Orest Pena's HSCA Testimony

[David Boylan]

Pena's HSCA testimony was released as part of the 2017 batch of docs. It is one of the more enlightening and frustrating interviews that I've read. He takes you to the edge of some interesting revelations but then stops.

Of note:

- He throws FBI SA Warren DeBrueys under the bus. He states that he was DeBrueys' informant, and so was Oswald

- He hints that he also worked for the CIA as an asset/informant

- Captain David Ferrie was close to Carlos Bringuier and visited him many times

- Ferrie taught Pena how to fly

- Sergio Arcacha Smith and Ferrie were close.

-SAS also worked with Banister

- The Cuban Training Camp was key to who killed JFK

 

Plus some other interesting tidbits. Can be read here - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=148260#relPageId=6&search="orest_pena"

[James DiEugenio]

Dave:

 

What do you think of Pena?  You know Henry Hurt put some stock into him.  And I think Mellen said he was the key to the info about Oswald and Customs.

Do you buy DeBrueys and his excuse for dissing Pena?

I think DeBrueys was Hoover's boy in New Orleans.

[Tom Gram]

49 minutes ago, David Boylan said:

Pena's HSCA testimony was released as part of the 2017 batch of docs. It is one of the more enlightening and frustrating interviews that I've read. He takes you to the edge of some interesting revelations but then stops.

Of note:

- He throws FBI SA Warren DeBrueys under the bus. He states that he was DeBrueys' informant, and so was Oswald

- He hints that he also worked for the CIA as an asset/informant

- Captain David Ferrie was close to Carlos Bringuier and visited him many times

- Ferrie taught Pena how to fly

- Sergio Arcacha Smith and Ferrie were close.

-SAS also worked with Banister

- The Cuban Training Camp was key to who killed JFK

 

Plus some other interesting tidbits. Can be read here - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=148260#relPageId=6&search="orest_pena"

Malcolm Blunt speculates in his DPUK talks with Bart Kamp that the reason Pena's HSCA testimony was suppressed for so long is the segment regarding seeing Oswald in the company of David Smith from Customs, and Mr. "Rogue" (certainly Wendell Roache) from INS. I think Blunt is spot on. 

Q. Do you have any specific reasons which have led you to believe Oswald was an FBI Informant? For instance, did you ever see Oswald and de Brueys entering the restaurant together or leaving the restaurant together? 

A. I cannot say entering the restaurant but I saw Oswald and de Brueys, Mr. David Smith, Mr. Rogue (sic) from the Immigration Department and other government agents leaving the restaurant and going to the Customs House Building which at that time was an office for different kinds of government agencies. 

Roache in his initial phone call with the Church Committee said that he used to see Oswald "around all the time", and that he "had an office in..." before he was cut off by Paul Wallach and asked to come in. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ngkQhFjLVri9G5vNdhbFdNmvuWVXXcnW/view?usp=sharing

It appears that Roache subsequently changed his story and said that he only saw Oswald once passing out flyers. However, there is no way to know for sure what Roache really said, because the Church Committee testimonies of Orestes Pena, Wendell Roache, Ron Smith of INS (different guy than David from Customs, who was also interviewed but there is no proof that he actually testified, that I know of), and lead INS investigator Art Bero have all disappeared. I just mentioned the same topic in another thread. 

Basically everyone knows about the missing transcripts, but I agree with Blunt that it isn't really discussed enough, and is almost certainly the key to what Oswald was really up to in New Orleans. The CIA used Customs people as cut-outs (Cesar Diosado), and as noted by Blunt, the only time Warren DeBrueys stumbled and had his evasive rambling broken up in his Church Committee testimony is when the Committee mentioned David Smith. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1421#relPageId=32

Pena is the guy who kicked off the entire Church Committee investigation into INS/Customs in New Orleans. It sure as hell looks like he was telling the truth, IMO. If I could get a hold of just one missing transcript, I might choose the 12/15/75 testimony of Art Bero. There is nothing available on this guy's contacts with the Committee, but we know he testified - so I'd bet my lunch money that he said some really sensitive stuff. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Tom Gram

[David Boylan]

20 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Dave:

 

What do you think of Pena?  You know Henry Hurt put some stock into him.  And I think Mellen said he was the key to the info about Oswald and Customs.

