Where did LHO learn to speak Russian (with a Polish accent)?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

David Lifton writes:

Quote

This post to the London Education Forum

To start on a very trivial note, I'm curious why David keeps calling this the "London Education Forum" or the "London forum". Did it once have a connection with London? As far as I am aware, Invision is based in the USA, several thousand miles west of London, and James Gordon lives in Scotland, several hundred miles north of London and on the other side of a national border. Anyway, while we're on the subject of geographical confusion ...

It's an interesting suggestion that Oswald was taught Russian by a native Polish speaker, and that consequently Oswald went on to speak Russian with a Polish accent.

But how much evidence is there that Oswald actually did speak Russian with a Polish accent? David writes:

Quote

there's a number of references to LHO's "Polish accent," and they should all be gathered together in one file.

They certainly do need to be gathered together, since they form the premise of David's theory. The more references there are, the stronger that premise will be.

As we have seen, Peter Gregory thought he detected a Polish accent. That's one reference. But, out of all the people with whom Oswald spoke Russian at one time or another, a single example doesn't provide very much support for David's claim. Who else is there?

David mentions "Russian with a distinct Polish accent (which Marina agrees he had)" and "I think Marina made a remark to that effect, also.  But I am not certain" and "Am not sure she was aware of the 'Polish accent' issue". Is there any documentary evidence that Marina thought Oswald's accent was Polish?

There's documentary evidence that she didn't think his accent was Polish. Marina told the HSCA that she thought Oswald's accent was that of someone from "Estonia, Lithuania, something like that" (HSCA Report, Appendix vol.2, p.208; see also p.311).

Ernst Titovets also contradicts the Polish-accent claim. He apparently thought Oswald had an American accent, which would make sense, what with Oswald being American.

George de Mohrenschildt mentioned more than once in his I'm a Patsy manuscript that Oswald had a slight accent, but he did not specify the type of accent. Since de Mohrenschildt knew that Oswald was a native English-speaking American, he would presumably have mentioned that Oswald spoke Russian with a Polish accent, or with an Estonian or Lithuanian accent, or any accent other than an American accent, if Oswald had done so. Evidently, Oswald did not have a Polish accent when he and George de Mohrenschildt spoke Russian.

How many of the other native Russian speakers in the Dallas and Fort Worth area, who met Oswald and knew that he was American, stated that he spoke Russian with an incongruous Polish accent? You'd think that all or most of them would have mentioned it, but Peter Gregory appears to be the only one who did.

If Oswald spoke Russian with a Polish accent, David's theory offers a plausible explanation. But there isn't much evidence that Oswald did actually speak Russian with a Polish accent, and there are reasons to suspect that he didn't. On the current state of the evidence, it seems very likely that Oswald spoke Russian with an American accent.

In conclusion, David might want to do a bit more research on the whole Polish accent thing before he sends his book manuscript to the publishers.

Incidentally, it has been pointed out that Oswald might have picked up traces of a Polish accent from another source, the family of Alexander Ziger, Oswald's Polish friend at the radio factory in Minsk:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2313-oswald-and-the-russian-language#40336

That comment includes several other worthwhile contributions to the subject of this thread, such as evidence that Oswald did in fact receive tuition in Russian while in the Marines, in addition to teaching himself the language.

[Michael Griffith]

On 9/18/2022 at 8:12 AM, David Lifton said:

This post to the London Education Forum describes a discovery that I made —several years ago— which may hold the answer to an important question:  When (and how) did Oswald learn Russian?

Let’s start with a recap of this interesting historical puzzle.

The Puzzle

The Warren Commission report does not offer a satisfactory answer to this question.  The Report basically implies that somehow —and the stress is on “somehow” —he taught himself Russian by the end of December 1958, at which time he had returned from his overseas tour, where he served at Atsugi Naval Air Station, which was the basis for U-2 flights over the USSR.

