Chris Bristow Posted June 12, 2022 Share Posted June 12, 2022 Thank you Chris and Steven for the weighted average. I have never looked closely at the 3 second difference. I used to think the Wiegman image of the limo was problematic it would loose maybe 40 ft of travel down Elm if it slowed to 2mph for a couple seconds. But seeing the limo was going over 35 mph at the Wiegman position means the 40 ft difference is only about one second. not being able to come up with a dead accurate timing from head shot to Wiegman I have to assume the Wiegman position could represent the limo having slowed to 2mph. Chris: I think 133 to 485 should be about 468 ft. I get 430 ft from 133 to 471 and frame 485 puts the limo about 40 ft farther into the overpass if going 35 mph. I get 16.8 mph average speed. 353frames (133-486) 425ft 425/353 = 1.2ft per frame = 14.94mph 16.8 - 14.94 = 1.86 difference in our two estimates. 1.86 mph is 2.71 additional feet traveled per second. Over 20 seconds it adds 70 ft. Near the overpass the limo was moving at 50 feet per second so this small difference would account for half of the missing travel time down Elm. From frame 313 to 471 is 8.5 seconds. The 3 measurements on my chart from 313 to 471 add up to 8.38 seconds. 313 to 414 at 14 mph = 4.88sec. 414 to 454 at 25mph = 2.5sec. 454 to 471 at 38 mph = 1.0sec. Adding these 3 separately I don't need to do a weighted average of the 3 but each separate one would need to be adjusted. I.E. At 414 the speed is 14 mph but obviously it was moving slower at the start of that measurement at 313. The weighted average was one mph different than my estimate. I would assume the difference would be much less when calculating the weighted from 313 to 471 as that is when the limo was moving the fastest so it would drag the average down less. Does the 3 second difference you found apply to frames after 313 more than before 313? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 12, 2022 Share Posted June 12, 2022 (edited) Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; because we were able to determine the speed of the camera, and thereby accurately determine the length of time it takes for a specific number of frames to run through the camera at this 18.3 frames per second, and having located these frame positions in the street, we took the farthest distance point we had in the Zapruder film which was frame 161 through frame 313. This was found to run elapsed time from the film standpoint which runs at 18.3 frames a second, runs for a total of 8.3 seconds. This distance is 136.1 feet, and this can be calculated then to 11.2 miles per hour. Mr. SPECTER. Is that a constant average speed or does that speed reflect any variations in the movement of the car? Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is the overall average from 161 to 313. It does not mean that it was traveling constantly at 11.2, because it was more than likely going faster in some areas and slightly slower in some areas. It is only an average speed over the entire run. Mr. DULLES. Over the entire run between what points? Mr. SHANEYFELT. Between frame 161 and 313. Referring to my previous reference/posting of 14.94mph: Using this CE884 version which was never officially released for public consumption. z168-186 = 21.6ft/18frames = 1.2ft per frame = 14.94mph z168-171 = .3ft per frame = 3.74mph = Film doesn't show it 14.94mph - 3.74mph = 11.2mph = Shaneyfelt above Put into a different context and repeatedly stated: 10.2ft/.3ft per frame = 34 Zframes = 1.85seconds@18.3fps z133-z486 + 34 = 387frames Chris B's distance of 468ft 486 468ft/387frames = 1.209ft per frame = close enough 1.2ft per frame - .3ft per frame = .9ft per frame x 18.3frames = 16.47ft per sec / 1.47 = 11.2mph = See Shaneyfelt Edited June 12, 2022 by Chris Davidson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Lifton Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 (edited) On 6/10/2022 at 11:22 AM, Karl Kinaski said: A serious attempt to shot a film with Zappis cam from that pedestal to compare it's features with the odd features of the Zappi-assassination film was made by the ARRB 1997 --and sabotaged by certain members of the ARRB. Quote, David Lifton PIG ON LEASH 2003 (Douglas Horne Requests Test with Original Camera Doug Horne knew what needed to be done: that film should be run through the Zapruder camera, in a test conducted at Dealey Plaza, preferably when the lighting was the same, and such test film be compared with the Zapruder film. It didn’t take a photo expert to understand why this should be done: a match between the test film and the Zapruder film would be powerful evidence that the Zapruder film was a genuine original; contrariwise, any mismatch might be probabtive, even definitive, on the issue of whether the film in evidence was not taken by the Zapruder camera. Neither David Marwell nor Jeremy Gunn wanted to do any such tests. (WTF) Marwell looked with complete disdain at the notion that the Zapruder film might be a forgery. He said he had experience in