W. Tracy Parnell Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 JFK Files: FBI SA Robert M. Barrett and the Tippit Murder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 Totally convincing on the Barrett story of the Oswald wallet at the Tippit crime scene being insubstantial. Myers previously noted what can be verified by anyone comparing photos of the WFAA-TV crime scene wallet and the Oswald wallet in evidence: though the wallets look alike and are of the same style they are not the same make: the flap in the one (the Oswald wallet) has rounded corners/inset metal band, whereas the WFAA-TV wallet has square corners/full-length metal band. That difference is not ambiguous in the photos and is verifiable from the adjoining photos published by Myers in With Malice, pp. 362-363 of 2013. The only question that remains is the distinct question of explanation of the WFAA-TV wallet. If it was from a person or witness associated with the handing over of the Tippit revolver to officers at the same time, that would explain why that citizen's wallet was not confiscated and taken into evidence or otherwise reported in paperwork, because there is no reason why a bystander citizen's ID and wallet would be confiscated or deemed material evidence in the crime under investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said: Totally convincing on the Barrett story of the Oswald wallet at the Tippit crime scene being insubstantial. Myers previously noted what can be verified by anyone comparing photos of the WFAA-TV crime scene wallet and the Oswald wallet in evidence: though the wallets look alike and are of the same style they are not the same make: the flap in the one (the Oswald wallet) has rounded corners/inset metal band, whereas the WFAA-TV wallet has square corners/full-length metal band. That difference is not ambiguous in the photos and is verifiable from the adjoining photos published by Myers in With Malice, pp. 362-363 of 2013. The only question that remains is the distinct question of explanation of the WFAA-TV wallet. If it was from a person or witness associated with the handing over of the Tippit revolver to officers at the same time, that would explain why that citizen's wallet was not confiscated and taken into evidence or otherwise reported in paperwork, because there is no reason why a bystander citizen's ID and wallet would be confiscated or deemed material evidence in the crime under investigation. Greg, I thought the point that has been argued by many researchers is NOT that the wallets were, or near, identical but that they were two separate wallets: one allegedly handed in at 10th and Patton; and one allegedly removed by Bentley in the squad car after the arrest in the Texas Theatre but, crucially, both containing id in the name of Hidell and Oswald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 It is a different wallet. And there is no question that it had ID belonging to Oswald. The question is how it got there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Gram Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 (edited) Hypothetically, if Croy’s belated retelling is accurate and a witness saw the killer ditch the wallet in the bushes while running from the scene, and there was no Oswald/Hidell ID or any photographs, what possible reason could a cop killer have had for doing that? I find it questionable that the wallet belonged to one of the witnesses or a random bystander. How did it get dropped? Is it really likely that it would have slid out of a man’s back pocket by accident? As far as I know, there is zero contemporaneous information about this wallet; and not one law enforcement officer, witness, or anyone who could have known what really happened has ever offered the explanation that it was turned over to an innocent bystander at the scene. Thus I think it is perfectly reasonable to be a little suspicious here. Getting back to Croy, is it possible that the attempted radio transmissions by Tippit before his death related to an ID check? Could Tippit have looked at the wallet, attempted to call it in, then got out of the car when the transmission failed to search the suspect? Is it possible that the suspect did not hear what Tippit called in? If our hypothetical mystery cop killer had reason to believe that his identity may have been broadcast on police radio, and he knew he would need to disappear and get the hell out of town, there’s one plausible motive for why he might have decided to ditch his wallet in the bushes instead of risk being caught with it. Obviously this is pure speculation, but once Oswald was arrested and the cops had their guy, a wallet containing someone else’s ID may have been deemed completely irrelevant to the murder and thus never logged as evidence. The point is that I don’t think Croy’s recollections should be summarily dismissed here - and even if Myers is correct about Barrett, the discovery of a wallet at or near the Tippit murder scene is hardly an insignificant data point, IMO Edited July 22, 2022 by Tom Gram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 Barrett is not insubstantial. Jez said the same thing in private to Martha Moyer. "Don't let anyone BS you. That was Oswald's wallet." