The Case for a Mauser -- Part I

[Benjamin Cole]

[Benjamin Cole]

At this late date, we cannot ask Craig, "Was there anything written after the word 'Mauser'"?

Craig indicated he saw the word "Mauser" stamped on the barrel, but he did not say if he noticed other words stamped on the barrel. 

The Mauser Argentine seem to have "Mauser Modelo" as the standard stamp. 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[Gil Jesus]

5 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Yet another example. 

[Benjamin Cole]

4 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

Nice image, and of the word "Mauser" by itself. Ergo, if Craig has seen this version of the Mauser, then he accurately related what he saw.  

BTW, I lost the cite, but a girl who used to work for Jack Ruby worked in one of the publisher's offices on the fourth floor of the TSBD, on 11/22. AFAIK, those offices were never searched. 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 

Evidently, the Mausers were made in both Germany and Argentina. 

And a lot of other countries (most in Europe).  For a period, Belgium (FN) had a lot to do with Mauser.

Not to mention the many-many-many converted/adapted/.... Mauser's, any military ordering rifles would demand certain

specifications.  It's an endless list.  

Now, I can see if one is looking at a MC from a distance it could be mistaken for a Mauser at first sight, but NEVER upon closer inspection... 

 

 

[Denny Zartman]

It's funny that people here think they can comfortably ID a MC from a photo or a film taken at a distance, but the people who were actually there, who saw the rifle in three dimensions, and actually handled the most important piece of evidence that they would likely ever handle in their entire professional lives, evidence that had "made Italy cal 6.5" printed on it, and they just couldn't identify it correctly. Did they just pick the 7.65 caliber from thin air, and then sign an affidavit to a blind guess?

Or maybe people here believe the authorities wouldn't ever be so dishonest as to substitute evidence in this case.

It sure looks like a Mauser has "Mauser" written on it, but that's irrelevant because we know for a fact that the MC in evidence has "made Italy cal 6.5" on it.

To believe that the cops found a Mannlicher Carcano means also believing that the cops could not read.

[Ron Ege]

I'm inclined to believe that there was a good chance that a 7.65 Mauser was discovered that day.

Admittedly, I am not the "brightest bulb in the pack".

Many here are - and I've read many superb hypotheses by them which have allowed progress down a road explaining why a questionable posit of the Warren Report, is in fact, much beyond questionable - it actually being false on its face.

Anyone here able to hypothesize just how anyone in authority was able to spirit the Mauser out of the TSBD and have those involved finding/seeing it clam up?

 

 

[Guest]

Perhaps we should make 5 lists (perhaps already done) ?

1) people stating they have seen a Mauser and kept on saying it

2) people stating they have seen a Carcano and kept on saying it

3) people stating they have seen a Mauser and changed their statement later on

4) and... don't think these exist... people stating they have seen a Carcano and later changed it into a Mauser

5) people stating they have seen a rifle, but had no idea what it was

 

And include if they were reporters, DPD, FBI,...

This is not about the longest list wins, just to see if there is a common factor in it somewhere.

 

[Guest]

From what I can find on the internet : when this model became surplus from Argentina for export to the USA,

the crest was grinded off and replaced with the "7.65 mm mauser" stamp.  

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
Pict.removed to save attachm. space

[Guest]

So the weapon described by Craig in his video etc does exist, I have no doubts about that specifically

Here's the source of the above pictures, a post made by someone in 2017 :

https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/7-65-mauser-marking.170943/

Edited August 24, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
added link

[Steve Thomas]

On 8/23/2022 at 6:58 AM, Gil Jesus said:

By Gil Jesus ( 2022 )

 

Then there is the question if the deputies didn't inspect the rifle, why did they choose the caliber of 7.65 ? Did they pick it out of thin air and if so, why ? Why not 7.63 ? Or 7.92 ? Or even the 6.5 that was supposedly on the rifle ? If they were describing the rifle by its action only, why didn't they just describe it as a Mauser ? Where did the 7.65 come from ?

Gil,

Over and above the rifle, I have been interested in the live round that was ejected from the rifle.

By all accounts, the empty cartridges were found first over in the southeast corner of the sixth floor. They were dusted for fingerprints and bagged and tagged around 1:00 PM. (The time of 1:06 sticks in my mind for some reason). So now we have 6.5mm shells entered into evidence. The rifle was found later at 1:22 PM.

You see, we have a dilemna. If the ammo that was found was 6.5mm, we can't have a gun that uses 7.65mm shells.

WC testimony of Lieutenant, J.C. Day

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/day1.htm

 

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what kind of a cartridge case that is?
Mr. DAY. It is a 6.5.
Mr. BELIN. Is that the same kind of a cartridge case that you saw when you first saw these cartridge cases?
Mr. DAY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Lieutenant Day, you took some two pictures of those shell casings. Let me first get you through all the pictures you took. Where did you next take pictures on the sixth floor after you took the pictures of the shell casing; what did you do then?
Mr. DAY. I went, after these were taken--after your number.
Mr. BELIN. 715 and 716.
Mr. DAY. Were taken, I processed these three hulls for fingerprints, using a powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three; did not find fingerprints. As I had finished that, Captain Fritz sent word for me to come to the northwest part of the building, the rifle had been found, and he wanted photographs.

