Which came first, the bus or the Rambler?

[Steve Thomas]

In terms of their arrival on the scene, which came first, the bus allegedly carrying Oswald, or the Rambler that Roger Craig said he saw?

I have a feeling that it was the bus, but I don't really know.

Steve Thomas

[George Govus]

Bugliosi has Oswald entering the bus at 12:39. Craig said it was 12:40 when he saw a white male in his twenties run down the knoll from the direction of the book depository.

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, George Govus said:

Bugliosi has Oswald entering the bus at 12:39. Craig said it was 12:40 when he saw a white male in his twenties run down the knoll from the direction of the book depository.

George,

That bus timing seems a little off to me, and I say that for two reasons:

1) Oswald supposedly got on the bus in front of the Rio Grande Building at 251 N. Field St. That is approximately 5 blocks from Dealey Plaza. JFK was shot at approximately 12L35 PM. It’s hard to see how Oswald could have walked those 5 blocks in 4 minutes.

For a discussion of Oswald and the Rio Grande Building, see this thread on the Education Forum:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23210-rio-grande-building/

 

2) According to the Dispatch Tapes, George Lumpkin had arrived at the TSBD by 12:49 PM.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

 

15 (Captain C.E. Talbert): “15 is at the scene. We... the building's the Old Purse Company on the east side of Houston. Somebody cut off the back side, will you? Make sure nobody leaves there.”

Dispatcher: “10-4, 15”

15: “15's in charge down here. Correction 5's (Deputy Chief Lumpkin) in charge.”

 

It was Kaminsky who Deputy Chief Lumpkin had positioned at the front door of the TSBD.

Portal to Texas History

[Report from Charles Batchelor to Chief J. E. Curry, November 30, 1963] Page: 43 of 70

 

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338584/m1/43/?q=Stevenson

pp21-22.

This matches exactly what Postal Inspector, Harry Holmes wrote in his Report of Oswald's interrogation on Sunday, November 24^th.

See Warren Report, Appendix XI page 636

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=660&tab=page

It has always surprised me, not that Oswald left the TSBD so quickly, but that he hung around so long.

Steve Thomas

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, George Govus said:

Bugliosi has Oswald entering the bus at 12:39. Craig said it was 12:40 when he saw a white male in his twenties run down the knoll from the direction of the book depository.

Craig later identified the person he saw run down the hill as Lee Harvey Oswald.  The man shot at the DPD who I call Harvey.  Other witnesses identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the bus and taxi rider.  He had things linking him to the bus on him when captured. This was the man shot at the DPD and who I believe is an unknown double of Lee Oswald.

If those times are correct, then you can't have the same person in two different places at roughly the same time.  It could be the same time with watch differences in time.  The key here for me is that Roger Craig and other witnesses for bus and taxi identified Lee Harvey Oswald, the man at the DPD.  In no way is that possible unless the double looked enough like the man at the DPD in features and appearance.  Granted, many people have problems with facial recognition, but I don't think that number is really that big.

One can only conclude there were two Oswalds at the TSBD.

   

[John Butler]

11 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Oswald supposedly got on the bus in front of the Rio Grande Building at 251 N. Field St. That is approximately 5 blocks from Dealey Plaza. JFK was shot at approximately 12L35 PM. It’s hard to see how Oswald could have walked those 5 blocks in 4 minutes.

Didn't witnesses say the shooting occurred at 12:30 PM basing this on the sign/clock above the TSBD.  But, you will have a hard time proving that since I can't find any photos or films showing that clock at that time during the assassination.  There are some after the assassination.

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Didn't witnesses say the shooting occurred at 12:30 PM basing this on the sign/clock above the TSBD.  But, you will have a hard time proving that since I can't find any photos or films showing that clock at that time during the assassination.  There are some after the assassination.

John,

According to CD 705...

The first inclination on the Sheriff's Department Dispatch Tapes that something was wrong comes in at 12:30:40. All Units are ordered to report to the railroad yards.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=394

page 368

 

An unknown mike on Channel 1 of the City's Police Department Dispatches is stuck open between around 12:27 and 12:34.

On Channel 2 of the DPD's Dispatch Tapes, (the cars involved in the motorcade itself), Unit 1 (Chief Curry) orders the units to go to Parkland Hospital and get men on top of that triple underpass to see what's going on up there at 12:30

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=487

page 461

 

I guess I was wrong about the shooting taking place at 12:35.