True, one can develop —and learn — a basic vocabulary by memorizing some 100 key words that appear in a Russian -English dictionary; but studying a dictionary will not provide fluency —the ability to actually speak the language.  To achieve that, one must have a “dialogue partner” —i.e., language instruction.

However, there is no evidence that Oswald received any language instruction while in Japan. Also, after his return to the U.S. (Dec. 1958), and during his time at El Toro Marine Base (which is in Southern California, in the vicinity of Santa Ana), there is no indication that he received any language instruction at Defense Language Institute (“DLI”) —which, by the way, is several hundred miles north, in Monterey, California.  DLI is where people were sent to benefit from various “full immersion” language instruction programs, in language courses of various lengths of time (20 week program, 64 week program, etc.).  Had Oswald attended DLI, that would have provided the answer to the puzzle; but the evidence seems clear that he did not attend DLI.

So the issue of “how” Oswald attained Russian language proficiency persists. I believe I have what may be the answer to the question, but let’s first recap Oswald’s basic chronology.

The Oswald Chronology — The Basics

Oswald defected to the USSR after his exit from the USMC in late August/early Sept., 1959.  After a brief visit with his mother, and brother in Ft. Worth —his hometown— he departed for New Orleans.  He traveled by bus to New Orleans, and purchased a ticket aboard a freighter. (He had told his mother and brother that he would be seeking work on a freighter, bound for Europe). In fact, Oswald went to New Orleans and booked space on a freighter (the Marion Lykes) heading for Le Havre, France.   After arriving there, he took the boat-train from Le Havre to London.  He then made a beeline for Moscow (flying to Helsinki, then traveling by train to Moscow.)

Again here was Oswald’s itinerary: he flew from London to Helsinki, Finland; and then followed a path that led to the Soviet Union, where he arrived (by train) in early October.  He went to the American Embassy, and said he wanted to defect.   He said he was a devout Marxist, that the USSR was a superior society than the U.S.; and that he wanted to spend the rest of his life in the U.S.S.R.  The Americans basically ignored him, but —particularly after he made a shallow cut in his wrist, faking a suicide attempt, and ending up in a hospital —  the Soviets arranged for him to be sent to Minsk (500 miles from Moscow) where he was provided a job in a factory, and a monthly stipend.  Oswald remained there for about 15 months, at which point he indicated he was tired of that experience, and wanted to return to the U.S.  In March 1961, Oswald went to a dance and met Marina (who was quite beautiful —and still is, BTW).  Within a month she was pregnant (which I personally believe was intentional) and that paved the way for Marina to get what is known as a “243(g) waiver” -- see Sylvia Meagher's book, "Oswald and the State Dept." for details; which then paved the way for the couple’s  expeditious return to the U.S. in mid-June 1962.

So much for the basic “recap.”  In asking the question —when (and how) did Oswald learn Russian? —  it is important to understand the “Oswald time line” and to ignore what happened after LHO had lived in the USSR for some 37 months.  (Obviously his fluency markedly improved after he was in the USSR for over two-and-a half years).  The focus here, in this writing, is not his fluency after he lived in the USSR — that is not the issue; rather my focus here is in the last nine months before he left the Marines, i.e., Dec. 1958 - Sept. 1959.

Here’s a brief recap, one purpose being to attempt to pinpoint the time when he may have received covert language instruction. Is there such a period?

The Oswald Chronology

Lee Oswald was born on 10/18/39.  His dream, from the time he was about age 12, was to join the Marines at the earliest possible time,  which he did on his 17th birthday: 10/18/56.   What followed was basic training, specialized training as a radar operator, and then came a tour of duty in the Far East.  Specifically: Atsugi, Japan.  Finally, in December 1958, he returned from Japan, and began his final “U.S.” period: about 10 months at El Toro Marine Base, in Southern California.

