Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Len Colby]

Thanks for that Len.

So who is the "Eric Harrington"?

I notice several people tearing his letter to bits.

I don't know, although there is an Eric J. Harrington who lives in Ojai

http://preview.ussearch.com/preview/newsea...range&TID=0

I could not find any evidence of a physicist by that name (with or without the middle initial) other than the letter or people referencing it.

http://www.google.com.br/search?sourceid=n...cist+OR+physics

http://www.google.com.br/search?hl=pt-BR&a...quisar&meta=

This is subjective but the letter doesn't sound like something written by a physicist to me. Scientists tend to be very precise people and he made a number of gross errors such as saying Ryan tested the steel at WTC, a claim never made by the former UL water tester or claiming flight 175 didn't hit the core. Nothing in the letter indicates scientific training it is just a regurgitation of the usual "inside jobber" claims

Also interesting in this regard is http://www.nyctv.com/Survey_Finds_Radioact...ls_911_Dump.htm

In typically dishonest "inside jobber" style the author didn't tell his (or her) readers the whole story. from the only working link provided by the author

"Investigators found small pieces of rusted metal — possibly remnants of industrial equipment — that had presumably been dumped in the park before it was taken over from the city by the National Park Service in 1972 http://www.nysun.com/article/40174

The park is huge site 2200 acres. I'm not even sure were talking about the same site according to Sun article the park was taken over by the Feds in 1972, the NYC dump only closed in March 2001 and was reopened after 9/11 it is now being set up to be a city run park.

http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_park/f...kills_park.html

The truth is both authors confused Fresh Kills Park with Great Kills Park which is a functioning federally run park on the other side of the island.

http://www.silive.com/printer/printer.ssf?....xml&coll=1

http://newyorkcity2005.web.infoseek.co.jp/...staten-map.html

Also as the inside jobbers never fail to bring up the debris was removed from FRESH Kills long ago

...and a summary of the recent SF lecture by authors of 911 and the American Empire here:

http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=16472

it is very, VERY good!...bypass leader on audio of about two minutes and you'll hear some great speeches and material! Some of the best general material, and specifics too....Suggest you record this one...

and this one on the NORAD tapes lies http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=15892

who may be behind all this xxxx here: http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=16009

and the testimory of first responders here: http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=16240

Uh, Peter none of those links seems to be working.

NORAD – No relevant to this topic.

1st responders testimony – Only one 1st responder who was at the trade center at the time of the collapses, Patricia Ormovic (sp) said after 911 that she believed explosives were set of in the WTC. She thought they were set off in 6 WTC concurrent with the collapse of the South Tower, she also claims to have seen a airplane explode over NJ a few minutes later. As with the story about the landfillthe 911 revisionists have taken the 1st responders quotes out of context.

http://www.debunking911.com/quotes.htm

http://www.debunking911.com/explosions.htm

http://www.911myths.com/html/quote_abuse.html

AFAIK the only other 1st responder who says he thinks explosives were used is AUXILLIARY firefighter Paul Isaac Jr., who according to his own version of events was still several blocks away when the second tower collapsed. http://smithmag.net/2006/08/10/korey-rowe-...e-cannon-of-911

Ditto Steve's comments about Ryan, Harrington and Dr. Ward

Len

Edited October 8, 2006 by Len Colby

[John J. McCarthy]

The Reality of Our Problem.

By invading Iraq, for all the stated reasons, this administration has pissed off

what percentage of the 25 million Iraqi?

By shoving our brand of 'democracy' down their throats, with all the misery and

pain associated with three and one half years of occupation, how many of those

25 millon have we appeased?

140,000 Americans, backed by all the high tech machinery available on this

planet, and above it, are a daily reminder that the continued resistance to the

US presence in Iraq is just and in good cause in following the dictates of the

Koran. High Tech cannot penetrate the Koran.

The guerrilla movement in Iraq will continue with the support of the majority of

those 25,000,000 citizens of what is left of the Cradle of Civilization.

Our leaders are well to remember that after suffering 58,000 deaths and

hundreds of thousands wounded in Vietnam in the face of 2,000,000 Vietnamese

deaths, the leadership of North Vietnam stated they were prepared to sacrifice

10,000,000 more to drive out the invaders. What makes them think that the

resistence in Iraq is any less sincere?

The surrounding Arab Nations containing an additional 50,000,000 Muslims will

provide what ever support is necessary to prevent a successful occupation of

Iraq by the US.

Someone obviously didn't do their homework before creating an aggressor nation

in violation of the Nuremberg Laws. It is only just and right that we should,

as a nation, pay for these crimes against peace and humanity.

Let us not forget that 911 was the beginning of the lies that led us to wage

wars. This unfounded, illegal cause will fail.

By exposing 911 we tear at the erroneous foundation and the lies of all who

voted for the Patriot Act and War Powers Act as instruments of a rogue nation

bent on preemptive war for the latest version of "lebens raum" and the eternal

war on 'terror', created by our aggressive, arrogant foreign policy.

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id807.html

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id472.html

Therein lies the transparent focus for the refusal to acknowledge the treachery of 911,

Bests,

John McCarthy

[Jack White]

Witnesses reporting explosions in WTC bldgs:

Witnesses to the Towers' Explosions

For years, researchers of the 9/11 attack have built a case for the controlled demolition of the Twin Towers primarily on the basis of one body of evidence: the scores of photographs and videos of the Towers coming down. Whereas authorities were unable to prevent the circulation of this visual evidence, they successfully suppressed the largest body of eyewitness evidence for nearly four years. That body is a collection of hundreds of "oral histories" 503 firefighters, paramedics, and emergency medical technicians, many of whom witnessed some aspect of the total destruction of the Twin Towers.

