Where did LHO learn to speak Russian (with a Polish accent)?

[David McLean]

Thanks Jean Paul for retrieving those haunting lyrics so reminiscent of LHOs early life…while not strongly convinced by either of two hypotheses of his language acquisition running through this thread, his high natural intelligence, combined with his vulnerability, evoke reference to the John Hersey novel The Child Buyer.

Has anybody else read this, or his The War Lover, and not thought they reflected what was actually going on in the U S in the surreal years of the Cold War.

[Guest]

I have read a few of Hershey's books like Hiroshima and Der Wall.   I read those as library books in my school years a long time ago....    But now I'm definitely going to take a look at those you mention, thanks !

[James Norwood]

On 9/27/2022 at 6:36 PM, Jonathan Cohen said:

I highly recommend his book "Oswald's Game" to anyone who has doubts about the one and only Lee Harvey Oswald's Russian-language abilities.

Published in 1983, Jean Davison’s Oswald’s Game is one of the most poorly researched and heavily biased studies of Oswald.  Instead of analyzing documents and eyewitness testimony and following the trail of evidence, the author starts with the blind acceptance of the Warren Commission’s conclusions, then works in reverse, cherry-picking details from the Warren Report to support the lone gunman theory.

Here are some of the gems from this book:

p. 180:  “[Oswald] saw himself as an experienced political operative who was qualified to work for the Cuban revolution as a soldier, lecturer, organizer, agitator, translator, or spy. ... He expected to be welcomed aboard, and he would then go out and distinguish himself in the Communist world and work his way up.”

pp. 241-42:  “At 12:30 P.M., Lee Harvey Oswald entered history.  Three shots from a sixth-floor Depository window hit Governor Connally once and the president twice."

p. 249:  “Marina could tell that he was guilty.  If he hadn’t been, she thought, he would have been loudly protesting his arrest.”

p. 253:  “Priscilla Johnson also believed he would never have confessed.  Soon after the assassination she wrote that if there was anything that stood out in the conversation she had with him in Moscow, ‘it was his truly compelling need…to think of himself as extraordinary.”

p. 254:  “On Sunday, November 24, 1963, Ruby rushed forward and shot him once in the abdomen. ... When the crowd outside heard what had happened, it let out a cheer. ... A raised fist was Oswald's last comment."

p. 280:  “There’s no compelling reason to believe anyone else was involved.” 

p. 281:  “The evidence ‘strongly suggested that Oswald attempted to murder General Walker and that he possessed a capacity for violence.’”

p. 296:  “It must have seemed to him that fate had spoken.  All his past life was a rehearsal for the moment when he decided to act out his violent fantasies against President Kennedy,”

****

For those who are gullible enough to buy the Warren Commission’s findings, Oswald’s Game is the perfect book to reinforce your faith in the integrity of the government, the FBI, and the media’s coverage of the assassination of President Kennedy.

Regarding the main topic of this thread, there has still been no evidence presented to demonstrate that Oswald learned the Russian language through a tutor of Polish extraction in Southern California while he was serving in the Marines.  If Oswald were a beginning student of Russian at this time, there should be a paper trail documenting where and with whom he was studying, as well as eyewitness accounts of him engaged in learning a new language.  Instead, the body of evidence (Rosaleen Quinn, Marines' testimony) points to an Oswald who was already fluent and capable of reading sophisticated Russian-language materials.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 9/27/2022 at 5:36 PM, Jonathan Cohen said:

... I highly recommend [Jean Davison's] book "Oswald's Game" to anyone who has doubts about the one and only Lee Harvey Oswald's Russian-language abilities.

 

And Jonathan wonders why people mistake him for an LNer.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, James Norwood said:

On 9/27/2022 at 5:36 PM, Jonathan Cohen said:

I highly recommend his book "Oswald's Game" to anyone who has doubts about the one and only Lee Harvey Oswald's Russian-language abilities.

2 hours ago, James Norwood said:

Published in 1983, Jean Davison’s Oswald’s Game is one of the most poorly researched and heavily biased studies of Oswald.

 

I believe he meant to say Norman Mailer's book, "Oswald's Tale."

Freudian slip?

