Did Ruth Paine knowingly refuse to inform Oswald of a Trans Texas Airways better job? No. Another baseless smear.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

4 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

As a result, there is legitimate reason to suspect that Paine never passed on Adams’ message to Oswald and that the WC was doing damage control. 

It doesn't make any difference about the message because the whole argument goes nowhere. According to CTs, the purpose of her withholding the information about the better job was to make sure LHO remained at the TSBD. But as DVP points out in the other thread, in addition to the problems with the coffee klatch theory you have the fact that Ruth could not have known on October 15 that the motorcade would go by the TSBD. Therefore, she had no motive to withhold information even if she had it.

The coffee klatch and the realities of the motorcade defeat the notion that Ruth "placed" LHO in the TSBD for most. I believe Morley is working on a theory that concedes LHO got a job there by chance and works from there although I don't know where he is going with it. It makes more sense anyway.

[Tom Gram]

9 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

It doesn't make any difference about the message because the whole argument goes nowhere. According to CTs, the purpose of her withholding the information about the better job was to make sure LHO remained at the TSBD. But as DVP points out in the other thread, in addition to the problems with the coffee klatch theory you have the fact that Ruth could not have known on October 15 that the motorcade would go by the TSBD. Therefore, she had no motive to withhold information even if she had it.

The coffee klatch and the realities of the motorcade defeat the notion that Ruth "placed" LHO in the TSBD for most. I believe Morley is working on a theory that concedes LHO got a job there by chance and works from there although I don't know where he is going with it. It makes more sense anyway.

Not necessarily Tracy. As pointed out by Greg Parker, Ruth could have just decided that since Oswald already had a job it wasn't necessary to tell him about the call from the TEC - and basically just interfered with his business. https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2587-the-baggage-handler-job-was-info-withheld-from-lee-about-this-position

There is some precedent for that kind of behavior e.g. Ruth reading Oswald's private note to the Soviet Embassy, and destroying Oswald's mail after the assassination while he was still alive, both of which come with some pretty compelling evidence that she later lied to the FBI, or the FBI covered for her, to make herself look better - which doesn't necessarily mean that the act itself was anything nefarious. That's without even mentioning Marina. 

This could have been the same kind of thing, an innocent mistake that was subsequently covered up because it made Ruth look bad. The point isn't really Ruth's motive, it's that the evidence suggests that the allegation itself might actually be true. As for the coffee klatch, I posted an interesting essay by John Manning on the topic in the other thread, and I'm not sure that a specific motorcade route would need to be known for someone to want to put Oswald in a building overlooking Dealey Plaza. It seems that once the Dallas trip was announced, it would be reasonable to assume the "tour" would go through that area. 

I don't think that a conspiracy and Oswald getting the TSBD job randomly are mutually exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. It could have been more opportunistic than that, but for the reasons (along with several others) that I mentioned to David in the other thread, I really don't think that the opportunist was Oswald. That is just my opinion. I appreciate your cordial attitude and do read your articles, even though I often - but not always - don't agree with your analysis. 

 

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Greg,

I finally watched the documentary. I will tell you that there is at least one prevarication i am aware of. She asked Max Goode why Oliver Stone never referred to Michael or her in JFK (he used the "williams" for the paines). she claims Stone never contacted her. 

I had Stone in 1963 at the 50th anniversary conference held by the Wecht Institute why he used real names for all of the participants except for the Paines. He told me the reason was that the Paines threatened to sue him and the production company if they used their names. 

Clearly there was communication between the Paines and the movie production team. To say that she was never contacted or spoke to Stone (directly or indirectly) would not seem to be accurate.  

I also think she has some "tells" when she is not being frank with interviewers. I'll be interested if others.  

Just to be clear, I agree with Bill Simpich that the Paines' were not witting accomplices in any conspiracy. But given her patriotism (which was evident in the documentary), I would not be surprised that if she was asked to befriend Marina by a government contact, she would have done so without question. -IMHO 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

The point isn't really Ruth's motive, it's that the evidence suggests that the allegation itself might actually be true.