The vast majority of these accounts remained suppressed by the city until the New York Times won a Freedom of Information lawsuit against the City of New York in 2005, and announced the release of the records on August 8, 2005. The newspaper published the accounts in the form of PDF documents. 1  

A perusal of some excerpts of these accounts containing recollections of the sights, sounds, and immediate observations of the destruction of the Twin Towers suggests the reason the city fought to keep them suppressed: the witnesses consistently describe loud bangs at the onsets of the events, and explosive features characteristic of controlled demolition.

Rich Banaciski -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]

... and then I just remember there was just an explosion. It seemed like on television they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.

Brian Becker -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 28]

The collapse hadn't begun, but it was not a fire any more up there. It was like -- it was like that -- like smoke explosion on a tremendous scale going on up there.

Greg Brady -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.) [battalion 6]

We were standing underneath and Captain Stone was speaking again. We heard -- I heard 3 loud explosions. I look up and the north tower is coming down now, 1 World Trade Center.

Timothy Burke -- Firefigter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 202]

But it seemed like I was going oh, my god, there is a secondary device because the way the building popped. I thought it was an explosion.

Ed Cachia -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 53]

we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.

Frank Campagna -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 11]

You see three explosions and then the whole thing coming down.

Craig Carlsen -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 8]

... you just heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions. At the time I didn't realize what it was.

Jason Charles -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)

... and then I heard an explosion from up, from up above, and I froze and I was like, oh, s___, I'm dead because I thought the debris was going to hit me in the head and that was it.

...

I look over my shoulder and I says, oh, s___, and then I turned around and looked up and that's when I saw the tower coming down.

Frank Cruthers -- Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Citywide Tour Commander]

.. there was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse.

Kevin Darnowski -- Paramedic (E.M.S.)

I heard three explosions, and then we heard like groaning and grinding, and tower two started to come down.

Dominick Derubbio -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Division 8]

It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion ...

Karin Deshore -- Captain (E.M.S.)

Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode.

Brian Dixon -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.)

... the lowest floor of fire in the south tower actually looked like someone had planted explosives around it because the whole bottom I could see -- I could see two sides of it and the other side -- it just looked like that floor blew out. I looked up and you could actually see everything blew out on the one floor. I thought, geez, this looks like an explosion up there, it blew out.

Michael Donovan -- Captain (F.D.N.Y.)

I thought there had been an explosion or a bomb that they had blown up there.

James Drury -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.)

I should say that people in the street and myself included thought that the roar was so loud that the explosive - bombs were going off inside the building.

Thomas Fitzpatrick -- Deputy Commissioner for Administration (F.D.N.Y.)

Some people thought it was an explosion. I don't think I remember that. I remember seeing it, it looked like sparkling around one specific layer of the building.

...

My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV.

Gary Gates -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)

So the explosion, what I realized later, had to be the start of the collapse. It was the way the building appeared to blowout from both sides. I'm looking at the face of it, and all we see is the two sides of the building just blowing out and coming apart like this, as I said, like the top of a volcano.

Kevin Gorman -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]

... I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes.

Gregg Hansson -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)

Then a large explosion took place. In my estimation that was the tower coming down, but at that time I did not know what that was. I thought some type of bomb had gone off.

Timothy Julian -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 118]

You know, and I just heard like an explosion and then cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down.

John Malley -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]

I felt the rumbling, and then I felt the force coming at me. I was like, what the hell is that? In my mind it was a bomb going off.

James McKinley -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)

After that I heard this huge explosion, I thought it was a boiler exploding or something. Next thing you know this huge cloud of smoke is coming at us, so we're running.

Joseph Meola -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 91]

As we are looking up at the building, what I saw was, it looked like the building was blowing out on all four sides. We actually heard the pops. Didn't realize it was the falling -- you know, you heard the pops of the building. You thought it was just blowing out.

Kevin Murray -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 18]

When the tower started -- there was a big explosion that I heard and someone screamed that it was coming down and I looked away and I saw all the windows domino

Janice Olszewski -- Captain (E.M.S.)

I thought it was an explosion or a secondary device, a bomb, the jet -- plane exploding, whatever.

Daniel Rivera -- Paramedic (E.M.S.) [battalion 31]

At first I thought it was -- do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear "Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop"? That's exactly what -- because I thought it was that.

Angel Rivera -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)

That's when hell came down. It was like a huge, enormous explosion. I still can hear it. Everything shook.

Kennith Rogers -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)

I figured it was a bomb, because it looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. I was there in '93.

Patrick Scaringello -- Lieutenant (E.M.S.)

I started to treat patients on my own when I heard the explosion from up above.

Mark Steffens -- Division Chief (E.M.S.)

Then there was another it sounded like an explosion and heavy white powder ...

John Sudnik -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.)

Then we heard a loud explosion or what sounded like a loud explosion and looked up and I saw tower two start coming down. Crazy.

Jay Swithers -- Captain (E.M.S.)

I took a quick glance at the building and while I didn't see it falling, I saw a large section of it blasting out, which led me to believe it was just an explosion. I thought it was a secondary device, but I knew that we had to go.

David Timothy -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)

The next thing I knew, you started hearing more explosions. I guess this is when the second tower started coming down.

Albert Turi -- Deputy Assistant Chief (F.D.N.Y.)

