Lee Oswald - The Cop-Killer

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Helen Markham didn't lie about the time because she wasn't tricked or coached when telling about it. But she was tricked into picking Oswald in the lineup, and that surely explains her being unreliable with her testimony regarding that.

So you say. I again say Hogwash!

Edited July 19, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The witnesses have no reason to lie but the government does.

Does your above statement therefore mean that you don't  think any of these non-Government people I mentioned earlier told any lies in connection with the JFK & Tippit murder cases? ---

Roy Truly, Marrion Baker, Buell Frazier, Linnie Mae Randle, Howard Brennan, Ted Callaway, Ruth Paine, Michael Paine, and Marina Oswald.

Remember, Sandy, you just said "The witnesses have no reason to lie."

Edited July 19, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Helen Markham didn't lie about the time because she wasn't tricked or coached when telling about it. But she was tricked into picking Oswald in the lineup, and that surely explains her being unreliable with her testimony regarding that.

 

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

So you say. I again say Hogwash!

 

So you think she was just a ditzy woman? (I mean, have you read her WC testimony regarding the lineup? It's hilarious!)

I don't think she was ditzy, I think she was pressured.

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

It's no worse than what you do David. Except you say it is the witnesses who are wrong.

 

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Many witnesses were wrong about many things. But that's a whole lot different than accusing the witnesses of lying.

CTers have a list of  l i a r s  as long as my arm -- e.g., Truly, Baker, Frazier, Randle, Humes, Boswell, Brennan, Callaway, the Paines, Marina, and many others.

 

Those aren't l.i.a.r.s David... they are patriots helping to save their country from nuclear war. It's just that they have to tell lies to do it.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Does your above statement therefore mean that you don't  think any of these non-Government people I mentioned earlier told any lies in connection with the JFK & Tippit murder cases? ---

Roy Truly, Marrion Baker, Buell Frazier, Linnie Mae Randle, Howard Brennan, Ted Callaway, Ruth Paine, Michael Paine, and Marina Oswald.

Remember, Sandy, you just said "The witnesses have no reason to lie."

Generally speaking, the witnesses had no reason to lie unless asked to do so by government officials in order to protect the United States.

If a witness said something that didn't help the government's coverup, then we know he probably didn't lie.

 

 

[David Von Pein]

36 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Those aren't l.i.a.r.s David... they are patriots helping to save their country from nuclear war. It's just that they have to tell lies to do it.

Oh for Pete sake. You can't possibly believe such nonsense.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Those aren't l.i.a.r.s David... they are patriots helping to save their country from nuclear war. It's just that they have to tell lies to do it.

 

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Oh for Pete sake. You can't possibly believe such nonsense.

 

I absolutely believe it.

Early reports coming from Mexico City were that Oswald was involved in a conspiracy with the Russians and Cubans to assassinate JFK. The Johnson Administration was afraid that those reports would become public. Which surely was the prime motivation for the early forms of the Katzenbach Memo.

The Johnson Administration used the threat of WW3 to motivate others to help in covering up the (fake) conspiracy. This is something you should know.

 

[James DiEugenio]

Is Von Pein doing this now also?

The whole spaced out thing about calling someone  l i a r?

I really think that is dirty pool.  

Edited July 20, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Is Von Pein doing this now also?

The whole spaced out thing about calling someone  l i a r?

I really think that is dirty pool.  

Jim,

The rule in place here at this forum is that a member can't call ANOTHER FORUM MEMBER the L-word. Neither Bill nor I have done that. And you know it.

Plus, you yourself just now spaced out the L-word so it would be visible. Which is the same kind of allowable usage of the word that I have applied in my posts (and Bill Brown too).

IMO, the nitpicky efforts that some CTers are resorting to in order to try and get the LNers here into hot water with the moderators is laughable and silly.

Edited July 20, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Ian Lloyd]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/docid-32265274.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjh24nc2or5AhXJiVwKHezEAz44ChAWegQIGRAB&usg=AOvVaw3BxOrGzQsnG_ljtOW15F7a

 

Bowley linked to Ruby? Just for interest...

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Ian Lloyd

[Karl Hilliard]

On 7/9/2022 at 6:00 PM, Bill Brown said:

 
 
Barbara Davis was lying in bed inside her residence, which was the house at the
corner of Tenth and Patton.  She heard gunshots outside and went to the door.
She opened the screen door and noticed Helen
Markham across the street, screaming.  Davis then noticed a man cutting through
her front yard, holding a gun in his hands.  She testified that the man had the
gun cocked in his hands as if he were emptying it.  Barbara Davis positively
identified Lee Oswald as the man who she saw cut across her yard with a gun in
his hands.
 
 

Quote

Mr. BALL. Did he have a coat on when you saw him?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What color coat?
Mrs. DAVIS. A dark coat.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you recognize him from his face or from his clothes when you saw him in the lineup?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I looked at his clothes and then his face from the side because I had seen him from a side view of him. I didn't see him fullface.
Mr. BALL. Now answer the question. Did you recognize him from seeing his face or from his clothes?
Mrs. DAVIS. From his face because that was all I was looking at. 

  Apologies if this has all been posted.........

  Supposedly...Oswald had on a white jacket that was discarded later...supposedly.
 

Quote

 

Mr. DULLES. Did you know at the time he was emptying his gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. That is what I presumed because he had it open and was shaking it.

 

Why would an assailant continue to markedly wave their gun around while fleeing the scene of a shooting?

A S&W revolver is not emptied by 'shaking' it. Gun owners here know that fired shells are ejected with the cylinder rod.

