Which came first, the bus or the Rambler?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Sandy Larsen writes:

Quote

HARVEY Oswald scored about what a ten-year-old Russian would score. Which is the approximate age HARVEY was when he immigrated to America and began speaking English.

I realise that the cult's three remaining believers are just making up doctrine as they go along, but surely someone should have sorted all of this out long ago.

It's been two decades now since Armstrong published his novel. The essential element of that work of fiction is an imaginary long-term project involving two pairs of doppelgangers. But there's still no agreement about why the OSS or CIA (delete as appropriate) would have decided to set up that imaginary project. There's still no coherent explanation of why any doppelgangers of any age would have been recruited.

Jim has plucked from some unmentionable location a doppelganger Oswald who was recruited at the age of five or younger. Sandy has plucked from another unmentionable location a doppelganger Oswald who was recruited as a ten-year-old. And John, the world's most incompetent photo analyst, has implied that his own doppelganger Oswald had been recruited by the age of three, since two photos of the real-life Lee Harvey Oswald from around that age supposedly show the infant Oswald with differently sized earlobes, measurements of which John has not yet supplied.

If our three remaining members of the 'Harvey and Lee' brains trust want to be taken seriously, please could they at least put their heads together and come up with a scenario, however far-fetched and implausible, that they all agree on?

Or, if they insist on retaining their doctrinal differences, perhaps each of them could come up with a coherent scenario that explains their different blind guesses about the age at which their imaginary doppelganger Oswald was recruited.

Jim - why did the OSS recruit a Russian-speaking five-year-old, and how did the CIA end up with someone whose Russian was worse than that of a native adult speaker?

Sandy - why did the CIA recruit a Russian-speaking ten-year-old, and how did they end up with someone whose Russian was worse than that of a native adult speaker?

John - why did the OSS recruit a Russian-speaking three-year-old, and how did the CIA end up with someone whose Russian was worse than that of a native adult speaker?

Whatever the age of the imaginary Oswald doppelganger, the theory makes no sense, does it?

Why would the CIA or the OSS or any other rational organisation have set up a long-term scheme involving two pairs of doppelgangers, only to end up with a defector to the Soviet Union whose Russian was indistinguishable from that of the real-life, one and only Lee Harvey Oswald, who began learning Russian in his late teens?

Why would anyone have gone to all that trouble when they could simply have recruited one American and got him to learn Russian?

[Jim Hargrove]

 

It’s amazing how hard Jeremy is working to exorcise the Harvey and Lee Menace® from the psyches of just three “cultists.” He knows, of course, that interest in two Oswalds is far wider than he wants us to believe.  

Dr. George Schwimmer’s best selling book DOPPELGANGER is now in it’s sixth edition.  

 

From the publisher’s blurb on Amazon:

Sixth Edition, with proof that Harvey Oswald was CIA, April, 2022.....THE GREATEST MURDER MYSTERY IN UNITED STATES HISTORY - THE ENIGMA OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD - HAS BEEN SOLVED! TWO ‘LEE HARVEY OSWALDS’ WERE AT THE TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY ON NOVEMBER 22, 1963 – ONE WAS AN ASSASSIN ON THE SIXTH FLOOR, THE OTHER WAS A PATSY DOWNSTAIRS ON THE FRONT STEPS!.... 

Pat Shannon’s book is also based almost entirely on Harvey and Lee.

David Mantik, Joseph McBride, Dr. James Norwood, David Josephs, Robert Groden, among many others, including many others on this forum, have held Harvey and Lee in the highest regard.  If memory serves, Mr. Mantik once said it was his favorite book on the subject.  John Armstrong has been a guest on Len Osanic's Black Op Radio at least a dozen times.

Two YouTube movies by “MrChrillemannen,”presenting John Armstrong interviews with accompanying graphics, have been viewed nearly 700,000 times!

Captain Westbrook, officer Tippit and Oswald's double

and

Who impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald?

Jeremy’s desperate and disjointed attempts to discredit H&L on one hand claims that we are “cultists” following “gospel,” and on the other hand tries to mock us because we are obviously uncertain of Harvey Oswald’s exact age.

Jeremy sure does demand that we answer all kinds of questions, but he is obviously loathe to answer questions we put to him.  So….

