The Nov 20th Janitor Phonecall

[Joe Bauer]

Who are these two new hot shot researchers Gerry Downs and Tom Gram?

Wow!

They're really something.

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Joe Bauer]

Is this Janitor phone call business leading to Judyth Vary Baker?

Is she the caller from Covington , LA?

If one or more "janitor" phone calls to the TXSBD are verified...will this bolster JVB's credibility?

[Gerry Down]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Is this Janitor phone call business leading to Judyth Vary Baker?

Is she the caller from Covington , LA?

If one or more "janitor" phone calls to the TXSBD are verified...will this bolster JVB's credibility?

I think she is just hitchhiking off this story. I'd like to know who the real caller was, assuming there was a caller which is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.

[Benjamin Cole]

5 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

Ben, re-read the beginning of the thread. It explains the "janitor" reference.

Of course, Oswald wasn't the janitor. Everyone knows that...NOW. Re-read the beginning of the thread to understand what the "janitor" reference was about.

And of course, the failure to search for the Nov. 20 records is suspicious. On that part, you have a gift at explaining the obvious.

Mark--

Thanks for your corrections. I seem to have had a senior moment. 

[Joe Bauer]

7 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

I think she is just hitchhiking off this story. I'd like to know who the real caller was, assuming there was a caller which is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.

Well, again, as with many claims by JVB the questions are:

Can the calls to the TXSBD just days before 11,22,1963 from a "no accent" "polite" woman caller from Covington, LA asking for "the new janitor Lee Oswald" be verified or not?

And if they are 100% verified, then what?

Where the heck did JVB find any report or records of these possible calls?

Where did a report or record of these calls come from and when were they first published?

The JVB story sounds so contrived and made up with dubious claims that are almost  always impossible to verify outside of JVB's own words.

I still keep her and at least some of her Lee Oswald story in mind however, because of her verifiable employment at Reily's Coffee ( a proven job cover company ) and Oswald's employment there at the exact same time and during the same shift.

The letter "J" on at least one LHO time card could be JVB's. Was part of her duties at Reily's time card book keeping?

Both JVB and LHO rode buses to and from their jobs at Reilys. If it was the same bus line this could make their meeting possible. They both would have waited at the same bus stop for the same bus home.  Lonely JVB might have at least noticed the quiet and clean cut young man.

JVB's sister Debbee has verified Judyth telling her of some type of friendship with another man ( besides her at sea husband ) during her time in NOLA soon after JFK was killed. I've never read anything negative about this sister Debbee.

Something there I believe. How much is the question.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Gerry Down]

10 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Can the calls to the TXSBD just days before 11,22,1963 from a "no accent" "polite" woman caller from Covington, LA asking for "the new janitor Lee Oswald" be verified or not?

And if they are 100% verified, then what?

Where the heck did JVB find any report or records of these possible calls?

Where did a report or record of these calls come from and when were they first published?

Alot of these reports were released in the late 1990s and early 2000s as a result of the ARRB. JVBs book wasn't released until 2010. That creates a situation whereby someone could read the released documents picking out certain points into order to weave themselves into the story of Oswalds life. 

The issue with verifying this phonecall might come down to whether the available record shows if the toll tickets for Nov 20th were checked or not. At present I cant see any record of them being checked for that date. The below FBI report which forms part of DeBrueys report of Dec 2nd 1963 is important. The first part of this FBI report which discusses the checking of the toll tickets is missing. In other words there is only half the FBI report (the second half). 

Does anyone know where the first half of this FBI report can be got? It may discuss whether or not the toll tickets for Nov 20th were checked.  

 

SOURCE: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10477#relPageId=522 

 

[Gerry Down]

On 9/12/2022 at 6:12 PM, Tom Gram said:

I don’t think it would be very difficult for the FBI to get Southern Bell to stay quiet. Chandler Josey was a Southern Bell Security Officer (possibly Chief - I forget) in New Orleans and he was prolific FBI informant who assisted with phone tap operations, investigations, you name it. William Walter actually alleged in the 70s that Josey was directly involved in bugging Jim Garrison’s office during the Shaw case, but there is no corroboration of that that I know of. The point is the FBI had a very close relationship with Southern Bell, and Josey is just one example of several Bureau collaborators. 

This position might have some merit in relation to the janitor phonecall.

The FBI describes how a Southern Bell employee (male) checked the toll tickets at the Accounting Department and none matched the call Yvonne Cooper described. The only problem is that the name of this Southern Bell employee who was doing the checks is blacked out on the FBI reports. I don't know if there is an unredacted version of these documents but here are the ones i've managed to locate:

 

SOURCE: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57683#relPageId=219&search=cooper_and covington 

SOURCE: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10477#relPageId=522

What's notable here is that it is not as if it was some policy on FBI documents to blank out the names of Southern Bell employees for some reason. Yvonne Coopers name is on these documents and so is Ed Turnley (SOURCE: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57682#relPageId=189&search=Janitor_and new and call ), the Security Manager, at Southern Bell who seems to have been the point man for the FBI in relation to this whole issue regarding the janitor phonecall.

I wonder what the significance of the name being blanked out in the above documents. The only thing I can think of is the person was an FBI informant. But even if that was the case, I cant see why their name would be blanked out. This person was the person who was to run the toll tickets through the IBM machine to see if any matched the description of the janitor phonecall. Therefore, the person was simply carrying out a legitimate task as instructed of him by the Southern Bell Security Manager Ed Turnley apparently. There should be no reason to hide his name as he would not have been giving this information in the capacity of an informant but simply as part of the normal course of his duties as directed to him by Ed Turnley. 