Quote

  Mr. BALL. What about you? I am not talking about what you told them.
What was your reaction when you saw this man?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I was pretty sure it was the same man I saw. When they made him turn sideways, I was positive that was the one I seen.     

Mrs Davis was pretty sure that she was positive. Or was it she was positively pretty sure even though she didn't really see his face? One point I would like to emphasize is --Were there any changes in witness opinion between the events of the day and the official testimony? By the time Mrs Davis appeared..the case was already closed. Hoover had declared it closed 3 weeks after the assassination. Mrs Davis was free to tell the counsel whatever she thought he might want to hear. The news had been well pasted with Oswald's guilt. That did not influence her? ...Oswald's wife?...The Paines?...all the other witnesses?                                                                                                  

 

[Karl Hilliard]

Quote

Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald in the newspapers prior to the time you went to the police station lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I think I saw one in the morning paper.
Mr. BELIN. Do you subscribe to the morning or evening paper?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I take the evening paper myself.
Mr. BELIN. You went down and bought a morning paper?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I didn't go out. I was looking at one of the--some of the cab drivers had it.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any television picture on the morning of November 23 of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I have never until this day seen it.
Mr. BELIN. On television?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I never have.
Representative FORD. Do you have a television in your home?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes sir; I do. But I don't--when I get home I will read the paper, and after you work about 12 hours you don't feel like fooling around with television too much.
Mr. BELIN. What number man in the lineup did you identify as having seen on November 22?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Number 3.

Strange ...because earlier in his testimony Scoggins stated that he was a very interested TV watcher after hearing that JFK had been shot----

Quote

Mr. SCOGGINS....whenever I passed by, one of the guys hollered at me and asked me did I know the President had been shot, and I made the remark that I had not heard that one. I found a place to park and I came back, and he came back there in a couple of minutes and told me the facts about it. I thought it was some kind of a joke. So I had to go plumb up to the corner of 10th before I could find a parking place, and I parked right there on the corner and went back and got me a coke and watched the deal, watched the television.
Mr. DULLES. Would you speak a little louder, please; I can't quite hear.
Mr. SCOGGINS. I got me a coke and watched television for a few minutes, I would say 10, 12, 15 minutes, there, and went out to eat my lunch.
Mr. DULLES. What were you seeing on television?
Mr. SCOGGINS. The deal about the President getting assassinated;

      Who really believes that Mr Scoggins... after the events of the day... didn't curiously catch anything about anything on TV? I mean how did he even know that JFK had died? And furthermore claiming that he [I have never until this day seen it]... abstained from television viewing concerning the event for months prior to his testimony and saw not one single televised frame of Oswald? ----It was "too much to fool with"?

                                                                                    Yeah right.

[Bill Brown]

As for the revolver, Jim Leavelle briefly spoke with Oswald when Oswald was brought in from the theater.  Leavelle told Oswald that they could run ballistic tests on the revolver and match the revolver to the bullets taken from the officer's body, proving that the revolver taken from Oswald was the revolver responsible for the officer's death.  Oswald did not deny owning the revolver.  According to Leavelle, Oswald's only reply was "Well, you're just going to have to do it."

[Bill Brown]

As explained in by Dale Myers in With Malice, Oswald ordered the revolver under the name of A.J. Hidell on 1/27/63 from Seaport Traders, Inc.  Treasury Department handwriting expert Alwyn Cole testified that the handwriting on the order coupon belonged to Lee Oswald.  The FBI's handwriting expert James Cadigan also testified that the handwriting on the coupon was Oswald's.

On the order, there was the name of a D.F. Drittal, written in the section where a witness states that the person buying the weapon (Hidell) was a U.S. citizen and was not a felon.  The handwriting experts, Cole and Cadigan, both testified that the name D.F. Drittal was also written in Oswald's hands.

The revolver was shipped to a post office box in Dallas rented by Lee Oswald.  Cole testified that the signature and the handwriting on the post office box application belonged to Oswald.

Postal Inspector Harry Holmes testified that Oswald had previously rented a post office box in New Orleans, during the summer of 1963.  Oswald's New Orleans application and his Dallas application were found.  Unlike the Dallas post office box application, the New Orleans post office box application still had the portion which listed others who were able to receive mail at that post office box.  In the New Orleans application, Oswald included the names of both Marina Oswald and A.J. Hidell as those able to receive mail in that box.

Holmes spoke with Oswald on Sunday morning, the 24th.  Holmes asked Oswald about the Dallas post office box.  Oswald stated that he was the only one who received mail at that box and that he didn't receive any mail there that was addressed to any name other than his true name.  Holmes then asked Oswald about the box that Oswald rented in New Orleans earlier that year.  Oswald again stated that he was the only one permitted to receive mail at that p.o. box.  Holmes reminded Oswald that he (Oswald) had listed Marina Oswald as a person eligible to receive mail in that box.  Oswald's reply was basically "Well so what?  She was my wife and I see nothing wrong with that."  Holmes then reminded Oswald that one "A.J. Hidell" was also listed in the section on the application listing others eligible to receive mail in that post office box.  Holmes said that Oswald replied "I don't recall anything about that".

Oswald was caught in a lie.  The handwriting which permitted A.J. Hidell to receive mail at the New Orleans post office box belonged to Lee Oswald (per experts Cole and Cadigan).

[Ian Lloyd]

Bowley said he picked his daughter up from the R. L. Thornton school at 12:55. A quick look on Google maps, using a car, shows that the journey time is pretty much 15 minutes.