 

[James Norwood]

Sandy,

If what he meant was Norman Mailer's Oswald's Tale, then I would offer almost the identical critique that I wrote of Davison's Oswald's Game.  Mailer paraphrases entire chunks of the Warren Report to support the lone gunman theory.  There is, however, some value in the interviews conducted by Mailer when he visited Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union.  The people whom he interviewed in Minsk uniformly acknowledged Oswald's deficiency in the Russian language.  Not only was it a struggle for him to communicate, but he showed little desire to improve his skills over two-and-a-half years.  One must look deeper into the notion that Oswald was a "player," which is casually used by both Mailer and Davison.  Specifically, Oswald was a spy who prepared over a lengthy period for disguising his fluency in the Russian language for his hosts.  Mailer's book is enormously frustrating in his inability to raise the question of why Oswald was speaking primarily in English during his stay in the Soviet Union. 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by James Norwood

[Jonathan Cohen]

10 minutes ago, James Norwood said:

Specifically, Oswald was a spy who prepared over a lengthy period for disguising his fluency in the Russian language for his hosts.  Mailer's book is enormously frustrating in his inability to raise the question of why Oswald was speaking primarily in English during his stay in the Soviet Union. 

There is not a shred of evidence Oswald did any "spying" during his time in the Soviet Union, despite him being under near constant surveillance by the KGB. You ask why Oswald was speaking primarily in English? Because he was still learning Russian! Why is that so hard to believe or understand?

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

There is not a shred of evidence Oswald did any "spying" during his time in the Soviet Union...

 

Oh really?

Then how do you explain this intelligence report Oswald wrote?

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0156a.htm

Here's the first paragraph:

The lives of Russian workers is governed, first and foremost, by the "collective," the smallest unit of authority in any given factory, plant, or enterprise. Sectional and shop cells form a highly organized and well supported political organization. These shop committees are in turn governed by the shop and section party chiefs who are directed by the factory or plant party secretary. This post carries officially the same amount of authority as the production director or president of the plant, but in reality it is the controlling organ of all activities at any industrial enterprise, whether political, industrial, or otherwise personal relations. The party secretary is responsible for politiical indoctrination of the workers, the discipline of members of the Communist party working at the plant, and the general conduct and appearance of all members.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

18 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Oh really?

Then how do you explain this intelligence report Oswald wrote?

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0156a.htm

This is not an "intelligence report" in any way, shape or form, and there is nothing out of the ordinary about Oswald writing about his experiences to this level of detail, especially if he hoped to one day publish them.

[Sandy Larsen]

19 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

This is not an "intelligence report" in any way, shape or form, and there is nothing out of the ordinary about Oswald writing about his experiences to this level of detail, especially if he hoped to one day publish them.

 

Oh sure, Jonathan... there's nothing unusual about writing in excruciating detail how society works in the enemy's country. Which we didn't know much about because, unlike in America and other free countries, foreigners weren't allowed to enter and roam about as they pleased.

 

[James Norwood]

2 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

There is not a shred of evidence Oswald did any "spying" during his time in the Soviet Union

After Oswald returned from the Soviet Union in 1962, he worked briefly in the Dallas graphic arts company of Jaggars, Chiles, Stovall where one of his co-workers spoke Russian.  Dennis Offstein was a technician who had studied Russian language for a full year at the Monterey Institute, yet Oswald ran circles around him in language proficiency.  In his testimony to the Warren Commission, Offstein recalled that Oswald gave him a detailed account of Soviet military maneuvers during his residency.  Specifically, Offstein remembered Oswald’s description of,

"the disbursement of the [Soviet] military units, saying that they didn't intermingle their armored divisions and infantry divisions and various units the way we do in the United States, that they would have all of their aircraft in one geographical location and their tanks in another geographical location, and their infantry in another, and he mentioned that in Minsk he never saw a vapor trail, indicating the lack of aircraft in the area."  (Warren Commission Hearings, Vol. 10, 202)

This perceptive account of the Soviet military activities squares with other detailed observations that Oswald brought back and recorded in detail.