college, either on the newspaper or in a photography club, with contact printing, and he just didn’t see how the film could be inauthentic. He kept bringing up the small size of an 8 mm film, saying: “You’d need engraving tools.” As Doug observed later, he simply failed to inform himself about optical editing technology. Gunn was a different matter. When Marwell left the ARRB, and the problem was passed to Gunn, the problem was political. Gunn did not have good relations with the five Board members, who—Doug tells me—thought of him as a closet assassination buff (and he was, in some ways). The Board members were essentially conservative, and Gunn knew they would never approve doing a test in Dealy Plaza; that their fear would be a New York Times headline, “ARRB Suspects Zapruder Film Forgery”. Doug thought their fears were completely exaggerated. It was well within the rights of the ARRB to investigate the provenance of any assassination record, and “record” could be more important that the visual record of the Zapruder film? When Marwell departed as Exec Director to take outside employment. Gunn became Exec Director as well as General Counsel. This was the autumn of 1997. One day, Doug locked horns with Gunn on this issue. “I insisted on a film test in Zapruder’s actual camera in Dealey Plaza on November 22 at 12:30 PM,” recalls Doug. Gunn was cold, austere, distant, even hostile. “What are your reasons for wanting to do this test?” he said. “Film authenticity,” replied Doug. “And I said that the best way to test inauthenticity would be to see if the intersprocket sprocket image looked the same or not as the intersprocket image on the film at the Archives. That’s exactly what I said.” “He then completely astounded me by saying ‘Can you give me a reason to conduct this test that has nothing to do with authenticitiy?’” “I was floored by his question,” recalls Doug, “And I said, I literally exploded: ‘I can’t believe you’re asking me that question. That’s ridiculous. The only reason to do this testis authenticity.’ Gunn said : “Let’s call Rollie and put it to a vote.” And so, right on the spot, he called Rollie Zavada: How did he feel about conducting such a test—using Abe’s camera, upon the white pedestal, on November 22, at 12:30 PM? “I’ve already shot test film in Zapruder type cameras,” replied Rollie, “and the only thing that Doug is proposing that’s any different is to do it on November 22, at 12:30 P.M. Then Rollie delivered the coup de grace: “I see no reason to do this test with Abe’s original camera; it would be good enough to use any camera of the same make and model.” “And at that point, I knew I’d lost,” recalls Doug. “I was devastated. Really, I was.” Gunn immediately. proposed a compromise. “We’ve got Tom Samoluk going to Dallas on other business around November 22 [1997]. Can you send us a Zapruder type camera filled with film, and we’ll conduct the test that Doug wants, which is to shoot it on 11/22 at 12:30 PM?” “And Rollie said, ‘Sure, I’ll do that.’ “They thought they were doing a good thing,” says Doug. “I was extremely disappointed, because: (1) A film pro wouldn’t be conducting the test; (2) it wouldn’t be Abe’s camera.” Doug says that he knew that if Zapruder’s actual camera wasn’t used, then whatever anomalies were discovered would be attributed to a camera-to-camera variation. “Those were all the things running through my mind, so I was very disappointed,” recalls Doug. But it wasn’t over—yet. Samoluk Goes to Dallas But let‘s return to Samoluk in November, 1997. It was November, 1997 when Samoluk went to Dallas, tasked with the job of taking pictures from Zapruder’s perch on November 22, something he really didn’t want to do, because Dealey Plaza can be a zoo on assassination anniversaries. Meanwhile, Rollie had sent a camera via Federal Express; it was loaded with film, and with directions, in a box to the ARRB in Washington; and now, in Dallas, Samoluk retired to his hotel room, and opened the box. He pulled out the camera, pressed the trigger, to make sure it would run, and nothing happened. He tried again. Nothing. Experimenting a bit in the hotel room, Samoluk became convinced that the camera was jammed, and gave up on the project. Upon returning to Washington, Doug ran over to him when he appeared at the ARRB offices, and asked excitedly (“like a puppy dog,” recalls Doug): “Did you conduct the test?” “With a sheepish look on his face,” recalls Doug, “he replied, ‘No, I didn’t, the friggin’ camera jammed.’” “What do you mean it jammed?” said Doug. “Well, either it jammed or the batteries were no good!”, replied Samoluk. “What do you mean, batteries?” said Doug, growing increasingly upset. “This camera doesn’t have batteries, you wind it with a big gigantic key that is on the side of the camera.” “And his jaw dropped open, his eyes got big, he got this ‘oh dooky’ look on his face.” Doug called Rollie and confirmed that there were no batteries, and that Rollie had not wound the camera before he sent it to the Review Board. Rollie had sent a long