The Warren Commission divided his life into four periods, which it labeled as follows:

Youth  (1939 - 10/17/56)

Marine Period  (10/17/56 - 9/11/59)

Russian Period  (Oct 1959 - 6/62)

O-Post Russian  (6/62 - 11/24/63)

Let’s review this “basic chronology” once again.

LHO entered the Marines at the earliest time possible: his 17th birthday.  After basic training, he served overseas (in Japan); and returned to the U.S., and was assigned to El Toro Marine Base (near Santa Ana, in Southern California) in the last week of December 1958.

The question being posed here — “When (and how) did Oswald learn Russian?”— applies to his competence in the Russian language after he returned from his overseas tour in Japan, and returned to El Toro Marine Base in late December 1958.  Oswald would remain at El Toro until he departed the Marines in early September 1959, at which point —after a brief visit with his mother and brother in Ft. Worth —he took a freighter to France, and then—after arriving in Le Havre—proceeded by boat train  to London, and then made a beeline for Russia.

The basic question (once again) is this:  Where (and how) did Oswald learn Russian?  Obviously, after spending 37 months in Russia, it would not be surprising to learn that Oswald had serious competency in Russian (although an interesting factoid is that he spoke it with a detectable Polish accent).  The question I am posing here is not his competence in Russian after he lived in Russia for 37 months.  The question I am posing is this: what was the source of his competence in Russian after his overseas tour in Japan, and before he left for Russia?   Specifically, I ask the reader to focus on this period:  between December 1958 (when he arrived back in the U.S. and was serving at El Toro Marine Base) and the spring (and summer) of 1959.  How did his facility in Russian increase so markedly in this period? 

We know that his Russian fluency bloomed during this period because by June 1959, when he was fixed up on a date with Pan Am stewardess Rosaleen Quinn (who was training in Russian. using the Berlitz method), his language skills far exceeded hers. (See FBI reports, Quinn WC deposition, etc).

Again, the question: what happened at El Toro, in the spring of 1959, that his Russian language skills bloomed?

Was it DLI?

The ordinary answer would be: he must have attended a language course AT DLI (in Monterey, California): unfortunately, the record indicates no such attendance.  Furthermore, there is another reason for rejecting such a hypothesis.  Had Oswald been a student at DLI (in the Spring of 1959), then there surely would have been a significant reaction (in late October/early November 1959) when his well-publicized defection to the USSR occurred.  Think about it: there would have been numerous students (from his class at  DLI) who would have reacted to the LHO defection (in October 1959)  by saying: “Hey, what’s going on here? That guy Oswald, who just defected to the USSR — he was in our class here at DLI!  He’s no Communist! What’s he now doing in Moscow?!”

My conclusion: IMHO, the DLI hypothesis does not work.

However, there must be an answer to this seemingly intractable puzzle, and I believe I know what it is. There’s other information —another hypothesis, if you will —that does provide the answer to LHO’s sudden increase in Russian language competence in the spring of 1959.

Specifically: some years ago, I learned of another way Oswald may have learned Russian — Russian with a distinct Polish accent (which Marina agrees he had) — and it has nothing to do with DLI.

Read on, to "Part 2"

Part 2

DSL Note:  In order to avoiding a situation in which a number of people are subject to a numerous inquiries from various students of this case, I have changed the key names in the account which follows.

Some years ago, I learned that in the Spring of 1959 (and in the vicinity of Santa Ana, California), there was a Polish  woman who worked in the same hospital as the mother of a friend of mine.  For the purpose of this memo, I will call my friend “Joe,” and I will call the woman Amy Balinowski.

My friend’s mother and Amy Balinowski worked in the same convalescant hospital; and (through the son)  that is how I came by the following conclusion(s):

Oswald was very likely tutored in Russian by a Polish woman who worked in the area of Santa Ana, California.  I have changed her first name to “Amy” and her last name to “Balinowski.’