Do you buy DeBrueys and his excuse for dissing Pena?

I think DeBrueys was Hoover's boy in New Orleans.

Jim,

I find Pena very credible for this testimony and for other reasons. Mellen would be right (See Tom's reply below).

[James DiEugenio]

Yes, this is what I thought happened Tom.  But you actually have the goods on it.

I really wonder if it was done by the Church Committee itself, or by the military escorts who worked on the committee.

I always thought that Schweiker and Hart were honest people.

But Gochenaur, one of the best interviews we did--and wait until you see what was cut out--showed me a whole different side to that committee.  He said that before and during his interview, there were as many as three military guys  escorting him.

[David Boylan]

Tom,

Bill Simpich had this to say:

Curiously, the evidence that Oswald collaborated with Customs is stronger than with any other agency. Cuban exile Orestes Pena testified that he saw Oswald chatting on a regular basis with FBI Cuban specialist Warren de Brueys, David Smith at Customs, and Wendell Roache at INS. Pena told the Church Committee that Oswald was employed by Customs. Informant Joseph Oster went farther, saying that Oswald's handler was David Smith at Customs. Church Committee staff members knew that David Smith "was involved in CIA operations". Orestes Pena's handler Warren DeBrueys admitted he knew David Smith. Oswald was also frequently seen with Juan Valdes, who described himself as a "customs house broker".

During January 1961, two FDC members named Joseph Moore and a man named "Oswald" went to a Ford outlet and requested the purchase of ten trucks to send to the Cuban exiles. Lee Oswald could not have been involved, as it was well-known that he had defected to the USSR. The use of Oswald's name was probably a convenient device that was considered useful if there was a need to "dirty" him up in the future.

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Oswald_Legend_9.html

[Tom Gram]

12 minutes ago, David Boylan said:

Tom,

Bill Simpich had this to say:

Curiously, the evidence that Oswald collaborated with Customs is stronger than with any other agency. Cuban exile Orestes Pena testified that he saw Oswald chatting on a regular basis with FBI Cuban specialist Warren de Brueys, David Smith at Customs, and Wendell Roache at INS. Pena told the Church Committee that Oswald was employed by Customs. Informant Joseph Oster went farther, saying that Oswald's handler was David Smith at Customs. Church Committee staff members knew that David Smith "was involved in CIA operations". Orestes Pena's handler Warren DeBrueys admitted he knew David Smith. Oswald was also frequently seen with Juan Valdes, who described himself as a "customs house broker".

During January 1961, two FDC members named Joseph Moore and a man named "Oswald" went to a Ford outlet and requested the purchase of ten trucks to send to the Cuban exiles. Lee Oswald could not have been involved, as it was well-known that he had defected to the USSR. The use of Oswald's name was probably a convenient device that was considered useful if there was a need to "dirty" him up in the future.

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Oswald_Legend_9.html

David, do you know what Simpich's source is for Joe Oster saying that David Smith was Oswalds handler? I really want to see that document if it exists. 

Jim, the initial decision to conceal certain information looks to have happened during the life of the Committee. The INS/Customs angle was basically the entire first phase of the JFK investigation, and references to some of the missing testimony were included in the rough drafts of the report. For the final draft however all of those references were removed. My guess would be that someone pressured the Committee on the grounds of national security, or to avoid "circumstantially implicating the CIA in conspiracy theories", or something like that.

I think all of the transcripts and evidence etc. were turned over to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence when the Church Committee shut down - and I doubt that any transcripts would have gone "missing" before that transfer. This is speculation but I'd guess there was some sort of editing process while the files were in the custody of the SSCI, where someone went through and sanitized the collection. 

If a new ARRB is ever formed, tracking down what happened to the transcripts should be priority number one, IMO.  

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks to you both, really good info.

See, this is one of my pet peeves about the ARRB.

Instead of guys like Wray and Quinn setting out to discredit JFK, this is what they should have been doing.

What happened to this stuff and were any one of these guys still alive?

[Stu Wexler]

I tried to find Roache. He is dead. I tried to find people who knew him and worked with him. Found one but he was not much help.

Weisberg has some stuff on Smith in his files. It seemed as if he showed up somewhere Weisberg was meeting a witness. The unfortunate thing is that David Smith is far too common a name.