 

WC testimony of Detective, Robert L. Studebaker

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/studebak.htm

Mr. BALL. We will Identify your Exhibit A as your No. 20 and your Exhibit B as your No. 19. Now, what other pictures did you take?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Of the rifle? 139

Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's why, right after these were taken, they said they had found a rifle and to bring the cameras over to the northwest corner of the building where the rifle was found and I loaded everything up and carried it over there.

After the Crime Lb people went over, they took some pictures of the rifle, in situ. Captain Fritz picked the rifle up by its sling, and as Carl Day was holding it, Fritz worked the bolt and a live round fell out.

Mr. BELIN. What else did you do in connection with the rifle at that particular time?
Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did you initial that live round at all?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; my name is on it.
Mr. BELIN. When did you place your name on this live round, if you remember?
Mr. DAY. How?
Mr. BELIN. When?
Mr. DAY. At the time, that was marked at the scene.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you Commission Exhibit No. 141, I will ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. It has "Day" on it where I scratched it on the small end where the slug goes into the shell.
Mr. BELIN. What is this, what is Exhibit 141?
Mr. DAY. That is the live round that fell from the rifle when Captain Fritz opened the bolt.

 

It's what happened after that that interests me.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with this after you put your name on it?
Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz took possession of it. I retained possession of the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Did you process this live round at all for prints?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I did. I did not find any prints.

Mr. BELIN. How did you try to process the live round for prints?
Mr. DAY. With black fingerprint powder.

Mr. DAY. "When bolt opened one live round was in the barrel. No prints are on the live round. Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Day opened the barrel. Captain Fritz has the live round.

How can there not be any prints on an unfired round?

WC testimony of Deputy Sheriff, Eugene Boone

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/boone.htm

 

Mr. BALL - There is one question. Did you hear anybody refer to this rifle as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE - Yes, I did. And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought it was 7.65 Mauser.
Mr. BALL - Who referred to it as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE - I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at it, and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is what it looks like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is, the ID man was getting ready to photograph it.
We were just discussing it beck and forth. And he said it looks like a 7.65 Mauser.

 

WC testimony of Captain, Will Fritz

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm

 

Mr. BALL. What happened after that?
Mr. FRITZ. A few minutes later some officer called me and said they had found the rifle over near the back stairway and I told them same thing, not to move it, not to touch it, not to move any of the boxes until we could get pictures, and as soon as Lieutenant Day could get over there he made pictures of that.
Mr. BALL. After the pictures had been taken of the rifle what happened then?
Mr. FRITZ. After the pictures had been made then I ejected a live shell, a live cartridge from the rifle.
Mr. BALL. And who did you give that to?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that I kept that at that time myself. Later I gave it to the crime lab who, in turn, turned it over to the FBI.
Mr. BALL. Did you put any marking of yours on the empty cartridge?
Mr. FRITZ. On that loaded cartridge?
Mr. BALL. On that loaded cartridge.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I am not sure, I don't think so.
Mr. BALL. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called it most everything.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation right there that day?
Mr. FRITZ. Right at that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes
Mr. FRITZ. I just wouldn't be sure because there were so many people talking at the same time, I might have; I am not sure whether I did or not.
Mr. BALL. Did you think it was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I knew--you can read on the rifle what it was and you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was.
Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any---did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am sure I did not.
Mr. BALL. Or did you think it was such a thing?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not. If I did, the Mauser part, I won't be too positive about Mauser because I am not too sure about Mauser rifles myself. But I am certainly sure that I never did give anyone any different caliber than the one that shows on the cartridges.

Here's a picture of a 7.65 Mauser round:

750 rds. 7.65 Argentine FMJ Ammo - 86751, at Sportsman's Guide

 

Why did Fritz keep that cartridge and put in his pocket instead of turning over to the Crime Lab immediately so it could be bagged and tagged?

Steve Thomas

Edited August 25, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Guest]

From the 11/23/1963 Washington Lab.report, as you can see some stuff was still in Frtiz' pocket... 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
Pictures removed to save space

[Guest]

From the inventory report....

Edited September 29, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

Some more bits FYI , another picture of the live round, a report card on a 7.65 shell and part of a letter draft on the Mauser/Carcano discussion

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
Some pictures removed to save attachm. space

[Guest]

A couple of days later on the 27th someone did the math 3 + 1 = 3  

Oops...

Everybody in the DPD station in panic, untill they opened Fritz's drawer... ah there it is !  Darn Fritzy !

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
Pictured removed to save attachm. space