THE DETAILS

Amy Balinowski was originally from Poland, and worked in a hospital in Santa Ana, California.  The mother of a friend of mine —call him Joe —worked in that same hospital, and got to know Amy quite well.  Some years ago, when conversing about the JFK case, my friend shared with me important information which came from conversations with his mother.

The gist of it is simply this: in order to earn extra money, this woman (Amy Balinowski) tutored a number of GI’s and others in Russian.  Of course, because Amy was originally from Poland, her Russian —as she spoke it (and taught it)— would have a Polish accent.

How does this bear on the Oswald situation?

My Own Tentative Conclusion

It is my belief that rather than subscribe to a hypothesis that involves Oswald attending DLI, hundreds of miles away, it is more logical and simpler to believe that when Oswald left the base (which he often did) and traveled to Santa Ana to receive tutoring in Russian, he received such language  instruction from the Polish Russian-speaking woman, Amy Balinowski.

Restating my belief: Oswald was one of the GI’s that the “friend of my friend’s mother”  tutored. If so, this is why (a) Oswald would have been able to learn to speak Russian from someone located near El Toro Marine Base in Santa Ana; and (b) it is also why, if such a person was his teacher, that his Russian would have a Polish accent.

Look at it this way: the Polish accent (in LHO's spoken Russian) is surely an important key (or clue) as to who his "language teacher" must have been.

Recapping:

We know from the existing record that Oswald regularly left the base —and went somewhere.  if the Russian instructor—who had a Polish accent — was located near Santa Ana, he would not have had to travel very far to receive such language instruction.

I have been aware of this situation for several years.  I have another — older —computer which contains the original memos that I wrote on this situation some years go.  When time permits, I will attempt to retrieve the original memos that I wrote, and quote from them directly.

THE END

Appendix A:  Defense Language Institute (from Wikipedia)

The Defense Language Institute (DLI) is a United States Department of Defense (DoD) educational and research institution consisting of two separate entities which provide linguistic and cultural instruction to the Department of Defense, other federal agencies and numerous customers around the world. The Defense Language Institute is responsible for the Defense Language Program, and the bulk of the Defense Language Institute's activities involve educating DoD members in assigned languages, and international personnel in English. Other functions include planning, curriculum development, and research in second-language acquisition.  (END OF DOCUMENT)

I thought Marina said that Oswald spoke Russian with an Estonian or Latvian or Lithuanian accent? I can't remember what accent she identified, but I don't think it was a Polish accent. 

Anyway, I can shed some light about DLI. I was a signals intelligence linguist in the Army and attended DLI twice. Nobody, but nobody, goes to DLI unless they have orders that authorize them to attend, and 99% of the people who are sent to DLI work in some kind of classified field. When Rankin let slip that Oswald had attended DLI, he revealed a great deal. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Michael Griffith

[David Lifton]

21 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

David Lifton writes:

To start on a very trivial note, I'm curious why David keeps calling this the "London Education Forum" or the "London forum". Did it once have a connection with London? As far as I am aware, Invision is based in the USA, several thousand miles west of London, and James Gordon lives in Scotland, several hundred miles north of London and on the other side of a national border. Anyway, while we're on the subject of geographical confusion ...

It's an interesting suggestion that Oswald was taught Russian by a native Polish speaker, and that consequently Oswald went on to speak Russian with a Polish accent.

But how much evidence is there that Oswald actually did speak Russian with a Polish accent? David writes:

They certainly do need to be gathered together, since they form the premise of David's theory. The more references there are, the stronger that premise will be.

As we have seen, Peter Gregory thought he detected a Polish accent. That's one reference. But, out of all the people with whom Oswald spoke Russian at one time or another, a single example doesn't provide very much support for David's claim. Who else is there?

David mentions "Russian with a distinct Polish accent (which Marina agrees he had)" and "I think Marina made a remark to that effect, also.  But I am not certain" and "Am not sure she was aware of the 'Polish accent' issue". Is there any documentary evidence that Marina thought Oswald's accent was Polish?