Without that name, there would be no way for JFK researchers to confirm with the person directly that the IBM run of the toll tickets did not in fact locate the call Yvonne Cooper described. 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Gerry Down

[Tom Gram]

11 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

This position might have some merit in relation to the janitor phonecall.

The FBI describes how a Southern Bell employee (male) checked the toll tickets at the Accounting Department and none matched the call Yvonne Cooper described. The only problem is that the name of this Southern Bell employee who was doing the checks is blacked out on the FBI reports. I don't know if there is an unredacted version of these documents but here are the ones i've managed to locate:

 

SOURCE: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57683#relPageId=219&search=cooper_and covington 

SOURCE: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10477#relPageId=522

What's notable here is that it is not as if it was some policy on FBI documents to blank out the names of Southern Bell employees for some reason. Yvonne Coopers name is on these documents and so is Ed Turnley (SOURCE: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57682#relPageId=189&search=Janitor_and new and call ), the Security Manager, at Southern Bell who seems to have been the point man for the FBI in relation to this whole issue regarding the janitor phonecall.

I wonder what the significance of the name being blanked out in the above documents. The only thing I can think of is the person was an FBI informant. But even if that was the case, I cant see why their name would be blanked out. This person was the person who was to run the toll tickets through the IBM machine to see if any matched the description of the janitor phonecall. Therefore, the person was simply carrying out a legitimate task as instructed of him by the Southern Bell Security Manager Ed Turnley apparently. There should be no reason to hide his name as he would not have been giving this information in the capacity of an informant but simply as part of the normal course of his duties as directed to him by Ed Turnley. 

Without that name, there would be no way for JFK researchers to confirm with the person directly that the IBM run of the toll tickets did not in fact locate the call Yvonne Cooper described. 

 

Southern Bell had plenty of FBI informants and that could definitely be why the name is redacted. It’s possible though that the redacted name is just Ed Turnley and Turnley himself was an informant, which I think is a safe bet given his position as security manager.

I’ve seen similar old versions of FBI documents where names of individuals who happened to be informants were redacted for no apparent reason (Harry Holmes and Joseph Oster come to mind), and my guess is that the logic was to prevent informants from being identified based on information in other documents where they were referred to by an informant number or something. For example, if there was a different released document that said “NO-1509-S, Security Manager, Southern Bell” it’d be possible to identify Turnley. 

I’ve seen it for people who weren’t numbered informants too though, or at least for people whose informant status has never been revealed, so I think there were various rules for protecting people’s identities.

That said, I can almost guarantee that both of the documents you linked have been released in full, so we should be able to identify whose name is missing. Just find out the RIFs and look for duplicates as discussed and check if they are online. I’ll take a look tomorrow but right now I need to sleep. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Tony Rose]

On 9/12/2022 at 7:24 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

A concern about the janitor call:

Before the JFKA, wasn't LHO generally referred to as "Lee Oswald"? 

Also, LHO was a book handler, not a janitor. 

After the JFKA, there were any number of LHO sitings and connections, by earnest but inaccurate witnesses. 

The missing records from Nov. 20 are, as usual in everything about the JFKA case, suspicious. 

 

Yes, it appears that Oswald went by "Lee."  Anytime that "Harvey" is used is suspect.

Lee's actual position was as temporary labor, shoving books around while the new flooring was being laid.

[Guest]

On 9/17/2022 at 4:58 AM, Tom Gram said:

Southern Bell had plenty of FBI informants and that could definitely be why the name is redacted. It’s possible though that the redacted name is just Ed Turnley and Turnley himself was an informant, which I think is a safe bet given his position as security manager.

I’ve seen similar old versions of FBI documents where names of individuals who happened to be informants were redacted for no apparent reason (Harry Holmes and Joseph Oster come to mind), and my guess is that the logic was to prevent informants from being identified based on information in other documents where they were referred to by an informant number or something. For example, if there was a different released document that said “NO-1509-S, Security Manager, Southern Bell” it’d be possible to identify Turnley. 

I’ve seen it for people who weren’t numbered informants too though, or at least for people whose informant status has never been revealed, so I think there were various rules for protecting people’s identities.

That said, I can almost guarantee that both of the documents you linked have been released in full, so we should be able to identify whose name is missing. Just find out the RIFs and look for duplicates as discussed and check if they are online. I’ll take a look tomorrow but right now I need to sleep. 

It is Ed Turnley indeed, here's a copy including the top part

FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 12

 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

 

Picture/doc removed (not need for)

Edited September 20, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
Picture/doc removed (no need for)

[Guest]

To those who are following this topic on the call for the TBDB - janitor (in using a shortcut, these are the 2 basic tlt doc's ) :

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62270#relPageId=149&search=janitor  ( = 3 pages 149/150/151 )

and 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62267#relPageId=3&search=janitor ( = page 3 )

If I have overlooked them, sorry for the double posts

Edited September 20, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

To those who are following this topic on the call for the TBDB - janitor (in using a shortcut, these are the 2 basic tlt doc's ) :

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62270#relPageId=149&search=janitor  ( = 3 pages 149/150/151 )

and 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62267#relPageId=3&search=janitor ( = page 3 )

If I have overlooked them, sorry for the double posts

Nice find. Your previous document showing that the redacted name was Ed Turnley is puzzling. Why redact his name at all? Running these toll ticket checks was simply him doing his job as part of the FBIs investigation. Can't see why his name should have been redacted.

[Guest]

deleted

Edited September 29, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

The above o/c do not include any redacted "Turnley" doc's, but those can be traced.

This is all just textual search (to get to some doc's easy)

A structural search like Tom Gram described is of course far better to find all the related documents  

Personally, I'm still in the "wow-amazing-fase" about all what is out there....  

And way too often distracted by doc's I bump into, but was not looking for...