list of operating instructions; but nowhere did it say ”Wind the camera.” “This was keystone cops, man, USG style,” says Doug, reflecting on the experience. Close quote Karl Kinaski - thanks for posting this, from my 2003 essay "Pig on a Leash." The error made by Samoluk --and the level of incompetence it implied --was truly astonishing. The account you describe (i.e., the failure to wind the camera, etc.) is identical to what Doug Horne described to me, years ago. So. . kudos for your excellent reporting. Let me now add my own personal experience . Years later, I met Samoluk --as I shall describe in this post -- and he did not come off in any way as sinister. His was simply an absurd error. Also, he was not a "technical" kind of fellow. He was --per his bio on the Internet-- a former Asst. Atty. General of Massachusetts, and today occupies a high level executive position at John Hancock Insurance. But now back to Doug Horne, how we first met, and some other data re the ARRB. FYI: I first met Doug Horne when he was employed by the Navy and stationed at Pearl Harbor. A friend who ran a major Honolulu law firm arranged for me to give a lecture at (or sponsored by) alumni from his Hawaii prep school-- the Punahou School -- the same upscale Honolulu prep school that Obama (later) attended. At the end of my talk, and during the Q & A, a fellow came forward from the audience, with a copy of Best Evidence, and asked me to sign it. He said his name was Doug Horne, and was in the Navy, stationed at Pearl Harbor. He told me he had heard about the proposed creation of the ARRB, and was going to attempt to seek employment there. I thought that was great, and said so. "Let me know how it turns out", I said. Some months later, the phone rang (in my West L.A. apartment). It was Doug. "I'm in Washington," he said. "I got hired!" Really?! Yes, he was hired, but -- get this --none of his expenses (traveling from Honolulu to Washington) had been paid for by the USG. Not one dime. Doug had paid for it all out of his own pocket. Travel from Honolulu to D.C. That was how serious he was about landing a position on the ARRB (and how meager their resources were that Doug paid for his own move from Honolulu, Hawaii, to Washington, D.C.) Meanwhile, hearings were about to start and, as I recollect -- a key issue was going to be the integrity (read "authenticity") of the Zapruder film. "Doug, let's stay in touch!" I said. "Call me regularly! I'm going to put a recorder on my phone. Call me anytime anything of significance occurs. Let's record all the conversations. We'll have the makings of an oral history of the ARRB!" And so it was: The phone would ring, it would be Doug Horne, and it often began with Doug saying, in a doleful tone, "You won't believe what happened today." I'd turn on the recorder, and off we went. The Oral History (we tried to create) I remember one very hectic phone call when Marwell (who was a serious devotee of Gerald Posner) or Gunn (who was open to conspiracy, although it seemed to depend on what side of the bed he awoke, each morning) decided they were going to need serious technical assistance if they were going to "authenticate" the Zapruder film. Focusing on Kodak, Doug had ended up in contact with Rollie Zavada. He wanted a memo from me, listing the key issues to be explored--to show Gunn (as I recall). The purpose, to get the necessary funds authorized. I provided a brief list of the specifics ("car stop" witnesses, etc), Doug wrote the required memo, and then steered it through the bureaucratic complexities. The money was authorized, and that's how Rollie Zavada came to be hired. Several times a week, Doug would call with a detailed account of what was happening; and so I ended up with shoe-boxes full of audio cassettes documenting my own "back channel" during this crucial period. For those who may not remember: the "life" of the ARRB (as distinguished from the "JFK Records Act") extended from 1995 - 1998. I have notes and audio recordings pertaining to this period. There are two memories I'd like to relate here. The first concerns Samoluk. Thomas E. Samoluk (aka "Samoluk") He came out to SoCal (on ARRB business) and called me to have lunch. I suggested "Back-on-the- Beach- Cafe," a restaurant actually built out on the beach, in north Santa Monica. Some 75 feet away was the Santa Monica "bike path", a 10 mile concrete ribbon extending from Malibu (to the north), to Venice Beach (to the south). On that bright sunny day -- and that certainly fit the description of the day I met with Samoluk-- it was populated with attractive beauties, roller-blading to the north and south, on that concrete bike path. "Yes, I often come up here, with my laptop, and just sit and work," I told Samoluk, who was from Boston, where it was rainy much of the time. What I remember most is Samoluk, sitting there in this beachfront paradise, fixated by the scene of these beautiful women, whizzing by on rollerblades, as we discussed the ARRB, and the question of the authenticity of the Zapruder