The Von Möhrenshildt family

[Guest]

Could very well be ofcourse.

But I'm thinking it was when George went to Yugoslavia to work for ICA.

I remember he said (somewhere in his WC test.Vol IX) he was paid by ICA for his work, the Yugoslavian gouvernment paid for his expenses (sure sounds like a nice deal....).  It could be I just  made the assumption that such a "construction" would not be possible in those days without Reinhard Gehlen being contacted about it.  I could be totally wrong about it, I made some notes when going through his testimony, I'll check those tomorrow.     

I do remember I was thinking why it took the Yugoslavian Government so long before they figured him out, Perhaps they knew, but decided to just keep an eye on him for the time being (and perhaps there was some serious money to be made through this guy...)... don't know.

 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

You mention George possibly having connections to Reinhard Gehlen / the CIA.  In the article I linked it mentions his father (Sergius) and uncle running Nobel Brothers Oil in Baku.  I looked in David Talbot's The Devil's Chessboard which has several pages on De Mohrenschildt for what I remember but didn't find it there either.  Which is that George met first met Allen Dulles in the very early 1920's when he was about 10 years old.  When his father was "director of Noble Oil" in Baku.  The story went that Dulles was sent after college on one of his first missions for Standard Oil to the Baku oil fields to try to secure a portion of them for the company, and he dealt with Sergius.  The deal never happened because of the ongoing Russian revolution. 

Where I read this, I'm now not sure.  Possibly in a thread on the forum as it has been discussed here before.  I'll look some more or maybe another forum member remembers this better than I. 

Couln't find it in my notes, but it could be this I once found on the internet (probably read it months ago, but didn't take notes, still not sure...)

Mae Brussel excerpt (from an article in one of Flint's magazines) :

"George's cousin, the movie producer Baron Constantine Maydell, was one of the top German Abwehr agents in North America. Reinhard von Gehlen recruited Maydell in the post-war era to be in charge of the CIA's Russian emigre programs.  Gehlen recruited veterans of Maydell's Abwehr Group to work with East European emigre organizations inside the U.S."

I don't have a clue on the credibility of Mae Brussell

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edit : just did a little search on Mae, I just did not know her... but it did bring back a lot of memories to see she lived in those places I visited a long time ago (when I was a teenager, visiting my sister that lived in CA at the time).

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

Found it, it came from one of the many German docs on the Maydell family in WW II (George's mother was a Maydell, (e.g. Constantin M. was his direct cousin)

George DM's  Maydell-cousins and -uncles...  pretty much the same as the Von Möhrenschildt, some in Germany with the S S / S D / , others in the US as spies (by now, it's becoming the same old story....).  Up the Maydell family tree it's all about very high ranking officers (admirals etc) in old Tzarist Russia.

I'm trying to find if some of these docs are available in English 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[W. Niederhut]

21 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Could very well be ofcourse.

But I'm thinking it was when George went to Yugoslavia to work for ICA.

I remember he said (somewhere in his WC test.Vol IX) he was paid by ICA for his work, the Yugoslavian gouvernment paid for his expenses (sure sounds like a nice deal....).  It could be I just  made the assumption that such a "construction" would not be possible in those days without Reinhard Gehlen being contacted about it.  I could be totally wrong about it, I made some notes when going through his testimony, I'll check those tomorrow.     

I do remember I was thinking why it took the Yugoslavian Government so long before they figured him out, Perhaps they knew, but decided to just keep an eye on him for the time being (and perhaps there was some serious money to be made through this guy...)... don't know.

 

And recall that Tito had pursued a dangerous course of non-alignment with Stalin and the Soviet Union.

In fact, Stalin reportedly tried to assassinate Tito after 1948.

There's an interesting book about the backstory of the Yugoslav-Soviet rift, by Tito's former Partisan associate, Milovan Djilas, called Conversations With Stalin (1961.)

Under the circumstances, the Yugoslav government probably viewed De Mohrenschildt and his CIA/Gehlen associates as "the enemy of my enemy."

[Guest]

To those that want to investigate these matters, there's a few easy to use lists (in Englisch !).

The list of NSDAP members / SA (e.g. by ctrl+f and typing "Mohrenschildt" you will find Udo and Walter easy

https://second.wiki/wiki/liste_von_nsdap-parteimitgliedsnummern

Next click on their names will lead you to a page full of their war history, or here's the direct link :

https://second.wiki/wiki/walter_von_mohrenschildt

https://second.wiki/wiki/udo_von_mohrenschildt

Reinhard had an SS number, these are other lists (292779 was his number), these are still begin worked on, but for now he is mentioned in the list here : https://www-dws--xip-com.translate.goog/reich/biografie/numery/numer292.html?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en 

Now, George would have been a poopoo spy, SD Foreign Intell., unfortunataly no lists have been found, most are destroyed, it would be quite a find to find his recruiting number (although there is little, if no, doubt he was indeed a spy, as Jeanne admitted after his death.