Since Jeremy admits that there “were ad hoc impersonations to implicate Oswald as the sort of person who might go on to shoot a president.,” I’ll ask this question again:

If Mr. Bojczuk would care to share the earliest date he believes LHO was impersonated, we could then take a look to see if there is strong evidence of an earlier impersonation.  Jeremy?

In another desperate attempt to discredit H&L research, in the post directly above this one Mr. Bojczuk refers to John Butler as "the world's most incompetent photo analyst."  Not only is this untrue, but it is a clear violation of Forum rules.

To see what Jeremy Bojczuk is so desperately trying to discredit, feel free to visit the Harvey and Lee website.

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

8 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

Here's a thought...whether you subscribe to the Harvey & Lee theory or not.

What if Oswald's imperfect Russian speaking ability was to conceal a much higher level of UNDERSTANDING Russian?

In Minsk, would it be likely that the Russians might feel freer to discuss certain topics within earshot of Oswald if they thought he understood much less Russian than he actually did? Wouldn't that be an advantage for a false defector who knew he'd be returning to the USA?

Just a thought.

Mark,

That's probably pretty close to what happened.  For example, medics at Moscow’s Botkinskaya Hospital, where Oswald was taken after his suicide “attempt,” noted: “The patient apparently understands the questions asked in Russian. Sometimes he answers correctly, but immediately states that he does not understand what was asked.”

[John Butler]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

I realise that the cult's three remaining believers are just making up doctrine as they go along, but surely someone should have sorted all of this out long ago.

Jim,

Should we price robes and candles on Amazon.  If we had some we could go out at midnight and chant Harvey and Lee theory.  Nah!!!

When Jeremy lacks substantive claims, he will turn to insults.  It is a sign he has nothing to say except to repeat cointelpro tactics. 

As far as being called "the world's most photo analyst", that just says Jeremy recognizes what is being shown by me and can't come to terms with it.  I can't reply in turn because my posts will be hidden.

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

John - why did the OSS recruit a Russian-speaking three-year-old, and how did the CIA end up with someone whose Russian was worse than that of a native adult speaker?

My version of where Harvey came from is a bit different from most H & L theorists.  I believe Harvey was a native of Russia somewhere in the area of Minsk.  His real name may have been Alex Hidell since he favored Alex or Alec.  He was taken from there when he was young due to German military aggression.  He may even have been Jewish (this is questionable) and saved from the camps or death pits.

Somewhere around 1944 or 1945 Harvey was taken to Switzerland under a program run by Allen Dulles.  Dulles first recognized the Germans would lose the war in early 1943 and the next big enemy would be the Russians.  He recognized in would be helpful to have a pool of potential spies from immigrants. 

So, Harvey is 5 or 6 years old when sent to the US.  The route was through Switzerland to France to Spain and then to New York City.  There he was handed over to a communist couple, Emil and Grace Gardos, FBI informants.  They were Hungarian and likely told to keep Harvey's Russian workable. 

Harvey is in New York from 1944-1945 to 1947.  In 1947 he shows up in Texas in school.  A lot of things were happening with communists at that time.  In 1945 President Truman slammed the door on the OSS.  Wild Bill Donovan was fired and the organization reduced to a subdepartment.  Why?  The OSS was heavily infiltrated with Soviet agents.  Partly with the cooperation of Donovan so that the Soviets, our ally at the time, would know what was going on.

The Tippit phone call gives us a look at Harvey and the Gardos.  An unknown woman called Mrs. Tippit and gave information about Harvey and the Grados and others.  The questions are who was this woman and how did she know the facts of Harvey and the Gardos?

IMO, this was Elizabeth Bentley.  She would have known it all.  By 1945 she was in charge of all Soviet intelligence operations on the east coast.  However, she ran afoul of the old timers in Moscow.  She defected to the FBI.  Her main interrogator was William Harvey, then an FBI agent.  When Truman learned of the communist infiltration of the OSS he fired Donovan and axed the agency.            

Edited June 12, 2022 by John Butler

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

John Butler writes:

Quote

I believe Harvey was a native of Russia somewhere in the area of Minsk.

What documentary evidence exists to show that this imaginary doppelganger was "a native of Russia somewhere in the area of Minsk"? By the way, Minsk is in Belarus, not Russia.

Quote

He was taken from there when he was young due to German military aggression.

What documentary evidence exists to show that this imaginary doppelganger was taken from "the area of Minsk" when he was young? And who was it who took him? What documentary evidence identifies this person?

Quote

He may even have been Jewish (this is questionable) and saved from the camps or death pits.