film. Groden and the two checks for (a total of) $5,000 Regarding my "second" memory: the ARRB was holding public hearings (circa 1995, approx), and I thought it would be a good idea to draft a plainly written "technical memo" explaining what "optical printing" was all about, so the reader would have a basic understanding of how "film forgery" would (i.e., might) work. ASIDE: I had educated myself on this subject by going to the film library at UCLA's Melnitz Hall (the UCLA "film school.") That's where I learned all about "optical printers," the basic tool necessary to alter motion picture film. END ASIDE So I drafted the memo, which dealt with the matter in a carefully written, elementary style, one purpose being to demystify "film alteration," and get past all the hocus-pocus of Robert Groden, with whom I had visited many times (at his home), and who maintained that the Zapruder film could not possibly be a forgery. (He would never loan me a good copy of his Nix film, even though I paid him $5,000, a sum raised via contributions from several JFK researchers). I used to carry photocopies of the $5000 (in the form of two $2500 cancelled checks) and joked that I did so to prove--should I appear opposite Groden on some TV program and he were to claim otherwise--that I actually paid Groden that money; but was careful not to even provide him xerox copies of the two checks, because he might try to cash them (joke!). But now back to the ARRB. . . My initiation to Optical Printers (and the matter of "splitting" a 16mm film, to get the 8mm format) My memo focused on something very elementary, but was not necessarily known if you didn't own a home movie camera: how an 8mm film was "one half" of what was actually a 16mm film etc. I sent copies to those conducting the investigation, my goal being to explain how optical printing worked. And that as long as the film was remained "unslit," it could be treated as a 16mm film, and then (by dealing with the right or left "half,") be put on a standard optical printer (e.g., an Oxberry printer) and edited; i.e., "optically edited." Anyway, I was in my apartment, with the TV on, when federal judge John Tunheim, who was chairing that day's public hearing, gave his opening remarks, and then said (approx.): "And I would like to thank David Lifton, for sending our staff his memo on the Zapruder film". "You could have knocked me over with a feather," (as the saying goes). To recap: I always felt good about the ARRB. I knew I could write to Tunheim, if I wished. And of course I was staying in regular touch with Doug Horne, who more than once said that I was like a "sixth" member of the Board. When the ARRB wrote its Report, I reviewed some of the galleys. Doug was generous in giving me credit; but Gunn, who was completely schizophrenic on the issue of whether there was a high level plot (and very concerned about appearances) took out his blue pencil and deleted roughly half the references to me. Quite a few remained, but there would have been many more, if Gunn hadn't taken out his blue pencil and deleted many of them. There is much else to relate, when time permits. I would like to obtain a copy of that video clip, if anyone can locate it. DSL , 6/18/22 - 11:10 PM, PDT Edited June 19, 2022 by David Lifton Improve clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 @David Lifton So you say Samoluk was not playing the fool by pretending he can't tell a cam with batteries from a cam you have to wind up with a wind up key but a genuine fool? I don't believe it. In the first place: Whoever gave Samulok the Zapruder Type cam why did he not told Samoluk: "That is a type of cam you have to wind up" and why didn't they provide Samoluk with the wind up key to wind up that cam? The reason why we don't have a Zapruder-reference-film shot by a Zapruder-type -cam to compare it's features with the features of the Zappi-film is ARRB's Samoluk playing the fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 3 hours ago, Karl Kinaski said: @David Lifton So you say Samoluk was not playing the fool by pretending he can't tell a cam with batteries from a cam you have to wind up with a wind up key but a genuine fool? I don't believe it. In the first place: Whoever gave Samulok the Zapruder Type cam why did he not told Samoluk: "That is a type of cam you have to wind up" and why didn't they provide Samoluk with the wind up key to wind up that cam? Karl, the camera didn't need a separate key to wind it up. It had a built in lever at the side of it that you used to wind it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 (edited) @ Ray Mitcham ... thx for the clarification ...to me that makes Samoluks actions look even more suspicious ... it escapes me why the ARRB wasn't sending him down to Dallas a second time to do his job which was to wind up the camera, climb "Zapruders pesdestal and film ... not a very complicated task ... Edited June 20, 2022 by Karl Kinaski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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