Steve Thomas

[Richard Price]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Didn't witnesses say the shooting occurred at 12:30 PM basing this on the sign/clock above the TSBD.  But, you will have a hard time proving that since I can't find any photos or films showing that clock at that time during the assassination.  There are some after the assassination.

John, I believe the photo with the time shown is the McIntire photo of the motorcycles ahead of the limo as it comes out from under the triple underpass (the "Old Charter" sign in the foreground.

[John Butler]

8 minutes ago, Richard Price said:

John, I believe the photo with the time shown is the McIntire photo of the motorcycles ahead of the limo as it comes out from under the triple underpass (the "Old Charter" sign in the foreground.

Thanks a bunch Richard,

As much as I have studied that photo, I never saw that.  Even, If I did I don't remember it.  Thanks again.  I'll see if I can keep that in my memory banks.

[John Butler]

21 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

John,

According to CD 705...

The first inclination on the Sheriff's Department Dispatch Tapes that something was wrong comes in at 12:30:40. All Units are ordered to report to the railroad yards.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=394

page 368

 

An unknown mike on Channel 1 of the City's Police Department Dispatches is stuck open between around 12:27 and 12:34.

On Channel 2 of the DPD's Dispatch Tapes, (the cars involved in the motorcade itself), Unit 1 (Chief Curry) orders the units to go to Parkland Hospital and get men on top of that triple underpass to see what's going on up there at 12:30

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=487

page 461

 

I guess I was wrong about the shooting taking place at 12:35.

Steve Thomas

Steve,

There is so much detail to recall in the JFKA that it is a wonder we get anything right.  Richard Price just replied with photo id of the time, the Mcintyre photo.  I don't remember ever seeing that.  And, I spent considerable time trying to find that very info and couldn't.  Thanks again to Richard.

There's another problem I believe.  That is different accounts of the same thing.  Often, one can le lead astray if the other account isn't taken into consideration. 

Thanks for bring this topic up because it helps clarify my thinking on Roger Craig.  Roger Craig blew the cover-up up.  It is a wonder he wasn't killed directly after the assassination.      

[Jonathan Cohen]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

One can only conclude there were two Oswalds at the TSBD.

Correction : YOU conclude there were two Oswalds. As has been demonstrated on this forum many times, hardly ANY serious assassination researchers believe in this nonsensical theory, nor is said theory necessary to explain the Nash Rambler sighting. Roger Craig was simply mistaken, much like so many of the Dealey Plaza witnesses who got basic facts about the shooting slightly incorrect in their retelling of events. There’s nothing nefarious about it.

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Correction : YOU conclude there were two Oswalds. As has been demonstrated on this forum many times, hardly ANY serious assassination researchers believe in this nonsensical theory, nor is said theory necessary to explain the Nash Rambler sighting. Roger Craig was simply mistaken, much like so many of the Dealey Plaza witnesses who got basic facts about the shooting slightly incorrect in their retelling of events. There’s nothing nefarious about it.

Mr. Butler is hardly the only one here who believes in two Oswalds.  Our own Joseph McBride has often said that John Armstrong convinced him there were two Oswalds.  

David Mantik, David Josephs, and Robert Groden, among many others, have held Harvey and Lee in the highest regard.  If memory serves, Mr. Mantik once said it was his favorite book on the subject.  I also believe there were two LHOs.  There's a whole section in Groden's "The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald" entitled "Too Many Oswalds."  In her renowned book "Accessories After the Fact" Sylvia Meagher had pages and pages under the heading "Two Oswalds."

Two YouTube movies by “MrChrillemannen,”presenting John Armstrong interviews with accompanying graphics, have been viewed more than 700,000 times!

Captain Westbrook, officer Tippit and Oswald's double

and

Who impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald?

John’s work has spawned, not counting “The Other Oswald,” which is somewhat different, at least three different books in recent years.

The JFK Assassination and the Uncensored Story of the Two Oswalds

From an Amazon review: “I'd read a good chunk of Armstrong's Harvey and Lee, but Shannan provided clarity for me on the matter of Marguerite Oswald in particular and the whole thesis in general. So much easier to read this digest than the master's unedited tome.”

