Lee Oswald - The Cop-Killer

[Greg Doudna]

18 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

You are simply trying way too hard to link those prints to Tippit's killer. There's no real reason to believe the prints belong to the killer. None whatsoever.

The prints belong to the same person.  No one saw the killer touch the right front fender.  Therefore, other than your bias, there is no reason to believe the prints on the passenger door belong to the killer. 

You're entitled to your opinion. I think its just obvious those prints likely came from the killer. 

[David Von Pein]

43 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

...those prints likely came from the killer. 

That, of course, would be impossible, since we all know that the real killer (Oswald) had the Tippit murder weapon in his possession just 35 minutes after Tippit was slain.

Edited July 13, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Bill Brown]

48 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

You're entitled to your opinion. I think its just obvious those prints likely came from the killer. 

But you have no reason to believe that it's obvious that those prints came from the killer. 

[Greg Doudna]

8 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

That, of course, would be impossible, since we all know that the real killer (Oswald) had the Tippit murder weapon in his possession just 35 minutes after Tippit was slain.

The logic here is that non-fingerprints/non-Tippit cruiser information (that is, interpretation thereof) is brought to bear on interpretation of a specific fact (the Tippit cruiser fingerprints). I understand the reasoning. This is how paradigms work. You (like Myers who reported the Lutz fingerprint findings) believe it is settled fact that Oswald's revolver was the Tippit murder weapon, i.e. that Oswald was the killer. Therefore, you reason, no matter how much the fingerprints might look like they could be from the killer, the mental response is "that cannot be correct" and "there must be some other explanation"--because of other information and/or assumptions. I am not criticizing this reasoning as method in principle, just pointing out what is going on here.

In the present case I contest this "other information" you are assuming and which you bring to bear to interpret the present case, specifically the security of the belief that the Tippit murder weapon was Oswald's revolver which he had with him in the Texas Theatre. I have argued for a different way of looking at this, in which (a) the true Tippit murder weapon was the "paper bag revolver" found by a citizen on a downtown Dallas street on the morning of Sat Nov 23; and (b) the claim that the four shell hulls from the killer's revolver found at the Tippit crime scene were fired from Oswald's revolver is questionable (this is not a dispute of the accuracy of the FBI lab's findings or that the revolver was Oswald's). You may or may not have seen some of my argument on that. On the "paper bag revolver" as the Tippit murder weapon, see summary of my argument on that at second up from the bottom at https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27887-oswalds-light-colored-jacket/page/2/. On the Oswald revolver/Tippit crime scene shell hull ballistics see my piece, "Tippit Ballistics", https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27893-tippit-ballistics/. Also my piece, "The jackets as exculpation of Oswald as the Tippit killer: an analysis" at https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27754-the-jackets-as-exculpation-of-oswald-as-the-tippit-killer-an-analysis/.

 

[Bill Brown]

It should be noted that Jack Tatum has the killer with his hands in his jacket pocket as he leans over talking to Tippit through the window (no hands on the patrol car).

[James DiEugenio]

We all know eh?

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/why-officer-tippit-stopped-his-killer

[Bill Brown]

"He can bitch and holler all he wants to, but that's the man I saw running from the scene." - William Scoggins

(Jim Leavelle interview with Dale Myers)

[James DiEugenio]

Who did Scoggins see?

From an FBI report dated November 25th:

Mr. W. W. SCOGGINS, 3138 Alaska, employed as a taxicab driver for the Oak Cliff Cab Company, was reinterviewed.  He stated that on November 22, 1963 he had observed an individual in the vicinity where Dallas Patrolman TIPPIT was shot shortly after the assassination of President KENNEDY.

Mr. SCOGGINS stated after viewing a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, he could not be sure the person he had observed in Oak Cliff on November 22, 1963, was actually identical with LEE HARVEY OSWALD.

 

on 11/25/63 at Dallas , Texas, File DL 89-43-1716

by Special Agent Richard T. Rabideau.                     Date dictated 11/25 63                        

[Bill Brown]

33 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Who did Scoggins see?