There's documentary evidence that she didn't think his accent was Polish. Marina told the HSCA that she thought Oswald's accent was that of someone from "Estonia, Lithuania, something like that" (HSCA Report, Appendix vol.2, p.208; see also p.311).

Ernst Titovets also contradicts the Polish-accent claim. He apparently thought Oswald had an American accent, which would make sense, what with Oswald being American.

George de Mohrenschildt mentioned more than once in his I'm a Patsy manuscript that Oswald had a slight accent, but he did not specify the type of accent. Since de Mohrenschildt knew that Oswald was a native English-speaking American, he would presumably have mentioned that Oswald spoke Russian with a Polish accent, or with an Estonian or Lithuanian accent, or any accent other than an American accent, if Oswald had done so. Evidently, Oswald did not have a Polish accent when he and George de Mohrenschildt spoke Russian.

How many of the other native Russian speakers in the Dallas and Fort Worth area, who met Oswald and knew that he was American, stated that he spoke Russian with an incongruous Polish accent? You'd think that all or most of them would have mentioned it, but Peter Gregory appears to be the only one who did.

If Oswald spoke Russian with a Polish accent, David's theory offers a plausible explanation. But there isn't much evidence that Oswald did actually speak Russian with a Polish accent, and there are reasons to suspect that he didn't. On the current state of the evidence, it seems very likely that Oswald spoke Russian with an American accent.

In conclusion, David might want to do a bit more research on the whole Polish accent thing before he sends his book manuscript to the publishers.

Incidentally, it has been pointed out that Oswald might have picked up traces of a Polish accent from another source, the family of Alexander Ziger, Oswald's Polish friend at the radio factory in Minsk:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2313-oswald-and-the-russian-language#40336

That comment includes several other worthwhile contributions to the subject of this thread, such as evidence that Oswald did in fact receive tuition in Russian while in the Marines, in addition to teaching himself the language.

Re: "did in fact receive tuition* in Russian while in the Marines."  I believe you meant to write  "instruction in Russian."  Please correct. Thanks. DSL

*Correction: Yes, I meant to  write "receive instruction," not "receive tuition."

P.S. (9/20/22_ 11 PM PDT): For many years, I have used the name for this Internet discussion group as the "London Education Forum," and always assumed that was its correct name.  

P.P.S.: De Mohrenschildt was Polish; and I believe that provides the proper context for any remarks he made about LHO's accent. I have not read his manuscript in decades, and presently do not know if he addressed the matter of Oswald speaking Russian with an accent (Polish or otherwise).

Edited September 21, 2022 by David Lifton
Clarification

[David Lifton]

On 9/18/2022 at 12:06 PM, Gerry Down said:

The theory laid out by Mr. Lifton could well be correct and help fill in another puzzle in the life of Oswald. However it should also be noted that Oswald was said to listen to Russian records while in the Marines. I wonder if he listened to these records after doing so poor in the Feb 1959 Russian test. Such records could potentially explain his sudden improvement over the next few months and there is also the possibility of him picking up an accent from those records. 

I don't believe "Russian records [i.e., audio recordings]" can explain LHO's fluency. There must have been a "dialogue partner" --i.e., he must have had a dialogue partner. (Of course, this matter can --and will --be debated).  Also note: the late Mary Ferrell --whom (who?)  I knew quite well -- was intrigued with this issue, and set out to learn some basic Russian, just to explore (and gain some personal experience) with how "second language acquisition" worked.  Mary was very intelligent and talented. She tried and tried and --finally --just gave up.  As I recall, it was a brief experiment, and Mary came nowhere near achieving the level of LHO's fluency.  My own conclusion (and I think Mary's too): LHO must have had a dialogue partner. The mystery was: "who what when where"?) etc.