And as my eyes traveled up the building, and I was looking at the south tower, somewhere about halfway up, my initial reaction was there was a secondary explosion, and the entire floor area, a ring right around the building blew out.

Thomas Turilli -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)

... it almost actually that day sounded like bombs going off, like boom, boom, boom, like seven or eight, and then just a huge wind gust just came.

Stephen Viola -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)

... that's when the south tower collapsed, and it sounded like a bunch of explosions.

William Wall -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 47]

At that time, we heard an explosion. We looked up and the building was coming down right on top of us ...

[John J. McCarthy]

Special Reports

> The real �state of denial�: 9/11 red herrings as bipartisan

> election-year volleyball

> By Larry Chin

> Online Journal Associate Editor

>

> Oct 6, 2006, 01:17

>

>

> With US mid-term elections one month away, it is not surprising to find

> Washington�s elite criminal factions (neocon and neoliberal) engaged in

> a new game of political chicken over 9/11 red herrings. The appearance

> of bickering hides the fact that operatives of both factions are lying.

> Both sides are cynically continuing the massive bipartisan cover-up of

> 9/11 and the �war on terrorism."

>

> Undeniable fact: all of Washington �knew� about 9/11

>

> It is an amply documented fact -- no news whatsoever -- that the Bush

> administration had absolute foreknowledge of 9/11, and deliberately

> ignored warnings received within the US and from officials and

> intelligence agencies outside the US.

>

> As written by Michel Chossudovsky, �the foreknowledge issue itself is a

> red herring, a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in

> order to divert attention from the original issue . . . Of course the

> Bush administration knew." Of course Washington �knew� about its own

> false flag operation. Of course Washington �knew� about using its own

> covert intelligence network. Of course Washington �knows� that 9/11 was

> an intelligence �success," not an intelligence �failure."

>

> The media�s spotlight on �foreknowledge� and �lapses� serve to distract

> public attention from the deliberate cover-up of these facts:

> 1. 9/11 and the �war on terrorism� was and is a long-planned US

> operation carried out and sponsored by Washington consensus; official

> US geostrategic policy, carried out by the Bush administration, with

> unanimous bipartisan involvement from the US Congress, and with

> support from Wall Street.

>

> 2. �Islamic terrorism," including Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, is a

> creation of Anglo-American military intelligence. These networks have

> functioned in this role for the past two decades, and continue to carry

> out this role today.

>

> 3. Al-Qaeda is an apparatus that is supported by Pakistan�s ISI, which

> is itself is connected to the CIA.

>

> 4. Pakistan�s ISI chief, General Mahmoud Ahmad, who wired funds for

> the 9/11 operation to alleged 9/11 ringleader Mohammed Atta, met and

> dined with members of the Bush administration, the CIA (George Tenet),

> and key members of the US Congress, Republicans as well as Democrats.

> In other words, Washington in its entirety is implicated in 9/11.

>

> And this is just the bare tip of the iceberg of evidence.

>

> Michel Chossudovsky�s America�s �War on Terrorism� and Michael C.

> Ruppert�s Crossing the Rubicon: The Decline of the American Empire At

> The End of The Age Of Oil exhaustively detail why 9/11 happened, how

> the Bush administration carried it out, who has benefited, and what has

> happened to the world since. The case material contained in these two

> books alone, and at their related web sites (Center for Research on

> Globalization and From The Wilderness), leave no doubt that Washington

> is engaged in a massive and ever-more sophisticated cover-up, designed

> to smash remaining criminal evidence, destroy investigations and

> criticism, selectively eradicate history, and dispel and manipulate

> public discourse.

>

> Against these undeniable proven facts, the current Washington

> disinformation circus is all the more cynical and contemptible.

>

> Foreknowledge: irrelevance, regurgitated

>

> The new book, State of Denial, written by infamous Washington insider,

> opportunist and disinformation asset Bob Woodward of the Washington

> Post, has set off a new media circus over 9/11 foreknowledge and

> �ignored and missed warnings� on the part of key members of the Bush

> administration. The �Bush incompetence� lie is the centerpiece of the

> neoliberal faction�s �war on terrorism� agenda, the central deception

> favored by the Democrats and �progressives."

>

> The latest �fire storm� merely underscores the long-proven fact that

> the malignant Condoleezza Rice committed perjury about 9/11, and that

> Rice, Donald Rumsfeld and then-Attorney General John Ashcroft knew of

> the coming attacks in the summer of 2001. (CIA Director George Tenet,

> of course, �knew," and has lately done his best to recast himself as

> one of the �good guys.")

>

> In turn, this is sending members of the 9/11 Commission cover-up, such

> as Richard Ben-Veniste and Jamie Gorelick, scrambling to defend their

> own malfeasance with their own set of conflicting lies.

>

> The new stories simply prove what is already known: the consensus is

> engaged in an obvious political cover-up, with players from both neocon

> and neoliberal factions reading from the same script, dancing to the

> same tune, taking turns playing �good cop/bad cop� -- lying every step

> of the way.

>

> Clinton vs. Bush redux

>

> The opportunistic Woodward book comes in the wake of a new attempt by

> the Clinton and Bush camps to reinvent a �rivalry." Clinton�s

> �blistering� TV tirade against the Republicans, and the Bush

> administration�s counterattack adds to the false debate -- the red

> herring -- over who could have �stopped Osama bin Laden."

>

> This is public posturing to fool the American people into perceiving

> one side or the other of being stronger �anti-terrorists" and which

> side is more capable of �making us safe."