From an FBI report dated November 25th:

Mr. W. W. SCOGGINS, 3138 Alaska, employed as a taxicab driver for the Oak Cliff Cab Company, was reinterviewed.  He stated that on November 22, 1963 he had observed an individual in the vicinity where Dallas Patrolman TIPPIT was shot shortly after the assassination of President KENNEDY.

Mr. SCOGGINS stated after viewing a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, he could not be sure the person he had observed in Oak Cliff on November 22, 1963, was actually identical with LEE HARVEY OSWALD.

 

on 11/25/63 at Dallas , Texas, File DL 89-43-1716

by Special Agent Richard T. Rabideau.                     Date dictated 11/25 63                        

Right. The Oswald in the photo shown to him, likely the New Orleans booking photo, did not look identical to the disheveled Oswald he saw running with a gun in Oak Cliff. However, the disheveled Oswald he saw running with a gun in Oak Cliff did look like the Oswald in the lineup.

[James DiEugenio]

You are funny as all get out Bill. 😀

Just what Pat warned you about, imitating McAdams.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

The totality of the evidence says that Oswald was not there.

No one, running or walking, could have made it there from the rooming house at the real time Tippit was killed. Which is why the Commission had to push it back.

The following article is still one of the highest rated essays at Kennedys and King.  Even though it is not remotely new.

No one can talk about the Tippit case today and not mention Croy, Westbrook and also Mentzel and Nelson (See McBride, Into the Nightmare, pp. 428-31)

 

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-tippit-case-in-the-new-millennium

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Bill Brown]

29 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

The totality of the evidence says that Oswald was not there.

No one, running or walking, could have made it there from the rooming house at the real time Tippit was killed. Which is why the Commission had to push it back.

The following article is still one of the highest rated essays at Kennedys and King.  Even though it is not remotely new.

No one can talk about the Tippit case today and not mention Croy, Westbrook and also Mentzel and Nelson (See McBride, Into the Nightmare, pp. 428-31)

 

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-tippit-case-in-the-new-millennium

 

Oswald left the rooming house around 1:00 p.m. 1:01 p.m., maybe 1:02 p.m. Earlene Roberts said he was back in his room "just long enough to grab a jacket". Tippit was shot around 1:14 p.m. to 1:15 p.m.; plenty of time to get there on foot.

[Gene Kelly]

Bill

Not sure if you read the article by Jack Meyers in Kennedys and King, but he characterizes the eyewitness testimony as:

If the ballistics evidence in the Tippit case could rightly be characterized as messy, then the eyewitness testimony regarding the Tippit homicide would have to be labeled a toxic waste site by comparison.

A better storyline for your production company would be to get Joe Pesci to do a remake of "My Cousin Vinny" and have him interview the four questionable witnesses against Oswald in the Tippit murder: William Scoggins, Ted Calloway, Helen Markham, and the delinquent/incredible Jack Ray Tatum.  I can just see the late Fred Gwynne's facial expressions, as defense counsel Vinny deconstructs their stories. 

Gene 

[James DiEugenio]

GK: A better storyline for your production company would be to get Joe Pesci to do a remake of "My Cousin Vinny" and have him interview the four questionable witnesses against Oswald in the Tippit murder: William Scoggins, Ted Calloway, Helen Markham, and the delinquent/incredible Jack Ray Tatum.  I can just see the late Fred Gwynne's facial expressions, as defense counsel Vinny deconstructs their stories. 

😀

And to think Dale M used Tatum as his key witness. Live on TV. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

I don't think Bill realizes that the work of Joe McBride on the Tippit case set a new plateau.

Joe's work on Nelson and Mentzel blew Dale M into a tizzy.

Oh, and to Bugliosize Bill means to do something like this: read the HSCA report on the Ruby polygraph--which exposes it as an FBI hoax--and use all of four lines from a 21 page report.  Not mentioning the most important discoveries that reveal it to be a hoax.  That is what VInce did throughout his doorstop of a book.  Which I tore to shreds. 

Well, that is what you are doing with the Tippit case.  It won't fly here.

Edited July 14, 2022 by James DiEugenio