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 10 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: Barrett is not insubstantial. Jez said the same thing in private to Martha Moyer. "Don't let anyone BS you. That was Oswald's wallet." Jim, Do you have any idea why Greg Doudna is so far to the LN extreme regarding the Tippit shooting? I mean, Dale Myers obviously can't be trusted, and yet Greg thinks his book is the greatest ever on the Tippit killing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 I have no idea why GD is enamored of Dale, Mr. Single Bullet Fact, Myers. And anyone who reads Joe's book will tell you its the best one on the Tippit case. What he does with Mentzel and Nelson is crucial. And brings into question Dale's sacred tapes--of which there were three versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Gram Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 Sandy, you might disagree with his overall approach, but to say that Greg D. is to the “LN extreme” on the Tippit murder is a bit absurd. He has not once from what I’ve seen been anything less than all-in when advocating for Oswald’s innocence, and has put a lot of time and effort into doing so. That said, I agree with Jim that Myers’ overall credibility from his single bullet fact nonsense is pretty much non-existent. Myers’ book is a useful repository of a lot of the Tippit evidence in one place, but the praise given to his analysis of that evidence is unwarranted IMO - and my comment above is a representative example. Greg is unapologetically biased regarding Ruth Paine, but his posts on Tippit reflect a genuine, objective opinion from careful study of the evidence that Oswald didn’t do it. I don’t think it’s fair, or accurate, to label him as a LN just because he takes a different approach and is a fan of Myers. He obviously disagrees with Myers’ central thesis, and has done a ton of work to highlight some serious problems with the evidence against Oswald. What’s wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 3 hours ago, Tom Gram said: Sandy, you might disagree with his overall approach, but to say that Greg D. is to the “LN extreme” on the Tippit murder is a bit absurd. He has not once from what I’ve seen been anything less than all-in when advocating for Oswald’s innocence, and has put a lot of time and effort into doing so. That said, I agree with Jim that Myers’ overall credibility from his single bullet fact nonsense is pretty much non-existent. Myers’ book is a useful repository of a lot of the Tippit evidence in one place, but the praise given to his analysis of that evidence is unwarranted IMO - and my comment above is a representative example. Greg is unapologetically biased regarding Ruth Paine, but his posts on Tippit reflect a genuine, objective opinion from careful study of the evidence that Oswald didn’t do it. I don’t think it’s fair, or accurate, to label him as a LN just because he takes a different approach and is a fan of Myers. He obviously disagrees with Myers’ central thesis, and has done a ton of work to highlight some serious problems with the evidence against Oswald. What’s wrong with that? Tom, I know that Greg Doudna isn't an LNer and I didn't label him as such. I know that he's a CTer. When I said he was far to the LN extreme on Tippit, I meant that on a CT-to-LN scale, Greg is farther to the LN direction than I have ever seen a CTer get. Which is why I said he's the extreme. Not only does Greg praise Myers' book, but he praises the analyses Myers' puts forth in the book. Plus, he doesn't think that the Oswald wallet (supposedly) found at the Tippit site is substantial! (Even though he hasn't even studied the incident.) These are all things that LNers do and say, not CTers. Having said that, in retrospect I should have explained what I meant by the phrase in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Gram Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: Tom, I know that Greg Doudna isn't an LNer and I didn't label him as such. I know that he's a CTer. When I said he was far to the LN extreme on Tippit, I meant that on a CT-to-LN scale, Greg is farther to the LN direction than I have ever seen a CTer get. Which is why I said he's the extreme. Not only does Greg praise Myers' book, but he praises the analyses Myers' puts forth in the book. Plus, he doesn't think that the Oswald wallet (supposedly) found at the Tippit site is substantial! (Even though he hasn't even studied the incident.) These are all things that LNers do and say, not CTers. Having said that, in