>

> In addition to hiding the historical fact that the Bushes and Clintons

> have deep and long-standing criminal ties (taking turns heading

> criminal Washington for decades), this campaign deliberately clouds the

> fact that �Islamic terrorism� is an intelligence apparatus fully

> supported by Washington consensus for over two decades. Both wings of

> the American Empire are intent on expanding the �war on terrorism," and

> making America itself an overt police state.

>

> New level of cover-up of Pakistan-US connection

>

> Bob Woodward is not the only insider with a 9/11 book. Pakistan�s

> Pervez Musharraf has come out with his own book, a cynical manipulation

> accusing former US Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage of

> threatening Pakistan with a �bomb you back into the stone age� threat

> that �forced� Pakistan�s cooperation with the �war on terrorism."

>

> As exposed by Mike Ruppert of From the Wilderness, this bombshell of

> cooked half-truths and lies is a massive deception and sheer political

> smoke and mirrors that provide political cover for �adjusted� American

> Middle East geostrategy, recasting Pakistan (and its CIA-affiliated

> ISI) as a �reluctant� ally of the US, while hanging out Armitage (as

> the bully and war criminal that Washington already knows he is) -- in

> full knowledge that the American public doesn�t know and doesn�t care

> anyway.

>

> The Bush administration is so threatened about this �bombshell book,"

> that the giddy George W. Bush stood at the podium with Musharraf and

> encouraged people to buy the book. Peals of laughter are surely echoing

> through the halls of Langley, and Capitol Hill.

>

> Denial and cover-up by consensus

>

> While the players of one faction or the other tell bald-faced out in

> the open, one brands the other incompetent or inattentive in the �war

> on terrorism," the Washington/Wall Street consensus has been

> unshakeable and ironclad: Lie about 9/11, a fully bipartisan atrocity.

> Cover it up permanently, adding new layers, and limited hangout

> versions to suit political expediency. Continue and strengthen the �war

> on terrorism� in any way that expands Anglo-American geopolitical

> resource interests. Cook the American populace slowly and surely.

>

> As pointed out by Michael Kane of From The Wilderness, �the American

> Republic is long dead, and fascism is no longer creeping in this

> country -- it is solidified and documented as the law of the land."

>

> Both factions of the American elite hold the American populace, and the

> world, in contempt.

> The true �state of denial� is one that fails to recognize this, five

> years and a world war later.

>

> Copyright � 1998-2006 Online Journal

> Email Online Journal Editor

[John J. McCarthy]

Nightmares indeed.

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id416.html

This, of course, after shooting all the messengers of truth.

Bests,

John McCarthy

[Len Colby]

Witnesses reporting explosions in WTC bldgs:

Witnesses to the Towers' Explosions

For years, researchers of the 9/11 attack have built a case for the controlled demolition of the Twin Towers primarily on the basis of one body of evidence: ...

The " 'truth' movement" for all it complaints about the lies and deceptive nature of Bush administration and the "mainstream media", rivals Rove and Co. and surpasses even Fox News in the dishonesty department. The story about the radon found in "Fresh" Kills cited by Peter being a prime example, the manipulation of Pentagon witness quotes pointed out by Evan another, the selective editing of the quote about the ATC's thinking that flight 77 was a "military jet" yet another and let's not forget the lies of Jim Fetzer I documented on another thread.

As I have repeatedly pointed out the quotes of the firemen are very selectively edited in a similarly dishonest fashion which indicates an intent to deceive. I don't think Jack was the deceptive person in this case, just as Peter wasn't with the radon article, and John wasn't with the tritium article. In all those cases they represented another example of what's wrong with the " 'truth' movement" careless research, i.e. just repeating what they read on 911 revisionist websites and not bothering to verify it.

Below are just two examples of the edited versions of Jack's quotes and the full versions. The 'redacted' portion is underlined and in bold. One thing I've noticed is that these sites rarely provide links back to the original, hmmm wonder why that is?

Craig Carlsen -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 8]

"I guess about three minutes later you just heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions. At the time I didn't realize what it was. We realized later after talking and finding out that it was the floors collapsing to where the plane had hit."

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC

/9110505.PDF

Albert Turi -- Deputy Assistant Chief (F.D.N.Y.)

"And as my eyes traveled up the building, and I was looking at the south tower, somewhere about halfway up, my initial reaction was there was a secondary explosion, and the entire floor area, a ring right around the building blew out. I later realized that the building had started to collapse already and this was the air being compressed and that is the floor that let go."

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Turi_Albert.txt

Yes several witnesses compared the sound of the building collapsing to explosions, yes some even said they thought at the moment they heard them explosives were being used but as I showed in a previous post it is common for people even war veterans to compare loud noises to bombs.

I have challenge for the 911 revisionists, find me someone who was at the WTC during the time between when the North Tower was hit and when it collapsed who stated after Sept. 11 they still thought explosives were used other that Rodriguez and 2 or 3 of his co-workers and the EMT who claims she saw a plane explode over NJ.

Also is should be noted Jack "plagiarized" his post from here http://911review.com/coverup/oralhistories.html . I wonder if Sid will take him to task for this or if he reserves condemnation in cases like these for members of a certain ethnic group.

Len

Why is it that whenever you disprove so-called "facts" brought forth by these CTists, they never go back to try and defend them? Instead, they always move onto another so-called "fact" which proves equally spurious.

Equally strange is how the CTists are always caught out promoting disinformation and lies, yet they are the ones who accuse others of doing it.