SD Foreign Intelligence during the War 

During the war, the SD Foreign Intelligence (Office VI of the RSHA) established intelligence networks abroad. They clandestinely operated on the territory of Germany's Axis partners. They occasionally conducted their own foreign policy in competition with the German Foreign Office. Another rival of the SD in the realm of foreign intelligence collection and analysis was the intelligence service of the German Armed Forces (Amt Auslands/Abwehr) under Admiral Wilhelm Canaris. In February 1944, this office was incorporated into the RSHA as Amt Mil.

Part of and from : https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-sicherheitsdienst-sd 

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And, why not..., off-topic, but while you're at the Holocaust Museum's website..... type the name "Ceulemans", you will see some information on/from Betty Blaugrund, a little Jewish girl from Brussels that was hidden during WWII by my family in Aarschot/Belgium (my hometown), the names are spelled a little wrong, their correct names were Louis Ceulemans and Odile Gryson.  On the object page, click on : About and Biography for more information on the history

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Edited July 28, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

1. As I have mentioned there is a lot to find in the German archives.  It is even said Reinhold was one of the architekts of how the S D should function during a war, AND was in the early days working on how concentrationkamps should look like and how to run them (all in an extreme close relationship with Globocknik - Reinhold's sister was even running Globocnik's household for some time).  In one of the documents  : "the children of the Von Möhrenschildt family were already spies before the outbreak of the war....." just to say (PS : this does not mention George, just to be clear) :

Sources : Zusammenfassender Bericht über meine sämtlichen Kontakte mit Nachrichtendienst in Österreich bis 1938. SLO-Archiv 004230 974 - 983), Reinhold baute als Student in Wien den "Sicherheitsdienst SD" / Bundesarchiv Berlin-Lichterfelde, Personalakte "Reinhold von Mohrenschildt"/ Lebensläufe von Mohrenschildt im Kärntner Volksgerichtsakt von 1948 / Czestaw Madajczyk: Zamojszczyzna: SS Sonderlaboratorium Zbior dokumentow polskich iniemieckich zokrosu okupacji hitlerowskiej. Wydawnicza 1979. Vol 1. 60. S. 182. / Kärntner Landesarchiv in Klagenfurt, "Mohrenschild" 27cVR 952/62)

2. there are also TWO very strange stories about Reinhold and Bockelmann (family and both in a prison for a short time after WWII), how they got off the hook with the help of seemingly US military (?):  

- Bockelmann got away with the help of an American called PRESTER.

- Reinhold got away with the help of another guy  PETER HARDLEY (his real name was said to be BERND STEINITZ, not sure he was US but he did speak with an American accent), Reinhold was only questioned in the 1960's and 1970's and that was it, no conviction, nothing

Little (or nothing) is known about this Prester and Hardley, were they working by order of US intell to recrute them ?  Or was the family (De Möhrenschildt / Maydell / ....) helping a hand.... so far nobody knows.

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

Could you elaborate on Jeanne DeM admitting her husband George was a spy?

Time, place, source, context?

Their "just enjoying the great outdoors" walk through Mexico through to Guatemala was ridiculous in it's stated innocent premise.

And this machete chopping through the jungle trek just happened to coincide with the airport arrival meeting of a certain Soviet official in Mexico? Please!

Even back then, a long "walk" through those countries by older blond caucasians without a team of helpers and obvious security would have been easy pickings for "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges" banditos.

Mae Brussell ( from the I.Magnin family out of Beverly Hills ) uncovered the absorbing of N**i bad guys into our ever growing power and influence intelligence framework right after WWII.

She saw and understood the ominous implications and manifestations of this "dealing with the devil" doings.

Same with dealing with the Mafia and utilizing their services from time to time.

Like David Talbot said...it was a "Devil's Chessboard" affair.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Guest]

- about George being a WWII spy, actual proof would have to come from his S D file, but for now that is supposed to have been destroyed, but in Germany there’s quite a number of people working on archiving and documenting the enormous amount of what was still left (a lot of it was just piled up since 1945, now there are a lot of German grandchildren that want to know what happened, their parents etc usually wouldn't talk about it, there's a really big change now in Germany)

- about Jeanne admitting it, I noted that she would have said it in a Fort Worth Star-Telegram, 11th May, 1978 interview with  Jeanne de Mohrenschildt (I do not have that). 