Edited September 21, 2022 by David Lifton
Clarification; fixing syntax

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Miles Massicotte said:

Just to add a little corroboration to this: I don't speak Russian but I do speak a little Bulgarian, a language estimated to be 90% similar to Russian (Cyrillic, vocabulary, grammar, etc.) What little Bulgarian I speak would be nearly impossible without a dialogue partner (in this case, my wife).

As it happens (by sheer coincidence to this discussion) one of the ways I tried to learn Bulgarian was using a DLI manual. These manuals do have recordings, which I had access to (they are freely available online). Despite using this, as well as a number of other more modern resources, I would never have been able to achieve what little I have achieved without a dialouge partner. In my experience Oswald couldn't have achieved what he did with Russian records alone. For Oswald to achieve fluency in a similar language without a dialouge partner I feel is nearly impossible, except if he was some kind of savant. 

 Наэдраве!

Try learning Thai. Even my wife can't teach me. 

[Karl Hilliard]

 

 I was especially interested in his writing in Russian script. As in his writing English words... many Russian ones are misspelled leading some to think that whoever wrote this note was not very well versed in the Russian language. For example ---key [ключ]...kluch or drugstore [аптека]..apteka.

Still a much better job than I [who can only print the Cyrillic alphabet] and this note appeared to be written in a hurry----

 

Oswald spoke English in what I believe is an accent typical of speakers from New Orleans.

[Guest]

On 9/21/2022 at 1:22 AM, David Lifton said:

P.P.S.: De Mohrenschildt was Polish; and I believe that provides the proper context for any remarks he made about LHO's accent. I have not read his manuscript in decades, and presently do not know if he addressed the matter of Oswald speaking Russian with an accent (Polish or otherwise).

In his manuscript GDM mentions Lee's Russian twice :

from the HSCA Volume XII: George de Mohrenschildt 

"Lee spoke it very well, only with a slight accent" (pdf page 32/270)

"Marina bad a had habit of constantly correcting Lee when he was speaking Russian and that annoyed him and me . Lee, for a man of his back round, had a remarkable talent for Russian and Marina foolishly tried to blow up his occasional mistakes or ridicule his slight accent . It's difficult to know two languages to perfection and Lees English was perfect, refined, rather litterary, deprived of any Southern accent . lie sounded like a very educated American of undeterminate background" (pdf page 107/270)

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

And some more on his skills

I can be mistaken but I feel like his abilities in speaking Russian are some what over-rated by some.

Yes, he was interested in Russian while in the military, probably took some course and ask for a test (that did not end very well I think ?), en some classes in CA probably as well.

His fluence he got during his stay in Russia,  and more important he was not afraid of making mistakes, that adds to fluence i.m.o.

But for the rest, how is one to debate in-debth Russian litareture when your partner in conversation hasn't read the works himself (GDM).,  That imo is the first thing needed to go in-depth..... never really happened

He was known to use difficult words he pick-up, and when I read he statement, he often did not realise the meaning of those words.....

I know all of this is very subjective and open for discussion, and I will respect other opnions, just stick to the documents whe have and read them for what they are

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[David Lifton]

3 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

And some more on his skills

I can be mistaken but I feel like his abilities in speaking Russian are some what over-rated by some.

Yes, he was interested in Russian while in the military, probably took some course and ask for a test (that did not end very well I think ?), en some classes in CA probably as well.

His fluence he got during his stay in Russia,  and more important he was not afraid of making mistakes, that adds to fluence i.m.o.

But for the rest, how is one to debate in-debth Russian litareture when your partner in conversation hasn't read the works himself (GDM).,  That imo is the first thing needed to go in-depth..... never really happened

He was known to use difficult words he pick-up, and when I read he statement, he often did not realise the meaning of those words.....

I know all of this is very subjective and open for discussion, and I will respect other opnions, just stick to the documents whe have and read them for what they are

 

 

6 hours ago, Karl Hilliard said:

 

 I was especially interested in his writing in Russian script. As in his writing English words... many Russian ones are misspelled leading some to think that whoever wrote this note was not very well versed in the Russian language. For example ---key [ключ]...kluch or drugstore [аптека]..apteka.