Funny old world, eh?

Yeah real 'funny' policestate, nacent fascist state of the world...I'll break my usual rule to comment. I for one don't usually get inolved anymore in dueling with those who are close minded and only working to prove that conspiracy is a concept in the minds of the deluded masses [and not in the hands of the powerful and all too often in control]. While I sometimes read the poop that some of the anti-conspiracy / pro-coincidence people put out, I don't take the 'bait' oftne to discuss and rarely to never feel they have proven anything as fact. I do, however, put out information for those out there [mostly silent lurkers too afraid to speak] and those who want the chance to enlighten themselves. As to who is promoting dis-information and lies, I'll leave that to history...as I think it will show that your 'side' is involved in the proponderance of that. And I'll leave you with one thought....perhaps the perception of yours above is 'just a coincidence'.....as are all historical actions in your view it seems.....dream on.....

I for one am trying to 'awake' from the nightmare people with your view have allowed to happen.

Editorializing proves nothing if you can't cite examples or other evidence to back your case.

Nightmares indeed.

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id416.html

This, of course, after shooting all the messengers of truth.

Bests,

John McCarthy

Who exactly has been shot John?

The documentary was interesting did make a good case that the Neo-Cons etc have abused the threat of terror to their political advantage though the maker did seem to overstate his case a bit.

He never challenged the presumtion that Al-Queda was responsible for 9/11. Or perhaps in John or someone else thinks I'm wrong they can quote the section of the transcript where he indicates otherwise.

[John J. McCarthy]

Answers are in the details, lenny.

Take those blinders off and see the light!

[John J. McCarthy]

9/11 TRUTH -- THE KEY TO STOPPING WORLD WAR III

RESOLUTION SUBMITTED TO THE 911 CHICAGO TRUTH CONFERENCE, JUNE 2-4, 2006

Under the Cheney doctrine and the Pentagon's Global Strike, US forces are now on the verge of a surprise attack, quite possibly in nuclear form, against Iran. As Philip Giraldi wrote last July, the Cheney doctrine prescribes that this attack will come in the wake of a new 9/11 or new Gulf of Tonkin incident. With the US and UK stalled at the UN by Russian and Chinese rejection of their plans for aggression, all indications are that such a new 9/11 is being actively prepared by rogue networks within the US intelligence community of CIA, NSA, DIA, NSC, Pentagon, and State Department, plus allied and privatized capabilities. The neocons, many of whom face early criminal indictment, are opting for a flight forward into war.

With the visits during late May of Israel's Ehud Olmert and Britain's Tony Blair to Washington, the aggressor coalition seems to be ready. Cheney's controllers now require only a pretext, a provocation to justify their attack. Will they attack under the cover of the soccer World Cup, to be held in Germany during June? An attack in Europe would help recruit coalition partners. Will they sink a US warship in the Gulf? In this case, a third country could do the job, with the blame going to Iran. As in the case of 9/11, they will manufacture the provocation they need for the next phase of the war of civilizations. Arabs and Moslems will be involved as patsies -- under the label of Hezbollah, Iran, etc. An attack on Iran will kill Chinese in the oil fields and Russians in the nuclear reactor sites. It will begin the inexorable slide into World War III. Neocon fascist madmen Lieber and Press, writing in the March-April issue of Foreign Affairs, promise that a thermonuclear first strike against Russia and/or China is eminently feasible. The same neocon networks which promised the Iraqi cakewalk are now promising a nuclear cakewalk. This time the result could be the incineration of the US and large parts of the world. The neocons must be driven from public life, even as the September criminals are brought to justice.

The attack on Iran has little to do with unproven allegations that Teheran might acquire a nuclear device. Israel alone has nearly 500 nuclear weapons of all types, plus an ABM system. The insanity of the Anglo-American elites reflects the death agony of the US dollar. As Iran, Russia, Venezuela and even Norway prepare to buy and sell oil in rubles, euros, and through barter deals, hundreds of billions of dollars of central bank reserves are poised to quit the greenback. The result would be a dollar panic, with dollar owners stampeding towards the exits. The US currency might lose between 25% and 75% of its value. With emerging market currencies and stock markets crashing, the tropism of the US-UK elites is toward war in a bid to retain world domination.

Bush retains the support of some 35% of the US population. With this 35% he can resist impeachment and wage war indefinitely. These are persons who have accepted the government's nightmare vision of 9/11. They are terrorized, literally scared out of their wits. They are relatively impervious to the many valid arguments which can be made against the Iraq war, against Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, torture, secret prisons, illegal renditions, NSA wiretaps, and totalitarian police state policies. These they regard as necessities of a war forced up the US by a foreign aggressor. The only hope of reaching these people, and thus of attrition and erosion of Bush's base, is to demolish and discredit the 9/11 myth itself. The attacks came from the US secret government, not from Bin Laden's cave. The Charlie Sheen episode shows that the 9/11 issue offers by far the greatest bang for the buck -- it is the ultimate weapon against Bush. Only a sustained series of explosive revelations and exposures of 9/11 truth can cripple the Bush regime, roll up the rogue networks, and block the new 9/11 and October surprise scenarios. It is here that the treachery of the gatekeepers emerges. Left liberal figures like Noam Chomsky, Amy Goodman, Michael Moore, The Nation magazine, and most of Air America have stubbornly parroted the Bush-FBI lies about 9/11. There are right gatekeepers too, like antiwar.com and many of its writers. The gatekeepers must catch up with the truth or enter the dust bin of history.