What documentary evidence suggests that this imaginary doppelganger was Jewish?

Quote

Somewhere around 1944 or 1945 Harvey was taken to Switzerland

What documentary evidence exists to show that this imaginary doppelganger was taken to Switzerland?

Quote

Harvey is 5 or 6 years old when sent to the US.

What documentary evidence is there of this imaginary doppelganger's date of birth?

Quote

The route was through Switzerland to France to Spain

What documentary evidence exists to show that this imaginary doppelganger travelled through those countries?

Quote

They were Hungarian and likely told to keep Harvey's Russian workable.

What documentary evidence exists to show that these particular Hungarians spoke Russian? How good would their Russian have needed to be in order to keep a five-year-old's Russian "workable" in an otherwise English-speaking community?

This is just standard 'Harvey and Lee' stuff: a story constructed out of a huge amount of speculation and a minimal amount (if that) of solid documentary evidence.

-----

The point I've been trying to get the 'Harvey and Lee' faithful to understand is that they need to produce a plausible model of their theory. A collection of supposed biographical events, all of which (or, to be generous, almost all of which) have plausible alternative explanations, is worthless if no coherent framework exists.

The faithful have proposed that one or other organisation (maybe the OSS, maybe the CIA; they'll get back to us when they've worked out that part) set up a long-term project involving two pairs of doppelgangers, and that more than a decade later this project produced a false defector who spoke Russian less well than a native adult speaker.

But the faithful have not explained how that project produced that defector:

• If the defector's Russian was that of a native adult speaker when he went into the project, why was it not at that level when he came out a decade or more later?
• If the defector's Russian was not that of a native adult speaker when he went into the project, what reason was there for recruiting him and the other three doppelgangers?

The faithful need to explain the thinking behind their supposed double-doppelganger project. Why was the decision made to recruit two pairs of doppelgangers? What was the goal? If the goal was to produce someone whose Russian was that of a native speaker, why did it fail to achieve that goal?

[Jim Hargrove]

On 6/11/2022 at 3:46 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The few strong claims of impersonation also have a plausible non-doppelganger explanation: they were ad hoc impersonations to implicate Oswald as the sort of person who might go on to shoot a president.

Mr. Bojczuk has admitted that Classic Oswald® was impersonated numerous times.

As always, he wants H&L proponents to answer all sorts of questions.

But when we ask him a simple question, he just ignores it.  So,for the third time now….

Will Jeremy share with us the earliest date he believes LHO was impersonated?  

If he did so, we could then take a look to see if there is strong evidence of an earlier impersonation.  He won’t respond to this question, of course, because he knows it will prompt me to post more EVIDENCE, and he is obviously trying to avoid that.  

[Sandy Larsen]

On 6/12/2022 at 3:25 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Quote

HARVEY Oswald scored about what a ten-year-old Russian would score. Which is the approximate age HARVEY was when he immigrated to America and began speaking English.

 

On 6/12/2022 at 3:25 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

I realise that the cult's three remaining believers are just making up doctrine as they go along, but surely someone should have sorted all of this out long ago.

 

Everything I say about the Oswald Project and HARVEY Oswald (of the HARVEY & LEE theory) is a hypothesis designed to fit numerous pieces of evidence together. I don't just "make things up."

Unlike Jeremy, I don't sweep inconvenient evidence under the rug, or pretend it doesn't exist.

Unlike Jeremy, I don't make things up in an attempt to discourage readers from studying the evidence or the theory. Things like, there being only "three remaining believers."

Unlike Jeremy, I don't say derisive and other stupid things, like the H&L theory being a "cult," and there being "doctrine" for it.

Unlike Jeremy, I am serious in my research and analyses.

(I sure am glad I'm unlike Jeremy.)

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

The remaining cult members are still unable to come up with a plausible explanation for their cult's central point of doctrine. They claim that either the OSS or the CIA recruited two pairs of doppelgangers back in the mid-1940s or thereabouts. They claim that one pair of doppelgangers was made up of one American boy and one eastern European boy, and that the latter was recruited because of his knowledge of Russian.

Admittedly, they're not quite sure whether it was the OSS or the CIA who set up this unlikely project. They're not quite sure when the unlikely project was set up. They're not quite sure where in eastern Europe the doppelganger boy came from, or what his real name was, or how he reached the US. They're not quite sure how old he was when he was recruited: he may have been three years old, or ten years old, or something in between. They're not quite sure whether this boy's knowledge of Russian was that of a three-year-old, or of a ten-year-old, or of someone in between. It all looks rather like guesswork.