No, her motive is the point, at least as far as most CTs are concerned and I agree with them. They believe she withheld the job information to keep LHO at the TSBD. You may not believe that or be concerned about it, but they do and are. If she withheld the information from LHO (I don't believe she did) because she figured he had a job and best to leave it alone considering his instability-so what? It was a benign motive and nothing to do with anything.

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

As for the coffee klatch, I posted an interesting essay by John Manning on the topic in the other thread, and I'm not sure that a specific motorcade route would need to be known for someone to want to put Oswald in a building overlooking Dealey Plaza. It seems that once the Dallas trip was announced, it would be reasonable to assume the "tour" would go through that area. 

No. The traditional route was down Main Street. The motorcade only went to Houston and Elm because of the decision to have the luncheon at the Trade Mart. And that was not confirmed until November 15th. Another building was considered for the luncheon and the motorcade would not have needed to pass the TSBD if that location were used. The only way for theorists to defeat this is to say there were several patsies in varying locations to cover all the possibilities. This adds complexity to the plot and increases the chance of failure.

Speaking of adding complexity, the Manning article does that in spades. His six degrees of separation type theory adds several more conspirators to the plot including Frazier, Pauline Bates and several others. I didn't find it credible, but some may. 

2 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

I appreciate your cordial attitude and do read your articles

Thank you.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

5 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

He told me the reason was that the Paines threatened to sue him and the production company if they used their names. 

That's not a prevarication. That's called "he said she said."

6 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

I would not be surprised that if she was asked to befriend Marina by a government contact, she would have done so without question. -IMHO 

If you are saying that all she did was befriend Marina so what if that is true? Like Bugliosi said, it doesn't go anywhere. If you think she did more then you think she was in on it.

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Tracy,

Any motorcade through Dallas was going to go down Main Street. that was the traditional motorcade route in dallas. The motorcade would go through through Dealey Plaza. Jerry Bruno wanted the luncheon to be at the Women’s Building. If that had been the location, the motorcade would have continued down Main Street through Dealey Plaza. It was only when Connolly prevailed on the Trade Mart being the luncheon location that the route was altered. The Trade Mart was best accessed from the freeway. Since the freeway entrance was on Elm, it was the change of the luncheon location that caused a change in the motorcade route. 

So, the coffee klatch timing is really irrelevant. JFK could have been hit anywhere in Dealey Plaza-albeit the motorcade might be moving slightly more slowly on Elm rather than Main Street. The most important factor was to have LHO in the TSBD to serve as a patsy. He could not serve that role if he had accepted a high paying job elsewhere. 

I'd appreciate it if you might not dismissively refer to all of us as CTs. That term captures a full range of people  many of whom I would never associate with. There are many serious researchers who geniunely question the evidence supporting the lone gunman theory and- who like me- are not prone to otherwise endorse most conspiracy theories. We can have thoughtful conversations if we treat each other with respect.      

[W. Tracy Parnell]

33 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

If that had been the location, the motorcade would have continued down Main Street through Dealey Plaza. It was only when Connolly prevailed on the Trade Mart being the luncheon location that the route was altered. The Trade Mart was best accessed from the freeway. Since the freeway entrance was on Elm, it was the change of the luncheon location that caused a change in the motorcade route. 

I agree. But there is a big difference between the motorcade going right by the TSBD and continuing down Main as far as blaming the assassination on LHO. Makes more sense if the motorcade is right below him.

36 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

I'd appreciate it if you might not dismissively refer to all of us as CTs.

I call those who believe in the lone assassin theory LNs (stands for "lone nutter" which is not that complimentary sounding) and those who believe that a conspiracy killed LHO as CTs (since they believe in at least some conspiracy theories). No disrespect intended.