But what about 9/11 truth? Within the 9/11 truth movement, some still debate unanswered questions, or the incompetence and negligence theory. Others continue to embrace LIHOP, the notion that the Bush regime Let It Happen On Purpose. In our view, these approaches are gravely deficient because they all accept the key point of the government's demagogy: they assume that some such independent entity as "al Qaeda" really exists, and really has the capability of producing the results seen on 9/11. This is precisely the Big Lie we must reject. "Al Qaeda" could not subsist without the support of CIA (and of Britain's MI-6, as David Shayler's reports show). "Al Qaeda" is a wholly owned subsidiary of US-UK intelligence. The true face of "al Qaeda" was that of the psychotic patsy Moussaoui, who was deemed a delusional paranoid schizophrenic by psychiatric experts, or of Richard Reid, the mentally retarded derelict produced by the MI-6 school for patsies at Finsbury mosque in London. Moussaoui claimed they were going to attack the White House with a 747. In reality, this pathetic pair could hardly have hijacked a pushcart.

There is no substitute for MIHOP (the idea that US government forces Made It Happen On Purpose). As David Ray Griffin recently observed, "It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government." Morgan Reynolds and other members of the Scholars for 9/11 Truth also argue this point. Our European colleagues have been MIHOP from the outset. The 9/11 truth movement should now unite on the basis of MIHOP, and put aside uncertainty.

Anything short of full political MIHOP leaves us with a powerful enemy and the need to wage the fraudulent war on terror in some better form. Anything short of MIHOP is ultimately compatible with support for Democrats who want to continue the Afghan/Iraq/Iran war if they seize control of the Congress this November, or with the presidential candidacy of Hillary Clinton, who is running as a bigger and better warmonger than Bush, while promising to extort European troops and European funding which Bush cannot provide. By failing to filibuster Hayden for the CIA, the Democratic Party has again proclaimed itself feckless. The Republican Party may break up over the immigration issue. The Democrats may break up if they attempt to prolong the wars. 9/11 truth can be a catalyst for a progressive outcome of the looming crisis of the political system.

If the new 9/11 comes, it will likely be under the guise of a government drill or exercise. As Operation Mongoose was used to bootleg the JFK assassination, and as Nine Lives was used to conduit the Hinckley hit on Reagan in 1981, we have seen how the 9/11 events were run through the fifteen plus drills going on that morning. We have seen the London explosions of July 7, 2005 carried out under the aegis of Atlantic Blue (UK), Topoff 3 (US), and Triple Play (Canada), plus Visor Consultants. Our movement was able to block Sudden Response 05 in Charleston, South Carolina, last August. It shall be the policy of our movement to monitor, identify, expose, denounce, and shut down WMD drills and exercises which threaten to go live in the form of real attacks anywhere in the world. It is our urgent duty to inoculate populations against this notorious trick of the rogue networks.

The 9/11 truth movement may currently include as many as 5,000 activists. To pull the world back from the brink of general war, it is imperative that this be expanded a thousand fold, to 5 million. Five million activists influencing a periphery of 20 to 25 million activists -- leftists, progressives, conservatives, communitarians, independents -- could shift the political constellation, starting with the left wing of the Democratic Party. As for conservative 9/11 truth activists, they are the adversaries Bush-Cheney fear most. The Pentagon's 9/11 tape release has proven a fiasco. The Moussaoui jury refused to execute. Recent calls for 9/11 truth by the late William Sloan Coffin, Rabbi Michael Lerner, and above all the new Zogby poll showing that 42% of Americans reject the 9/11 commission report, with 47% wanting a Congressional probe or an independent international truth commission, show that the massive expansion of our movement is within reach.

Accordingly, we commit ourselves to the following actions over the remaining months of 2006:

- The Vermont Green Party is the first state party to call for the impeachment of Bush-Cheney based on their 9/11 crimes, with the first article against Bush for misprision of high treason. This approach should be replicated everywhere. Our movement is the cutting edge of impeachment, and we must guarantee that the impeachment groundswell includes the 9/11 element without which it will falter.

- We will take back the air waves from the corporate media with a relentless barrage of phone calls to C-SPAN, Air America, and to every television and radio talk show in this country and beyond, all for the purpose of placing 9/11 truth at the top of the national agenda. This guerrilla war can bring our message to tens of millions of people every day, circumventing the gatekeepers.

- We will support candidates of any party or of no party who embrace 9/11 truth. We will focus national attention on key candidacies like those of Carol Brouillet for Congress in California, Bob Bowman for Congress in Florida, Craig Hill in Vermont, and others. We also wish to direct international attention to the candidacy of Irish 9/11 truth movement leader Morgan Stack to the Dail (Parliament of the Republic of Ireland) for the district of Cork South Central.

- We will continue our surveillance of drills and exercises to raise the political price the invisible government must pay if it seeks to carry out new crimes.

- While stressing that the MIHOP historical and political analysis of 9/11 is already conclusive, we urge that 9/11 deep throats and whistleblowers come forward, both to testify and to produce additional written or recorded evidence of courtroom quality on the scale of the Watergate tapes that can put the September criminals behind bars.

- In the event that Bush-Cheney seek to impose martial law, we will agitate for an open-ended general strike of the civil rights movement, the labor movement, immigrant groups, minorities, students, and all persons of good will to demand the restoration of Constitutional rule.

We call for a united front of groups and organizations for action on these points.