More importantly, the cult members are not sure why the project would have been set up. They used to think that the purpose was to produce someone who:

• spoke Russian like a native, and
• could claim to possess a plausible American background.

But that can't have been the purpose, because the person whom the project supposedly produced, the real-life, one and only Lee Harvey Oswald, did not speak Russian like a native.

So what was the actual purpose of the project?

What was the thinking behind setting up a project that started out with two pairs of doppelgangers and ended up with someone who did not speak Russian like a native?

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

So what was the actual purpose of the project?

What was the thinking behind setting up a project that started out with two pairs of doppelgangers and ended up with someone who did not speak Russian like a native?

Jeremy continues to ignore my repeated question, but I’ll nevertheless  answer his question for the umpteeth time:  The purpose of the Oswald project was to give a Russian-speaking youth an American identity so he could eventually travel to Russia and secretly understand  more of what was being said in Russian by people around him.  As almost everyone except Jeremy understands, starting with a youth who already understood the Russian language had a huge advantage over anyone who might begin taking instructions as an adult or near adult.  It was also handy that Harvey was an orphan, with no real parents to look after him.

In his manuscript, George de Mohrenschildt described Oswald’s amazing skill with the Russian language.

Don’t forget that Professor Vladimir Petrov, chair of the Slavic Language Department at Yale University, stated that he was quite certain that a letter written by LHO was actually written by a “Russian with an imperfect knowledge of the English language.”

And.... For the FOURTH time now….

Will Jeremy EVER share with us the earliest date he believes LHO was impersonated?  

If he ever answers this question, we could then take a look to see if there is strong evidence of an earlier impersonation. He probably won’t respond, of course, because he knows it will prompt me to post more EVIDENCE, and he is obviously trying to avoid that.  
 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

On 6/12/2022 at 9:10 AM, John Butler said:

Jim,

Should we price robes and candles on Amazon.  If we had some we could go out at midnight and chant Harvey and Lee theory.  Nah!!!

When Jeremy lacks substantive claims, he will turn to insults.  It is a sign he has nothing to say except to repeat cointelpro tactics. 

As far as being called "the world's most photo analyst", that just says Jeremy recognizes what is being shown by me and can't come to terms with it.  I can't reply in turn because my posts will be hidden.

My version of where Harvey came from is a bit different from most H & L theorists.  I believe Harvey was a native of Russia somewhere in the area of Minsk.  His real name may have been Alex Hidell since he favored Alex or Alec.  He was taken from there when he was young due to German military aggression.  He may even have been Jewish (this is questionable) and saved from the camps or death pits.

Somewhere around 1944 or 1945 Harvey was taken to Switzerland under a program run by Allen Dulles.  Dulles first recognized the Germans would lose the war in early 1943 and the next big enemy would be the Russians.  He recognized in would be helpful to have a pool of potential spies from immigrants. 

So, Harvey is 5 or 6 years old when sent to the US.  The route was through Switzerland to France to Spain and then to New York City.  There he was handed over to a communist couple, Emil and Grace Gardos, FBI informants.  They were Hungarian and likely told to keep Harvey's Russian workable. 

Harvey is in New York from 1944-1945 to 1947.  In 1947 he shows up in Texas in school.  A lot of things were happening with communists at that time.  In 1945 President Truman slammed the door on the OSS.  Wild Bill Donovan was fired and the organization reduced to a subdepartment.  Why?  The OSS was heavily infiltrated with Soviet agents.  Partly with the cooperation of Donovan so that the Soviets, our ally at the time, would know what was going on.

The Tippit phone call gives us a look at Harvey and the Gardos.  An unknown woman called Mrs. Tippit and gave information about Harvey and the Grados and others.  The questions are who was this woman and how did she know the facts of Harvey and the Gardos?

IMO, this was Elizabeth Bentley.  She would have known it all.  By 1945 she was in charge of all Soviet intelligence operations on the east coast.  However, she ran afoul of the old timers in Moscow.  She defected to the FBI.  Her main interrogator was William Harvey, then an FBI agent.  When Truman learned of the communist infiltration of the OSS he fired Donovan and axed the agency.            