retrospect I should have explained what I meant by the phrase in question. Myers is an expert in the popular “debunking” strategy of developing a logical innocent explanation of a completely ambiguous scenario and pushing it as conclusive with persuasive language. This article on the wallet is a perfect example. Myers attacks Barrett’s credibility, and tries to persuade the reader that the wallet is a nothing-burger. However, considering Croy’s statement on the matter, and the overall evidence, Myers is dead wrong - as I described in my first comment in this thread. Even if there was no Oswald/Hidell ID, the discovery of a wallet at the Tippit murder scene is extremely significant, especially if a witness saw it tossed by the killer. The evidence, analyzed objectively, actually favors a suspicious origin of the wallet, yet Myers claims that any suspicion is completely unwarranted to the point of ridicule. Myers’ own argument is that someone’s wallet was found at the scene of the murder that was NOT OSWALD. How is the hell is that not important? Myers said the following in 2014: It doesn't seem to be connected to a witness based on the way police are handling it. The one witness who might be a chief candidate - Ted Callaway - said he was never asked for his wallet upon his return to the scene with Tippit's service revolver, nor is the wallet depicted his. Everyone I spoke with - police, witnesses, and ambulance attendants - said that no wallet was found near Tippit's patrol car. Croy said he was handed a wallet by an unknown individual but didn't no where it was found. All of this is discussed at length in With Malice. Um, am I missing something here? If the wallet didn’t belong to a witness, was found along the killer’s escape route, and did not belong to Oswald, isn’t the prime candidate for the wallet’s owner the REAL KILLER OF TIPPIT?! Myers’ approach is like cognitive dissonance to the max. He lobs vicious insults at critical researchers, puts a mountain of effort into trying to disprove that the wallet contained Oswald’s ID, yet does not once stop to consider the obvious conclusion that all of his work on this wallet is actually compelling evidence in support of OSWALD’s INNOCENCE. This seems like something that Greg would be all over, so I’m surprised that his own theory of this wallet is that it was Callaway’s, which is directly contradicted by Myers himself. Edited July 23, 2022 by Tom Gram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Brown Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 On 7/22/2022 at 10:39 AM, W. Tracy Parnell said: JFK Files: FBI SA Robert M. Barrett and the Tippit Murder To me, the wallet topic is moot; a rabbit hole. Meaningless and unimportant as to the fact that Lee Oswald killed J.D. Tippit. If the wallet really contained Oswald/Hidell identifications in it, it would have been put out over the air immediately. Nowhere on the police tapes do we hear "the wallet found at the scene indicates the killer's name is either Oswald or Hidell". Nothing from the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Brown Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 If this wallet contained Oswald/Hidell identifications inside, why didn't any officer at the scene put out an APB for Oswald/Hidell over the police radio? This is a rhetorical question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Gram Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Bill Brown said: To me, the wallet topic is moot; a rabbit hole. Meaningless and unimportant as to the fact that Lee Oswald killed J.D. Tippit. If the wallet really contained Oswald/Hidell identifications in it, it would have been put out over the air immediately. Nowhere on the police tapes do we hear "the wallet found at the scene indicates the killer's name is either Oswald or Hidell". Nothing from the media. Right, but you don't think the fact that a wallet was found that was not Oswald's might be a significant piece of evidence? According to Myers the wallet did not belong to a witness, and the only information we have is a belated recollection from Croy that a witness claimed it was tossed by the killer as he was fleeing the scene. If it didn't belong to a witness, and didn't belong to Oswald...whose wallet might it be? What does the evidence really tell us here? Once Oswald was arrested and the police had their man, this wallet, that could very well have belonged to the real killer of Tippit would have been deemed irrelevant to the case. Like I said previously, the wallet is hardly an irrelevant data point, and for Myers to claim otherwise is, to quote Pat Speer: "Drool on the floor stupid. Stoopid." Edited July 23, 2022 by Tom Gram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 Oh please. With all we know about Westbrook and Croy? I mean even Farris Rookstool says it was Oswald's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now