[Tom Gram]

2 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

No, her motive is the point, at least as far as most CTs are concerned and I agree with them. They believe she withheld the job information to keep LHO at the TSBD. You may not believe that or be concerned about it, but they do and are. If she withheld the information from LHO (I don't believe she did) because she figured he had a job and best to leave it alone considering his instability-so what? It was a benign motive and nothing to do with anything.

No. The traditional route was down Main Street. The motorcade only went to Houston and Elm because of the decision to have the luncheon at the Trade Mart. And that was not confirmed until November 15th. Another building was considered for the luncheon and the motorcade would not have needed to pass the TSBD if that location were used. The only way for theorists to defeat this is to say there were several patsies in varying locations to cover all the possibilities. This adds complexity to the plot and increases the chance of failure.

Speaking of adding complexity, the Manning article does that in spades. His six degrees of separation type theory adds several more conspirators to the plot including Frazier, Pauline Bates and several others. I didn't find it credible, but some may. 

Thank you.

I definitely do not agree that it doesn't matter if Ruth had a benign motive. If the government assisted in covering up that she withheld information from Oswald to make her look better and preserve her credibility as a witness, that doesn't really reflect too well on Ruth and the WC, and calls into question their overall motives - not that there isn't enough evidence to question their motives already.

Honest question: would it be legitimately impossible for someone to shoot JFK from the TSBD if the motorcade headed down Main St. - or shoot him from somewhere else and pretend that it came from the TSBD?

This is pure speculation, but let's say that the answer is no, it wouldn't be possible. Oswald gets the TSBD randomly as the WC described, and the plotters realize they have a guy they can use in the vicinity of the motorcade. Does it not make more sense for the plotters to: a) influence the motorcade route if possible (inside man); or (b) just abort mission and try again somewhere else if they can't engineer a scenario where they can pin the crime on their guy in the TSBD? If there were prior plots against JFK, and there is evidence suggesting that there were, along with evidence for potential patsies, something like this would be a reasonable assumption for why those plots didn't succeed. Contingency planning for an assassination plot on a President is just common sense. Also, if you look into the history of operations by the CIA etc., complexity isn't exactly hard to find.  

Lastly, what I find interesting about the Manning essay is that he actually puts forth a coherent theory that is the kind of social engineering you would expect from a real intelligence operation. Yes some of the connections have a few degrees of separation, but that's really all you'd expect to uncover from this kind of thing - and some of what Manning uncovered is not so simple to comfortably write off as coincidence. Also, the theory doesn't really "add several more conspirators to the plot" - the stuff about Bates was regarding Oswald's defection, Frazier is proposed as someone who was manipulated unwittingly, etc. I'd need a lot more evidence to really believe Manning's theory, but his essay was very well researched and proposes a plausible mechanism for Oswald being maneuvered into the TSBD - if that's actually what happened. 

[Kirk Gallaway]

Hi Tom, Thanks  for your correction on Kitrell. Her testimony does seem a little more like a woman, which I guess is a safe thing to say in a largely male forum.

ha ha  But she's certainly talks as if she's discreet about who she's talking to..

 

Tom, re Adams: at which time Oswald was referred to Trans-Texas for a job as a cargo handler at $310 per month” Only in his affidavit nine months later does he say that he only requested a callback. He also says that he learned at 10:30 a.m. the next morning that Oswald was employed. 

I would say he did request only a callback, and attribute the change that he had, to a moment of discretion and thought he better be more clear about what he said and not cast aspersions. I wouldn't see that as any evidence he's being "coached" or threatened. Not to say, you're saying that.

 

"All I’m saying is that available evidence is legitimately ambiguous."

 

I agree, Call it incident #506 where a lead could have been pursued and  a better line of questioning could have been followed.

 

It's interesting, another chokepoint, (or maybe coaching moment) for those who believe of a greater Ruth involvement when she had the power to direct where LHO would be working from the slings of employment fate.