John,

Thanks for the interesting post.  We don’t differ that much in our guesstimates about Harvey Oswald’s origins, but I’m glad you brought up the anonymous phone call received by Mrs. Jack Tippitt.  Here is the entire FBI report about it.  As you implied above, “Emile Kardos” is undoubtedly  communist activist and FBI informant “Emile Gardos.”
 

URGENT 11-30-63 7-37 PM EST MB
TO DIRECTOR, AND SACS DALLAS AND NEW YORK
FROM SAC, NEW HAVEN /100-18158/
NEW YORK VIA WASHINGTON
LEE HARVEY OSWALD, IS - R
ON NOV. THIRTY INSTANT, JACK D. TIPPIT, SELF EMPLOYED
CARTOONIST FOR NATIONAL MAGAZINES AND WIFE, ONE SIX FOUR
NEW TOWN TURNPIKE, WESTPORT, CONN., ADVISED AS FOLLOWS. AT
APPROXIMATELY ELEVEN THIRTY AM ON INSTANT DATE MRS. TIPPIT
RECEIVED A TELEPHONE CALL FROM UNKNOWN WOMAN WHO ASKED IF
MR. TIPPIT WAS A POLICEMAN AND IF HE WAS RELATED TO THE POLICE-
MAN TIPPIT WHO WAS SHOT IN DALLAS. MRS. TIPPIT REPLIED HER
HUSBAND WAS NOT A POLICEMAN, WAS DISTANTLY RELATED TO OFFICER
TIPPIT AND ASKED IDENTITY OF CALLER. ON ANOTHER EXTENSION
JACK TIPPIT LISTENED TO BALANCE OF PHONE CALL. THE WOMAN SAID
SHE COULD NOT GIVE HER NAME AS SHE WAS AFRAID OF BEING KILLED,
THAT SHE WAS FROM NEW YORK AND HAD TO COME "HERE" TO MAKE THE
CALL SO THAT SHE COULD NOT BE TRACED AS SHE WAS IN FEAR OF HER
END PAGE ONE

PAGE TWO:

LIFE. THE WOMAN REQUESTED THAT NOTHING BE SAID TO THE PRESS
ABOUT A WOMAN CALLING AS THEY WOULD KNOW HER IDENTITY AND SHE
WOULD BE KILLED.
THE WOMAN SAID SHE KNEW OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE WHO
WERE HUNGARIANS AND COMMUNISTS. THE WOMAN CONTINUED THAT
OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE HAD LIVED AT SEVENTY SEVENTH AND SECOND
AVENUE, YORKVILLE, NYC, THAT WHILE LIVING THERE BOTH WERE
UNEMPLOYED, GOT THEIR MONEY FROM COMMUNISTS AND SPENT ALL THERE
TIME IN COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES.
THE WOMAN THEN BEGAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY, DISJOINTEDLY,
AND NERVOUSLY. SHE STATED SHE HAD TWO NAMES TO GIVE AND
MENTIONED THE NAME EMILE KARDOS AND SAID SOMETHING ABOUT A
BROTHER IN LAW. WHEN MRS. TIPPIT TRIED TO FIND OUT WHOSE
BROTHER IN LAW THE WOMAN KEPT REPEATING THE WORD BROTHER IN LAW.
THE WOMAN STATED KARDOS IS HEAD OF THE COMMUNISTS AND THAT THIS
GROUP IN NEW YORK NOW HAS CHARTS AND MAPS. THE WOMAN SAID
SOMETHING ABOUT WEINSTOCK THE EDITOR OF QUOTE WOMAN-S WORLD
UNQUOTE BUT DID NOT GIVE FURTHER DETAILS.. THE WOMAN SAID THE
END PAGE TWO

PAGE THREE:

GROUP IN NEW YORK PLANS TO TAKE OVER THE GOVERNMENT, THAT OF
COURSE THEY WOULD DENY THIS BUT SHE KNEW IT TO BE TRUE.
SHE THEN HUNG UP ABRUPTLY. THE WOMAN NEVER GAVE ANY REASON
FOR HER CALL WHICH SOUNDED LOCAL. MRS. TIPPIT THOUGHT THE
WOMAN HAD AN AUSTRIAN OR GERMAN ACCENT WHILE MR. TIPPIT
BELIEVED IT WAS SPANISH. BOTH FELT THE WOMAN SOUNDED LIKE
A MATURE ADULT AND DID NOT HAVE A YOUTHFUL VOICE.
MR. TIPPIT EXPLAINED WOMAN MAY HAVE OBTAINED HIS IDENTITY
FROM AN ARTICLE ON PAGE ONE OF NORWALK, CONN. QUOTE HOUR
UNQUOTE FOR NOVEMBER TWENTYFIVE LAST, WHICH STATED THAT WE MAY
BE A DISTANT RELATIVE OF THE DALLAS POLICEMAN. TIPPIT SAID
ARTICLE RESULTED FROM TELEPHONE CALL FROM REPORTER WHO WAS
CHECKING ALL TIPPITS IN LOCAL TELEPHONE DIRECTORIES.
BUREAU REQUESTED TO COORDINATE ABOVE WITH ANY OTHER
INFORMATION TO DETERMINE IF PERTINENT AS NEW HAVEN HAS NO
KNOWLEDGE OF THE RESIDENCE AND ASSOCIATES OF OSWALD-S FATHER
AND UNCLE.

END AND ACK PLS
7-45 PM OK FBI WA LLD FOR RELAY
6-47 PM CST OK FBI DL FL
TU PLSDISC M
CC-MR_ROSEN

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

The purpose of the Oswald project was to give a Russian-speaking youth an American identity so he could eventually travel to Russia and secretly understand  more of what was being said in Russian by people around him.

Yes, I'm aware of that piece of doctrine: the masterminds are supposed to have set up a double-doppelganger project in order to produce a defector who understood Russian. That would have been the ultimate purpose of the imaginary double-doppelganger project, if it had existed.

What I'm interested in is the specific purpose. The question I've been trying to get Jim and his fellow cult members to answer is: Why doppelgangers?

Why, specifically, would those masterminds at the OSS or CIA have decided to achieve their ultimate goal by using doppelgangers? What would have been the thinking behind that decision?

Quote

starting with a youth who already understood the Russian language had a huge advantage over anyone who might begin taking instructions as an adult or near adult.

Firstly, I'm not sure that a five-year-old would normally be described as a "youth". Secondly, the five-year-old, had he existed, would have been recruited with only a five-year-old's understanding of the language, and would have lived in an English-speaking community for the next 14 years or so, until he defected.

What advantage would there have been in:

• recruiting a five-year-old, with only a five-year-old's understanding of Russian,
• and recruiting a doppelganger boy for that five-year-old,
• and recruiting the doppelganger boy's mother,
• and recruiting a doppelganger for the doppelganger boy's mother,
• and recruiting assorted hangers-on,
• and paying to keep the show on the road for a decade and a half,
• all the while crossing their fingers and hoping that the unrelated boys would end up looking virtually identical (apart from their earlobes),

rather than simply recruiting one person and spending a fraction of the time and money in getting him to learn Russian?

On the face of it, no-one in their right mind would have decided to implement such a complicated and uncertain scheme, when a far simpler alternative would have been available. Recruiting one American would have been such an obvious solution that no-one would even have considered the possibility of using doppelgangers.

To justify all that trouble, expense and uncertainty, the masterminds must have decided that there was a significant advantage in using four doppelgangers instead of one American who understood Russian. Why would they have made that decision? What would their thinking have been?

[Jim Hargrove]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Why, specifically, would those masterminds at the OSS or CIA have decided to achieve their ultimate goal by using doppelgangers? What would have been the thinking behind that decision?

Neither of us are prepared to analyze the decision-making process for a group of people who brought us  the MK Ultra project, but in general terms it seems obvious why lookalikes would be used in the Oswald project.  Again, though, I must say that I believe that Russian-speaking Harvey was probably a little older than American-born Lee.

The whole idea of the Oswald project was to give a Russian-speaking youth an American identity so he could eventually travel to Russia and learn more about its culture. The plan worked beautifully, until it later became entangled in the Kennedy assassination.  Obviously enough, the planners felt that, for the project to work, the long-term impostor needed to have experiences at least similar to his counterpart.  And the two needed to have similar appearances.

That’s almost certainly why, in 1948, one LHO was living at 101 San Saba in Benbrook while the other was at 3330 Willig St. (and then 7408 Ewing) in nearby Fort Worth.  These sites (San Saba and Ewing St.) are less than 10 miles apart.

By the early 1950s, both Oswalds were attending school in New York City, which is the very type of educational jungle the Oswald project could thrive in without detection.  Even then, however, Lee’s good attendance record and Harvey’s chronic truancy threatened to expose the whole project when it got involved in the New York court system. Harvey had to flee to North Dakota and, eventually, the original NYC school records for “Oswald” all disappeared while in FBI custody, to be replaced by easy-to-modify b&w photos.