DOPPELGANGER: The Legend of Lee Harvey Oswald

Dr. Schwimmer’s best-seller is already in it’s fifth edition.

From the publisher’s blurb: “More than 300 sources, including many sworn testimonies & affidavits, were consulted, as well as John Armstrong’s massive research project HARVEY AND LEE. One fact led to another, until a coherent picture began to emerge from the immense pile of puzzle pieces…. That picture includes the background of Harvey as a juvenile immigrant fluent in Russian, and the creation of the second ‘Lee Harvey Oswald’ and the second ‘Marguerite Oswald.’ The picture continues with the recruitment of both Lee Oswald and Harvey Oswald by the ONI and the CIA, followed by Harvey’s assumption of Lee’s identity, his ‘defection’ to Russia, and Lee’s involvement with the Cuban revolution and the CIA..…”

Mistaken Identity

From the publisher’s blurb:  "New forensic and evidentiary material not published, proves that two individuals known as "Lee Harvey Oswald" enlisted in the U.S. Marines in 1956 using the same birth certificate. Recent genealogical research identifies them as second cousins through intermarriage of second-generation French families in New Orleans. It created a nightmare of identity for the FBI."

When people here tell you "Harvey and Lee" has all been debunked and that nobody believes it, don't believe them.

[John Butler]

39 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

When people here tell you "Harvey and Lee" has all been debunked and that nobody believes it, don't believe them.

Well said Jim,

I usually don't answer comments from Jonathan and Jeremy.  I made a copy of your comment in Word.  I may, if you don't mind, use this to answer whenever my anti-fans make those kind of remarks. 

By just about any standard of proof one would have to come to the conclusion there were two Oswalds at the TSBD.  And, furthermore the two men looked very much alike so that witnesses to two different events agreed that the man at the two different events was identified as Lee Harvey Oswald (the Warren Commission version) and was the one shot at the DPD.  We call this Oswald, Harvey.  Then, the one who got into the Nash Rambler must have been Lee Oswald who Roger Craig identified as Lee Harvey Oswald (Harvey) the man he saw at the DPD. 

It gets confusing, but and this is a big but, Lee Harvey Oswald (as identified by the Warren Commission) can not have been in two places at once.  He could not be on Elm Street getting in a Rambler and riding in a bus and cab on other streets at the same time.    

[Michael Crane]

It's damn confusing.You kind of gotta believe an honest policeman like Craig to make a positive identification.With this identification comes the belief that Oswald must have called to be picked up,or the Rambler was there as planned.

[John Butler]

Michael,

If Roger Craig was not a super cop, then he was close to it.  He was all over the assassination scene directly after the assassination.  He ended up in the TSBD with the Mauser inches from his face.  

As I said earlier, he blew up the cover up.  But, very few think that way.  Which of the two Oswalds was on the 6th floor?  Or, were they not on the 6th floor, but doing other things.  I'm with Jesse Curry when he said he could never put Oswald on the 6th floor with a rifle in his hand.  There is good evidence to say that no one fired a shot from the 6th floor. 

What were two Oswalds doing at the TSBD?  One, Harvey I think was assigned to take photos of the parade.  That tied him to the TSBD so that he would later become the patsy.  The John Martin film shows him under the trees taking photos of the p. limo and then later as Prayer Man in Couch. 

Lee Oswald was at the TSBD.  Or, some one who looked like Lee and Harvey was there.  He may have been the one demonstrating to the public that there was an assassin on the 6th floor.  But, in my opinion he is the fellow in Altgens 6 known as Doorway Man disguised as Billy Lovelady. 

This is a bit of a stretch.  Harvey may have seen, from his position under the trees, Lee standing in the doorway of the TSBD talking to Bill Shelley.  This could be why he said he was standing out front talking to Bill Shelley when the p. limo went by.

A lot of this is speculation based upon facts from films, photos, witness statements, and researchers work into the JFKA.            

[Jim Hargrove]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

Well said Jim,

I usually don't answer comments from Jonathan and Jeremy.  I made a copy of your comment in Word.  I may, if you don't mind, use this to answer whenever my anti-fans make those kind of remarks. 

Feel free to do so, John, but please ad that the Ed Forum's Sandy Larsen has made several important contributions to H&L research and that John Armstrong has been a guest on Len Osanic's Black Op Radio at least a dozen times.