Still a much better job than I [who can only print the Cyrillic alphabet] and this note appeared to be written in a hurry----

 

Oswald spoke English in what I believe is an accent typical of speakers from New Orleans.

Agreed. That's how LHO spoke English-- his spoken English exhibited a "southern" accent.  But that's not the issue raised here. The issue explored here, on this thread, is not Oswald's "southern accent" (when  he spoke English), but the source of his accent when he spoke Russian.  When he was living in Minsk, USSR, and met Marina at the dance (March 1961),  Marina immediately recognized that he spoke Russian with some kind of accent, which she  (Marina) took to be someone who (she thought) was from one of the "Baltic" states. (DSL, 9/21/22, 8:10 PM PDT))

Edited September 22, 2022 by David Lifton

[Guest]

A note in general :  Latvian and Lithuanian languages are not Russian dialects,    

There is a lot of difference between Baltic (Latvia ao) and Slavic languages (Russian).

One uses the Latin-alfabet, the other cyrillic, etccc

But the official language is Latvian, and that is very different from Russian. 

Proof there is a hugo difference, e.g. the problems of today's world :

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62592714

Btw : Wiki has a nice chart on the evolution of those languages.   But there is disagreement on the Baltic-Slavic common ancestor (that's more  demo-/geographic v/s linguistic some say, and was taken as "an easy way out").     Anyway, Baltic splits high on the chart...

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

David Lifton writes:

Quote

De Mohrenschildt was Polish; and I believe that provides the proper context for any remarks he made about LHO's accent. I have not read his manuscript in decades, and presently do not know if he addressed the matter of Oswald speaking Russian with an accent (Polish or otherwise).

As far as I can tell, George de Mohrenschildt was born in what is now Belarus, lived his early life in Russia, and moved to Poland at around the age of ten. He was educated in Poland to university level and presumably spoke Polish at or near the level of a native speaker.

We would certainly expect de Mohrenschildt to have noticed a Polish accent, if Oswald had one. But he didn't mention a Polish accent. Since de Mohrenschildt knew that Oswald was American, the clear implication is that Oswald's unspecified "slight accent" when speaking Russian was that of an American.

Of the other native Russian speakers in the Dallas area who met Oswald, only Peter Gregory claimed that Oswald had a Polish accent. As Jean Paul points out, Gregory was not certain about this.

None of the other Russian speakers appear to have mentioned that Oswald had any sort of accent, let alone a Polish accent. Like George de Mohrenschildt, they knew that Oswald was American. Their failure to mention his accent is precisely what we would expect if his accent was American, not Polish.

Ernst Titovets apparently thought that Oswald's accent was American.

Marina Oswald didn't think her husband had a Polish accent. She told the HSCA that she thought Oswald's accent was that of someone from "Estonia, Lithuania, something like that" (HSCA Report, Appendix vol.2, p.208: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=81#relPageId=212) . Is there a record elsewhere of Marina claiming that Oswald's accent was Polish?

All we have at the moment is one witness, Peter Gregory. Against this, several other people who could be expected to have noticed an incongruous Polish accent failed to mention one, which implies that Oswald spoke Russian with an American accent, as we would expect and as Ernst Titovets claimed.

David's argument is that Oswald spoke Russian with a Polish accent because he was taught Russian by a native Polish speaker. But anyone who intends to explain Oswald's Polish accent first needs to demonstrate that he actually had one. The evidence we have at the moment suggests strongly that he didn't.

[Greg Doudna]

What stands out to me is David Lifton's discovery of a Polish woman who gave tutoring lessons in Russian to American GIs in Santa Ana. How many GIs at Oswald's base were learning Russian at the time Oswald was there involving an off-base private tutor? If the Polish woman Russian tutoring claim is true, what are the chances she was not tutoring the only known Russian learner there, Oswald? That is the interesting point. It has nothing to do with disparaging or negating any prior language-learning of Oswald in Japan. It goes to helping answer a continuing question: how did Oswald learn a difficult language, Russian, to the fluency he achieved?