In the testimony of Offstein alone, there was enough information to warrant an investigation of Oswald's ties to intelligence and the possibility that he was sent to the Soviet Union in 1959 in the capacity of what Offstein calls “an agent of the United States.”  But with the presence of Allen Dulles on the Warren Commission, Oswald’s records in the CIA were effectively screened from the committee. 

[James Norwood]

16 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

You ask why Oswald was speaking primarily in English? Because he was still learning Russian! Why is that so hard to believe or understand?

Wrong again, Jonathan.  You really ought to read more carefully the book you recommended but could not accurately recall the title:  Norman Mailer's Oswald's Tale.  In that book, Mailer's interviews with the locals in Minsk demonstrate that Oswald's spoken Russian was abysmal and did not improve substantially over the course of two-and-a-half years.  With his tutors, he appeared lackadaisical, uncooperative, and lazy.  After such a lengthy stay, there should be evidence of growth in language proficiency.  In Oswald's case, there was none and for the obvious reason that he was concealing his abilities to his hosts.

Edited September 30, 2022 by James Norwood

[David Lifton]

On 9/22/2022 at 5:04 AM, Tony Krome said:

First Google hit;

The Foreign Service Institute of the United States has determined that it takes about 1100 hours of study to reach fluency in Russian. If you're willing to study 3 hours every day, it could take you a year to reach that level.

Hi Tony: Re what the FSI "has determined"...:   Is there a specific citation that you might provide --i.e., from FSI--  that an author like myself might utilize and cite?  Thanks.  DSL  (P.S..: To avoid having to "find it" on the London Education Forum, please also send it directly to me at "dlifton@gmail.com").  Thanks!  DSL    

P. P.S.: Presently, I do not remember his name, but there was a JFK researcher (from the Boston area) who --decades ago -- was a pioneer of sorts in this area.  Specifically, he was the first (as I recall) who attempted to  "quantify" this research area; and to make  reasonable estimates about the "study time" LHO would have had to spend to achieve the linguistic fluency that he had achieved.  (To anyone reading this and who knows: please supply his name; and, perhaps, the title of his work).  DSL

Edited October 1, 2022 by David Lifton

[David Lifton]

On 9/29/2022 at 1:55 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Oh really?

Then how do you explain this intelligence report Oswald wrote?

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0156a.htm

Here's the first paragraph:

The lives of Russian workers is governed, first and foremost, by the "collective," the smallest unit of authority in any given factory, plant, or enterprise. Sectional and shop cells form a highly organized and well supported political organization. These shop committees are in turn governed by the shop and section party chiefs who are directed by the factory or plant party secretary. This post carries officially the same amount of authority as the production director or president of the plant, but in reality it is the controlling organ of all activities at any industrial enterprise, whether political, industrial, or otherwise personal relations. The party secretary is responsible for political indoctrination of the workers, the discipline of members of the Communist party working at the plant, and the general conduct and appearance of all members.

 

Agreed.  But there was another source: a book that LHO used (as a source); and he actually cited that source, by title, etc. in his manuscript.    The impression I got was that after his June 1962 return from the USSR, he was (perhaps) sitting in a library (perhaps Ft. Worth, or New Orleans) and availed himself of that particularly source, which was right there on a library shelf. DSL (10/01/22).

[Bob Ness]

7 hours ago, David Lifton said:

 

David have you looked into the possibility of LHO being trained at a localized base rather than Monterrey or privately? My grandfather was the CO of Skaggs Island, as was Louis Tordella (my GF worked with him throughout his career) and they almost certainly had language training in house (Skaggs was a self-contained base abt 450 miles North) for comm interception and direction finding during the Cold War. I believe Subic Bay is another possibility - I think my GF built the comm center there and would probably have language schools, especially during the beginning of the Cold War. Oswald's DD214 (I don't know if anything else is available) wouldn't have much as far as I know about any kind of special deployments, especially sensitive ones.

Quote

Louis W. Tordella - Wikipedia

Skaggs Island Naval Communication Station - Wikipedia

NAVSECGRU Stations past and present (navycthistory.com)

Most of this stuff would come under the umbrella of ONI rather than regular Navy which would cloak any information about the effort and add layers of fog. 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Bob Ness
Added link