- a certain article in the Washington Star, april 4, 1977 led to the Holmes letter : https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10103-10149.pdf

- and there should/could be something in The Man Who Knew Too Much , Richard Russell, (pp.273), but I don’t really know what that’s about, I don’t have this book, this was mentioned as a "source" on a forum

In general, perhaps you know this released document :

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32155288.pdf

 

[Guest]

Just my opinion, but I really believe he was a German agent, and likely a double agent for French Intell.

France was in a very specific situation in WW II.  The northern part (+/-) was occupied (like Belgium, the Netherlands, etc). 

The southern part however was under the Vichy regime of Pétain, wich was a collaboration regime.

Intell. from all over the globe versus the S D.... not easy to keep track of "who is who and doing what" I think.

Being a double agent was pretty much a way to survive

Let's hope some more files will be found and released, so many questions to be answered... 

 

 

[Guest]

This Comm.Doc. 547 had to do with the investigation in Belgium and France....

I do not know if a non-redacted version has been released since ?

 

[Guest]

In the WC documents there's a lot of interesting information to be found

Here it was decided not to use him as a witness  

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
Pict.removed to save attachm. space

[Guest]

He was making up stories all-the-way in Mexico...

Cousin of a non-existing Belgian nobelman (never heard of the name either) 

Why 2 diff. adresses and phonenumbers, etc

If he was younger he could have been LHO twin brother 😃

 

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
Pict.removed to save attachm. space

[Ron Bulman]

Of Swedish origin?

[Ron Bulman]

On 7/26/2022 at 1:22 PM, Ron Bulman said:

You mention George possibly having connections to Reinhard Gehlen / the CIA.  In the article I linked it mentions his father (Sergius) and uncle running Nobel Brothers Oil in Baku.  I looked in David Talbot's The Devil's Chessboard which has several pages on De Mohrenschildt for what I remember but didn't find it there either.  Which is that George met first met Allen Dulles in the very early 1920's when he was about 10 years old.  When his father was "director of Noble Oil" in Baku.  The story went that Dulles was sent after college on one of his first missions for Standard Oil to the Baku oil fields to try to secure a portion of them for the company, and he dealt with Sergius.  The deal never happened because of the ongoing Russian revolution. 

Where I read this, I'm now not sure.  Possibly in a thread on the forum as it has been discussed here before.  I'll look some more or maybe another forum member remembers this better than I. 

George meeting Allen Dulles at age 10 is important regarding the JFK Assassination.  If he knew Dulles from that age the implications are dumbfounding.

Director of the CIA with still loyal servants fired by JFK.  George directed by the head of the Dallas CIA office to shepherd Oswald, per his own later statement.  I need to find where I read this.

[Guest]

From : https://www.tribunal1965.org/en/allen-dulles-indonesian-strategy-and-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy/

Dulles and George de Mohrenschildt

Poulgrain adds significantly to our understanding of JFK’s assassination and its aftermath by presenting new information about George de Mohrenschildt, Lee Harvey Oswald’s handler in Dallas.  Dulles had a long association with the de Mohrenschildt family, going back to 1920-21 when in Constantinople he negotiated with Baron Sergius Alexander von Mohrenschildt on behalf of Rockefeller’s Standard Oil.  The Baron’s brother and business partner was George’s father.  Dulles’s law firm, Sullivan & Cromwell, “was virtually the front desk for Standard Oil.”  These negotiations on behalf of elite capitalist interests, in the shadow of the Russian Revolution, became the template for Dulles’s career: economic exploitation was inseparable from military concerns, the former concealed behind the anti-communist rhetoric of the latter.  An anti-red thread ran through Dulles’s career, except when the red was the blood of all those whom he considered expendable.  And the numbers are legion.

“It was through Standard Oil that a link existed between Dulles [who controlled the Warren Commission] and de Mohrenschildt, and this should have been brought to the attention of the Warren Commission but was not made public when Dulles had so prominent a role.”  Poulgrain argues convincingly that De Mohrenschildt worked in “oil intelligence” before his CIA involvement, and that oil intelligence was not only Dulles’s work when he first met George’s father, Sergius, in Baku, but that that “oil intelligence” is a redundancy. The CIA, after all, is a creation of Wall Street and their interests have always been joined. The Agency was not formed to provide intelligence to US Presidents; that was a convenient myth used to cover its real purpose which was to serve the interests of investment bankers and the power elite.

While working in 1941 for Humble Oil  (Prescott Bush was a major shareholder, Dulles was his lawyer, and Standard Oil had secretly bought Humble Oil sixteen years before), de Mohrenschildt was caught up in a scandal that involved Vichy (pro-poopoo) French intelligence in selling oil to Germany.  This was similar to the Dulles’s brothers and Standard Oil’s notorious business dealings with Germany.