THIS RESOLUTION IS SPONSORED BY:

VERMONT GREEN PARTY

VERMONT COALITION FOR 9/11 TRUTH

CONCORDIA FOUNDATION, NEW YORK, NY

PROGRESSIVE PRESS, JOSHUA TREE CALIF.

9ELEVEN.INFO

SEATTLE 9/11 VISIBILITY PROJECT

9/11 VISIBILITY PROJECT IDAHO

9/11 TRUTH LA

IRISH 9/11 TRUTH MOVEMENT

BURLINGTON 9/11 ACTION

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Bests,

John McCarthy

[Evan Burton]

You have chosen the wrong side of truth and of history.

Meh - I'll live with it.

[Craig Lamson]

Is anyone else having problems getting to posts on the second page of this thread? I am...and can't. Howevr, I saw [as email summary] Len telling me that editorializing means nothing....which gets to the very point....what the f is your position and viewpoint? We are not discussing something of no consequence IMO. If you are correct, then America is just the place we have always been hypnotized-proragandized to believe in and all is right with the universe, except I and others [growing, I'll have you know!] are deluded and hallucinating such things as LHO not being the assassin, nor James Earl Ray, nor Sirhan Sirhan, that the Hay Market Fire was a fake [look it up!]; Watergate never happened, Tonkin a real event; all the government overthrows, assassinations, death squads, covert ops, etc. just a figment of our twisted imaginations....BUT if we are correct and you are wrong [either out of naivety or complicity] our country and our world are facing an unprecidented edge-of-the-cliff situation......over the cliff and world war or fascism or destruction by degredation of the environment and with a handfew of rich managing, for a while, to avoid the pain and suffering the others will endure in the last days and years.....it is THAT important!....and why I for one find people like you, the enemy....for if you are not part of the solution - your part of the problem! Time is short. The stakes are ultimate. The enemy is not at the gates, but most everywhere in the power structures of Amerika and spreading elsewhere. Amerika is not the only evil nation or with evil leaders, but as the world's most powerful nation and as my country I, for one, put my foot down and say BASTA!....they shall not pass further toward fascism, policestate, politics through lies and deception, action based on hate and greed. Where are you in that? I fear on the side of evil, of deception, of avarice, of the very dark forces that have brought us to this sad precipice. You have chosen the wrong side of truth and of history.

The words of a paranoid old fool...what a sad life you lead Peter. I really feel sorry for you.

[Len Colby]

Is anyone else having problems getting to posts on the second page of this thread? I am...and can't.

Is it just me, or were we just on the ninth page of this thread?

"Howevr, I saw [as email summary] Len telling me that editorializing means nothing."

My exact words were "Editorializing proves nothing if you can't cite examples or other evidence to back your case." See my point about "truthers" selectively editing quotes"

"....which gets to the very point....what the f is your position and viewpoint?"

That rants like this one and the one I was referring to don't move this discussion forward. You've already given different versions of the same basic spiel on most threads you participate in here.

"… you are correct, … I and others [growing, I'll have you know!] are deluded and hallucinating…"

Couldn't agree more!

Sorry I couldn't resist editing a quote "truther" style. That whole bit was a straw man thoses case have nothing to do with the question at hand the only ones I expressed disagreement with your position are Sirhan Sirhan and Watergate.

Where did I ever say "all is right with the universe"?

"You have chosen the wrong side of truth and of history."

Sounds like the kind of thing a neo-con would say, did you get that line from Karl Rove?

Len

Edited October 10, 2006 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

Peter,

A few months ago I was sitting in a cowded NYC subway car, there was an elderly African American woman obviously in poor health standing next to me so I offered here my seat.

She went into some incomprehensible rant (sort of like the ones you regularly offer up) about how I had "offended" her and was a "decadent Caucasian" and something about "Uncle Toms" and "lynchings". Most of the other African-Americans near by made a point of rolling their eyes as if to say 'I've got nothing to do with this'. After she got off an African American couple made a point of coming over to me sort of to apologize, I told them I wasn't offended because the woman was obviously crazy.

With your rant you reminded me of that unfortunate woman. My grandfather died in Buchenwald because he deluded himself into believing he would be OK, so I should have found your screed offensive but since it's just the ranting of a lunatic it doesn't bother me. Jews and Leftists in Germany had direct evidence of persecution some deluded themselves like my grandfather. 9/11 is the opposite there is no real evidence of CD or an "inside job" but some people delude themselves into believing there is. It seems hardly a coincidence that there is an overlap between Holocaust deniers and the " 'truth' movement" (Eric Hufsmidt, Bollyn and his employer the American Free Press, Sid Walker (former?) webmaster at Physics 911, Jeff Rense, "The Truth Seeker" etc.

Len

Edited October 10, 2006 by Len Colby

[Jack White]

Peter,

A few months ago I was sitting in a cowded NYC subway car, there was an elderly African American woman obviously in poor health standing next to me so I offered here my seat.

She went into some incomprehensible rant (sort of like the ones you regularly offer up) about how I had "offended" her and was a "decadent Caucasian" and something about "Uncle Toms" and "lynchings". Most of the other African-Americans near by made a point of rolling their eyes as if to say 'I've got nothing to do with this'. After she got off an African American couple made a point of coming over to me sort of to apologize, I told them I wasn't offended because the woman was obviously crazy.