As for the Polish accent, David Lifton's discovery of the possible tutor or conversation partner of Oswald in Santa Ana would be of interest whether or not there was a Polish accent, but Peter Gregory's testimony strikes me as fairly significant evidence of such an accent. Marina's "Lithuanian or Latvian" accent of Oswald the first night she met him would be a guess of one who realized it was not the Russian spoken in Russia; it indirectly supports a Polish conversation partner of Oswald coming through in Oswald's Russian. But the important point is Lifton's Polish woman tutor is highly plausible and of interest (assuming the Polish woman tutoring story is true), whether or not there was a pass-through Polish accent in Oswald's Russian.

On Oswald's degree of fluency, however good he was he was no match for Marina in Russian according to Ruth Paine, who  has told of hearing Lee and Marina argue in Russian, and Marina overpowering Lee in such because she knew Russian better and Lee at a loss for words. So he was good, but not quite as good as a native speaker. 

I am a little puzzled at why there is resistance to the idea of a Polish woman who says she tutored Russian to GIs in Santa Ana at a time Oswald was there, having tutored Oswald. Its as if an explanation to a longstanding puzzle is being offered on a silver platter with no evidence against, and people are objecting!  

Granted its not proven, but it sure is plausible. What not to like?

[Guest]

On GDM, many say he was Polish, but that is not 100% correct

It was actually Lithuania, Wilno/Vilnius, wich was occupied by POLAND at the time

1911 Born in Mozyr (Belarus)

When he was circa 6 yo. in 1917 his family moved to Wilno (Vilnius) wich is Lithuania* (because of Tsarist Revolution and the family had property in Wilmo)

In 1918 Wilmo (and Southern part of Lithuania) occupied by Poland (Second Polish Republic)

Next to moved to Minsk (Belarus) for a short time,  but returned to Wilmo (Lith. - "Poland")

1929 Graduated from gymnasium in Wilno ( Lithuania - "Poland")  

His time in "real" Poland started during his education at the military academy in Grudziondz (Poland)

 

So, yes he was Polish (because of the Second Polish Republic that included Lithuania*), but he spend his time in what was actually Lithuania....  

*to the full extent for some time, to a lesser extend (1922-1923) later but still heavy under Polish influence (army etc)

SO when speaking of a Lithuanian accent, or a Polish accent... different world, but some people have it from both worlds... (like GDM)

All I'm trying to say, my uncle was born in 1944 in Belgium, when it was occupied by the Germans.  That doesn't make him German 

And finally, so we have GDM born in Mozyr - Belarus (White Russian), next raised in Wilmo  - Lithuania (under Polish occ.) and went to a Polish Military Academy.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

On 9/20/2022 at 10:48 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

We would certainly expect de Mohrenschildt to have noticed a Polish accent, if Oswald had one. But he didn't mention a Polish accent. 

Absolutely true.  But it is hard to make definite conclusions on these matters.  I would love to hear the White-Russians on GDM's accent 😃 

Born Belarus (his parents spoke Russian, he would pick that up o/c), next up to his 18 year living in Lithuania,  next going to a Polish academy... What kind of accent would that make... and how would GDM define an other man's accents.

I can't help but think this LHO Polish accent somewhat had more to do with his way of speaking in general.  And the fluency one talkes about is surely not about accuracy 

[Michael Griffith]

3 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

A note in general :  Latvian and Lithuanian languages are not Russian dialects,    

Some people might be mistakenly using the word "dialect" when they are really referring to "accent." I'm talking about an accent. As someone noted in an earlier reply (and as I thought I remembered), Marina said Oswald had an Estonian or Lithuanian accent on his Russian. The fact that he spoke Russian so well when he met Marina is revealing.