tend to be very precise people and he made a number of gross errors such as saying Ryan tested the steel at WTC, a claim never made by the former UL water tester or claiming flight 175 didn't hit the core. Nothing in the letter indicates scientific training it is just a regurgitation of the usual "inside jobber" claims

Also interesting in this regard is http://www.nyctv.com/Survey_Finds_Radioact...ls_911_Dump.htm

In typically dishonest CT style the author didn't tell his (or her) readers the whole story. from the only working link provided by the author

"Investigators found small pieces of rusted metal — possibly remnants of industrial equipment — that had presumably been dumped in the park before it was taken over from the city by the National Park Service in 1972 http://www.nysun.com/article/40174

The park is huge site 2200 acres. I'm not even sure were talking about the same site according to Sun article the park was taken over by the Feds in 1972, the NYC dump only closed in March 2001 and was reopened after 9/11 it is now being set up to be a city run park.

http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_park/f...kills_park.html

The truth is both authors confused Fresh Kills Park with Great Kills Park which is a functioning federally run park on the other side of the island. The park is huge site 2200 acres. I'm not even sure were talking about the same site according to Sun article the park was taken over by the Feds in 1972, the NYC dump only closed in March 2001 and was reopened after 9/11 it is now being set up to be a city run park.

http://www.silive.com/printer/printer.ssf?....xml&coll=1

http://newyorkcity2005.web.infoseek.co.jp/...staten-map.html

Also as the inside jobbers never fail to bring up the debris was removed from FRESH Kills long ago

...and a summary of the recent SF lecture by authors of 911 and the American Empire here:

http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=16472

it is very, VERY good!...bypass leader on audio of about two minutes and you'll hear some great speeches and material! Some of the best general material, and specifics too....Suggest you record this one...

and this one on the NORAD tapes lies http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=15892

who may be behind all this xxxx here: http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=16009

and the testimory of first responders here: http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=16240

Uh, Peter none of those links seems to be working.

NORAD – No relevant to this topic.

1st responders testimony – Only one 1st responder who was at the trade center at the time of the collapses, Patricia Ormovic (sp) said after 911 that she believed explosives were set of in the WTC. She thought they were set off in WTC concurrent with the collapse of the South Tower, she also claims to have seen a airplane explode over NJ a few minutes later. As with the story about the landfillthe 911 revisionists have taken the 1st responders quotes out of context.

http://www.debunking911.com/quotes.htm

http://www.debunking911.com/explosions.htm

http://www.911myths.com/html/quote_abuse.html

The only other 1st responder who says he thinks explosives were used is AUXILLIARY firefighter Paul Isaac Jr., who according to his own version of events was still several blocks away when the second tower collapsed.

Ditto Steve's comments about Ryan and Dr. Ward.

Len