 

For me at least, It comes from a time period where there was a lot written about Ruth as  deliberate, heavy handed and manipulative  which leads to the idea of  strong instruction, strong motive and involvement.

 

The lead in  allegation is to ask why didn't Ruth forward the job opportunity to Lee on his first day of employment at the TSBD? I'd probably say maybe  she was grateful the job search is over and Lee will at last be able to support his wife. Bird in the hand. Hasn't anybody here who did a service for someone over time, been relieved when that favor is over?

 

Hasn't this Ruth Quaker thing been taken a bit too far? Oh that's right! That Quaker thing is just a front anyway? heh heh

I don't mean to be glib. Shame her if you must, but most people act out of some sense of expediency. But she's somehow supposed to be so virtuous, she'd never get fed up with doing self abnegating service for Lee?

 

Then she gets  uncomfortable under interrogation when her neglect has been made into a motive.

I know it sounds very unwitting. That's just another possible  explanation.

 

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Hi Tom, Thanks  for your correction on Kitrell. Her testimony does seem a little more like a woman, which I guess is a safe thing to say in a largely male forum.

ha ha  But she's certainly talks as if she's discreet about who she's talking to..

 

Tom, re Adams: at which time Oswald was referred to Trans-Texas for a job as a cargo handler at $310 per month” Only in his affidavit nine months later does he say that he only requested a callback. He also says that he learned at 10:30 a.m. the next morning that Oswald was employed. 

I would say he did request only a callback, and attribute the change that he had, to a moment of discretion and thought he better be more clear about what he said and not cast aspersions. I wouldn't see that as any evidence he's being "coached" or threatened. Not to say, you're saying that.

 

"All I’m saying is that available evidence is legitimately ambiguous."

 

I agree, Call it incident #506 where a lead could have been pursued and  a better line of questioning could have been followed.

 

It's interesting, another chokepoint, (or maybe coaching moment) for those who believe of a greater Ruth involvement when she had the power to direct where LHO would be working from the slings of employment fate.

 

For me at least, It comes from a time period where there was a lot written about Ruth as  deliberate, heavy handed and manipulative  which leads to the idea of  strong instruction, strong motive and involvement.

 

The lead in  allegation is to ask why didn't Ruth forward the job opportunity to Lee on his first day of employment at the TSBD? I'd probably say maybe  she was grateful the job search is over and Lee will at last be able to support his wife. Bird in the hand. Hasn't anybody here who did a service for someone over time, been relieved when that favor is over?

 

Hasn't this Ruth Quaker thing been taken a bit too far? Oh that's right! That Quaker thing is just a front anyway? heh heh

I don't mean to be glib. Shame her if you must, but most people act out of some sense of expediency. But she's somehow supposed to be so virtuous, she'd never get fed up with doing self abnegating service for Lee?

 

Then she gets  uncomfortable under interrogation when her neglect has been made into a motive.

I know it sounds very unwitting. That's just another possible  explanation.

 

Oh I totally agree, and mentioned the same thing in one of my comments to Tracy. If there was a benign motive and Ruth dissembled to make herself look better though, and the WC enabled it, I still think it’s significant since it diminishes Ruth’s credibility as a witness and reflects the WC’s ultimate goal of incriminating Oswald at the expense of the truth. There are other examples where I think that’s likely what happened - so I think it’s a perfectly plausible explanation for the available evidence. 

I also agree that Ruth should not be disparaged and/or accused of anything without proper evidence, but I don’t think she should be immune from scrutiny either. I haven’t said anything derogatory about her, or made any accusations in any of the current threads on the topic - nor do I have any firm beliefs about her involvement. The position I’ve been taking is that a lot of material defending her reflects a much more obvious bias than the critical material, which makes the critics seem a lot more reasonable. This thread is a perfect example. Instead of claiming that Ruth 100% told Oswald about the job and that to suggest otherwise is a baseless smear, why not acknowledge that the allegation actually has genuine merit but that there might be a benign explanation for the incident getting covered up?