Both Oswalds attended Beauregard School in New Orleans just, I believe, to give them similar experiences again.

By the mid-1950s, both Oswalds began working in a series of relatively low-paying jobs with dates often conflicted with each other.  These conflicts eventually required the FBI to destroy all the original employment (and school) records for both young men and to create a false employment and education legend.  The Social Security Administration refused to corroborate the Official Story® of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps."

It’s a rather straight-forward exercise to track the two Oswalds’ activities in the Marine Corps, which both participated in at roughly the same time.  My favorite example was Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan.  Other examples from USMC unit diaries and testimony show how the two LHOs associated with completely different groups of Marines both early and late in their enlistment periods.

Most of the above, and many other examples, would have the highest chance of success and the lowest chance of detection if both LHOs had similar appearances.

     * * * * *

Now that I’ve answered your question yet again, will you finally answer mine? 

For the fifth time now, I’ll ask again.

Will you EVER share with us the earliest date you believe LHO was impersonated?  

If you ever answers this question, we could then take a look to see if there is strong evidence of an earlier impersonation.
 

[Allen Lowe]

On 6/11/2022 at 8:28 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

 

HARVEY Oswald scored about what a ten-year-old Russian would score. Which is the approximate age HARVEY was when he immigrated to America and began speaking English.

Therefore he DID speak Russian like a native... a ten year old native.

 

What is this based on? If his comprehension was that of a 10 year old Russian, that's not really the same thing as a 10 year old native Russian, based as it is on an evaluation by an unidentified individual who was presumably an American. It's an equivalency, but in no way can it be used to prove this case. I would like to see some data, how it was determined, when and by who.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Allen Lowe

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Allen Lowe said:

On 6/11/2022 at 6:28 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

HARVEY Oswald scored about what a ten-year-old Russian would score. Which is the approximate age HARVEY was when he immigrated to America and began speaking English.

Therefore he DID speak Russian like a native... a ten year old native.

 

2 hours ago, Allen Lowe said:

What is this based on?

 

The results of the Russian language test Oswald took while in the Marines.

 

2 hours ago, Allen Lowe said:

If his comprehension was that of a 10 year old Russian, that's not really the same thing as a 10 year old native Russian, based as it is on an evaluation by an unidentified individual who was presumably an American.

 

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Anyway, it was a well known standardized test.

 

2 hours ago, Allen Lowe said:

It's an equivalency, but in no way can it be used to prove this case.

 

It can't be used to prove what case? That Oswald's Russian comprehension was like that of a ten-year-old Russian?

Oswald's Russian level certainly wasn't at that of an adult Russian. And it certainly was greater than that of, say, a two year old Russian. Ten is right in the middle of those two ages, so I don't see what could be so controversial about it.

 

2 hours ago, Allen Lowe said:

I would like to see some data, how it was determined, when and by who.

 

We discussed this in a thread like three years ago with forum member Mathias Baumann who happens to be somewhat of an expert on language tests. He evaluated the available information on Oswald's test and said that the test results were consistent with what a Russian child of some certain age would get. I don't recall the age he said, but it was something like ten years old.

I DO believe Mathias knew what he was talking about.

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Allen Lowe]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

 

The results of the Russian language test Oswald took while in the Marines.

 

 

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Anyway, it was a well known standardized test.

 

 

It can't be used to prove what case? That Oswald's Russian comprehension was like that of a ten-year-old Russian?

Oswald's Russian level certainly wasn't at that of an adult Russian. And it certainly was greater than that of, say, a two year old Russian. Ten is right in the middle of those two ages, so I don't see what could be so controversial about it.

 

 

We discussed this in a thread like three years ago with forum member Mathias Baumann who happens to be somewhat of an expert on language tests. He evaluated the available information on Oswald's test and said that the test results were consistent with what a Russian child of some certain age would get. I don't recall the age he said, but it was something like ten years old.

I DO believe Mathias knew what he was talking about.

 

well, without a detailed analysis and an explanation of HOW the results correspond to the language of a 10 year old we are left with just more hearsay. That is a data-based decision, but you continually cite it without data. You are correct, I don't know what I am talking about, because I am relying upon your information and you don't know what you are talking about. So we both sit here in the dark.