Many years ago I did an old NARA online search for Customs/INS files. Many files appeared to have been destroyed.

Stu

[James DiEugenio]

Really disgusting.

You really wonder about the leadership of the ARRB.

Usually what you do when you have a database, is then you target.

That is what Marwell, and then Gunn were supposed to do.  Target and find out why what should be there is not.  

[Benjamin Cole]

Thanks to everyone on this thread, for the work involved. 

The fact that files disappear is disconcerting, to put it mildly. 

Well, Senator Schweiker said the fingerprints of intelligence were all over LHO. 

 

 

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Stu Wexler said:

I tried to find Roache. He is dead. I tried to find people who knew him and worked with him. Found one but he was not much help.

Weisberg has some stuff on Smith in his files. It seemed as if he showed up somewhere Weisberg was meeting a witness. The unfortunate thing is that David Smith is far too common a name.

Many years ago I did an old NARA online search for Customs/INS files. Many files appeared to have been destroyed.

Stu

Do you know if any of the investigators for the Hart-Schweiker Committee are still alive? I think I read somewhere that Paul Wallach is dead, who would probably know more than anyone, but I’m not sure if it was the same Paul Wallach. The only other name I know from the documents that was involved in the INS stuff is Dan Dwyer.  

Based on the surviving records, I bet the Committee interviewed and took testimony from a lot more INS and Customs people than we even know about. We have testimony dates for Roache, Smith (Ron), and Bero, but there was at least a staff interview with David Smith and Ted Baplas - an order to get Baplas on the record if anything of substance came out of it; and leads to interview a dozen or so more names. There is also no way in hell the Committee didn’t talk to the New Orleans INS Chief Clarence Johnson.

There should be contact reports, interview reports, investigative reports, testimony, etc. - everything you would expect from a real investigation, because it was a real investigation. The surviving documents even suggest that the Committee may have investigated the INS in Dallas:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vrZbOd359UXHOdj-hNen9LbuJJsJZkv9/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ngkQhFjLVri9G5vNdhbFdNmvuWVXXcnW/view?usp=drivesdk

It is not an exaggeration to say that the INS/Customs angle tipped off by Pena became the initial investigative phase of the Hart-Schweiker Committee. 

And the ARRB did nothing to find this stuff. 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Allen Lowe]

Am I incorrect, as I recall reading that Peña was beaten up for revealing so much?

[David Butler]

18 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

David, do you know what Simpich's source is for Joe Oster saying that David Smith was Oswalds handler? I really want to see that document if it exists. 

Jim, the initial decision to conceal certain information looks to have happened during the life of the Committee. The INS/Customs angle was basically the entire first phase of the JFK investigation, and references to some of the missing testimony were included in the rough drafts of the report. For the final draft however all of those references were removed. My guess would be that someone pressured the Committee on the grounds of national security, or to avoid "circumstantially implicating the CIA in conspiracy theories", or something like that.

I think all of the transcripts and evidence etc. were turned over to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence when the Church Committee shut down - and I doubt that any transcripts would have gone "missing" before that transfer. This is speculation but I'd guess there was some sort of editing process while the files were in the custody of the SSCI, where someone went through and sanitized the collection. 

If a new ARRB is ever formed, tracking down what happened to the transcripts should be priority number one, IMO.  

Tom....

According to this Joseph Oster was named by an informant number (rather than by name) in many files so that may be where the connection lies..

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/docid-32321972.pdf

[Tom Gram]

45 minutes ago, David Butler said:

Tom....

According to this Joseph Oster was named by an informant number (rather than by name) in many files so that may be where the connection lies..

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/docid-32321972.pdf

Thanks David. I’m familiar with Oster’s informant number, so I’ll look around. That’d be a pretty interesting document if Oster corroborated Pena and told the FBI in an informant report that Oswald’s handler was a Custom’s official. I have reason to believe that some of Oster’s colleagues may have been involved in some of this stuff, so I’d really like to see where Oster said that. 

EDIT: It looks like a reference to Smith being Oswald’s handler is in Joan Mellen’s book on Garrison. I don’t have the book but will buy the Kindle edition and check out the footnote.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Tom Gram