With your rant you reminded me of that unfortunate woman. My grandfather died in Buchenwald because he deluded himself into believing he would be OK, so I should have found your screed offensive but since it's just the ranting of a lunatic it doesn't bother me. Jews and Leftists in Germany had direct evidence of persecution some deluded themselves like my grandfather. 9/11 is the opposite there is no real evidence of CD or an "inside job" but some people delude themselves into believing there is. It seems hardly a coincidence that there is an overlap between Holocaust deniers and the " 'truth' movement" (Eric Hufsmidt, Bollyn and his employer the American Free Press, Sid Walker (former?) webmaster at Physics 911, Jeff Rense, "The Truth Seeker" etc.

Len

Colby is a HOLOCAUST DENIER...BUT OF A DIFFERENT HOLOCAUST...the one perpetrated

on 911.

He also tries his hand at political correctness by using the inaccurate term AFRICAN-AMERICAN.

Not all Africans are NEGRO (Spanish) or BLACK (English)...many are Egyptian, Arab, or

South African (mostly WHITE). Negro and Black referring a race indiginous to Africa are words

of careful historical accuracy. "African-American" is a meaningless term made up to molify

descendants of former slaves, most of whose DNA is only a SMALL FRACTION Negro, often

as little as one sixty-fourth. Slavery was an abomination of an era not completely civilized.

But the word Negro is not an abomination.

Jack

Edited October 10, 2006 by Jack White

[Jack White]

Thanks to Colby for calling to our attention that SID WALKER is

a member of the highly respected PHYSICS 911 group which

opposes disinformation like Colby presents. Here are the other

members of the 911 group:

Membership on the S.P.I.N.E. Panel is determined by professional status and area.

Current Members include:

Walter E. Davis Social & Human Health Theorist Member

A. K. Dewdney Mathematician, Computer Scientist, Biologist Member

John DiNardo Physics Teacher Member

Derrick Grimmer Physicist Member

Jim Hoffman Physician, Engineering Background Member

Eric Huffschmid Software Developer Member

Joseph D. Keith Aeronautical Engineer Member

Tim Howells Computer Scientist Member

Jerry Longspaugh Aeronautical Engineer Member

Scott Loughrey Computer Programmer Member

Brad Molineux Cellphone Engineer Member

Sid Walker Webmaster & Editor Member

[Jack White]

Peter,

A few months ago I was sitting in a cowded NYC subway car, there was an elderly African American woman obviously in poor health standing next to me so I offered here my seat.

She went into some incomprehensible rant (sort of like the ones you regularly offer up) about how I had "offended" her and was a "decadent Caucasian" and something about "Uncle Toms" and "lynchings". Most of the other African-Americans near by made a point of rolling their eyes as if to say 'I've got nothing to do with this'. After she got off an African American couple made a point of coming over to me sort of to apologize, I told them I wasn't offended because the woman was obviously crazy.

With your rant you reminded me of that unfortunate woman. My grandfather died in Buchenwald because he deluded himself into believing he would be OK, so I should have found your screed offensive but since it's just the ranting of a lunatic it doesn't bother me. Jews and Leftists in Germany had direct evidence of persecution some deluded themselves like my grandfather. 9/11 is the opposite there is no real evidence of CD or an "inside job" but some people delude themselves into believing there is. It seems hardly a coincidence that there is an overlap between Holocaust deniers and the " 'truth' movement" (Eric Hufsmidt, Bollyn and his employer the American Free Press, Sid Walker (former?) webmaster at Physics 911, Jeff Rense, "The Truth Seeker" etc.

Len

Colby is a HOLOCAUST DENIER...BUT OF A DIFFERENT HOLOCAUST...the one perpetrated

on 911.

He also tries his hand at political correctness by using the inaccurate term AFRICAN-AMERICAN.

Not all Africans are NEGRO (Spanish) or BLACK (English)...many are Egyptian, Arab, or

South African (mostly WHITE). Negro and Black referring a race indiginous to Africa are words

of careful historical accuracy. "African-American" is a meaningless term made up to molify

descendants of former slaves, most of whose DNA is only a SMALL FRACTION Negro, often

as little as one sixty-fourth. Slavery was an abomination of an era not completely civilized.

But the word Negro is not an abomination.

Jack

PS...I had forgotten that this was a touchy issue for the framers of the Constitution, because

many were slave owners...so they avoided using the words NEGRO or SLAVES...but did use

the word INDIANS.

From Wikipedia:

The three-fifths clause was proposed by Pennsylvanian delegate James Wilson at the Constitutional Convention of 1787 as a compromise between Southerners and Northerners over how to count slaves for the purposes of determining representation in the House of Representatives and for taxation. The three-fifths compromise is found in Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3 of the United States Constitution.

"Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons."

Although the words "slave" and "slavery" are not found in the Constitution this and two other references to the institution of slavery are widely interpreted as giving an implicit sanction to the institution in the U.S. Constitution. The other two references are the prohibition for Congress to restrict the international slave trade for twenty years (Article I, Section 9, Paragraph 1), and the provision for a fugitive slave clause (Article IV, Section 2, Paragraph 3).

Northern delegates generally wished to count only the free inhabitants of each state. Southern delegates to the Constitutional Convention, on the other hand, generally wanted to count slaves at their actual numbers. Since slaves could not vote, Southern slaveholders would thus have the benefit of increased representation in the House and Electoral College (taxation was only a secondary issue). The final compromise of counting slaves as only three fifths of their actual numbers is generally credited with giving the South disproportionate political power in the U.S. government from the establishment of the Constitution until the Civil War.

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http://libraries.uta.edu/SpecColl/findaids...tm#Bio%20Sketch

Edited October 10, 2006 by Jack White