The Killing Floor

[Paul Jolliffe]

16 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

The employees were all milling around so they could be released and Truly realized that Oswald--who he had just seen--was now missing. So he told the police they should check him out. It's not exactly suspicious. 

 

But Pat,

By Truly's own admission, he had not made a complete check of his employees. He did not know who was and who was not "milling around" and who was actually missing. He cleared Charles Givens because Truly had seen him shortly before the shots, walking on Elm. So why didn't he clear our "Oswald" with whom he had just (supposedly) had a memorable encounter on the second floor, far from the sniper's nest?

Truly singled out "Oswald" at a time when he admitted he did not know who was and who was not accounted for. 

Why?

[Sean Coleman]

Shelley & Lovelady walking west along the front of the TSBD? One with a quiff the other slightly balding?

[Paul Jolliffe]

9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I would just like to add something of note here.

I am an admirer of Bart Kamp.  And his work on the second floor encounter is utterly first rate.  There are real and solid reasons to doubt it occurred. And I brought this up in The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today.  

But one of the guidelines of criticism of any sort--books, plays, films--is that you determine the author's intent and then evaluate and analyze if he has achieved it and how he did or did not.  

RIch Negrete's intent is pretty clear.  He is out to make a visual translation of what happened to Vicki Adams and her cohorts after the assassination.  (He does bring in a couple of other matters--like Dolce--but this is just briefly.). He uses mounds of evidence  to show that there was a cover up of what they saw and heard, and why it occurred.  He then proves that the evidence of these three women is quite convincing on the matter that Oswald was not on the sixth floor at the time of the shooting, and therefore he could not have done what the Commission said he did.

The second floor lunch encounter is a whole different matter that I think is not under Negrete's scope.  His work does not impact that issue--which I think is even more complex than this one.  IMO, they are not related. We treated the subject in Oliver Stone's film as well, we did not get into the second floor encounter. 

Well said, Jim.

We are all (well, most of us here, anyway) in danger of getting derailed when the real point is simple: Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were on the stairs at a time when "Oswald" also had to have been on the stairs. They neither saw nor heard him. 

He wasn't there. 

And because the Warren Commission weasels (oops) "lawyers" went to enormous lengths to cover that up, they could then promote their false "solution" to the assassination. 

A politically expedient "solution" that satisfied all major powers in Washington, D.C., regardless of whether any were active conspirators or not.  

[Pat Speer]

27 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

But Pat,

By Truly's own admission, he had not made a complete check of his employees. He did not know who was and who was not "milling around" and who was actually missing. He cleared Charles Givens because Truly had seen him shortly before the shots, walking on Elm. So why didn't he clear our "Oswald" with whom he had just (supposedly) had a memorable encounter on the second floor, far from the sniper's nest?

Truly singled out "Oswald" at a time when he admitted he did not know who was and who was not accounted for. 

Why?

Because Oswald had been in the building, and had been the employee he'd last observed before he went up to the roof. Oswald's no longer being there was suspicious, while the others? Not so much. It is telling, moreover, that the DPD put out an APB on Givens. This supports that they were concerned about male warehouse workers who did not return after lunch. Oswald was even more suspicious. He'd left after the shooting.

What is revealing per se about all this is not that they focused on Oswald but that the media and Oswald-did-it crowd pushed for decades that they focused on Oswald because he was the ONLY employee who was missing. This wasn't exactly true. It was a shortcut to what was true--that he was the only one known to be in the building who was missing. But it got repeated for decades because those anxious to blame Oswald are also anxious to reduce nuance and detail. There is a desperate desire to paint this whole thing as black and white. And that says more about themselves than it does about what happened.

(Other common shortcuts: Oswald was a commie, and commies hate capitalists. Oswald was a wife-beater, and wife-beaters are vicious beasts. Oswald was a nobody, who was anxious to make a name for himself. Oswald was a loser, who hated men of class and privilege. The use of these shortcuts, IMO, is not necessarily the mark of a low intellect, so much as it is a sign of a lack of curiosity, and courage). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Paul Jolliffe]

38 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Because Oswald had been in the building, and had been the employee he'd last observed before he went up to the roof. Oswald's no longer being there was suspicious, while the others? Not so much. It is telling, moreover, that the DPD put out an APB on Givens. This supports that they were concerned about male warehouse workers who did not return after lunch. Oswald was even more suspicious. He'd left after the shooting.

What is revealing per se about all this is not that they focused on Oswald but that the media and Oswald-did-it crowd pushed for decades that they focused on Oswald because he was the ONLY employee who was missing. This wasn't exactly true. It was a shortcut to what was true--that he was the only one known to be in the building was missing. But it got repeated for decades because those anxious to blame Oswald are also anxious to reduce nuance and detail. There is a desperate desire to paint this whole thing as black and white. And that says more about themselves than it does about what happened.

(Other common shortcuts: Oswald was a commie, and commies hate capitalists. Oswald was a wife-beater, and wife-beaters are vicious beasts. Oswald was a nobody, who was anxious to make a name for himself. Oswald was a loser, who hated men of class and privilege. The use of these shortcuts, IMO, is not necessarily the mark of a low intellect, so much as it is a sign of a lack of curiosity, and courage). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pat Speer said: "Because Oswald had been in the building, and had been the employee he'd (Roy Truly) last observed before he went up to the roof."

"Oswald" was not the last employee Truly passed before he and Baker went to the roof of the TSBD. We all agree that Dorothy Garner saw Truly and Baker as they came up to the fourth floor. If he missed her because he was intent on getting to the roof as quickly as possible, then how could he know who was or was not on the upper floors?  There were several employees, male and female, on the fourth floor.  We all agree (I think) that Williams, Jarman and Norman were on the fifth floor. (Whether Bonnie Ray Williams was ever on the sixth floor after 12:00 noon is doubtful, but that's another topic.)

While racing up the stairs with Baker, Truly may or may not have observed any of them on the upper floors of the TSBD, but they were there, and Truly had good reason to believe they were there: he was the supervisor of the TSBD. 

By his own admission, Truly had not done made a thorough accounting of each and every possible male employee at the time he decided to alert the DPD to "Oswald's" absence. 

My question remains: at a time when Truly knew there were many people on the upper floors of the TSBD, not all of whom could he account for, why did he single out "Oswald"?

[Pat Speer]

8 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Pat Speer said: "Because Oswald had been in the building, and had been the employee he'd (Roy Truly) last observed before he went up to the roof."

"Oswald" was not the last employee Truly passed before he and Baker went to the roof of the TSBD. We all agree that Dorothy Garner saw Truly and Baker as they came up to the fourth floor. If he missed her because he was intent on getting to the roof as quickly as possible, then how could he know who was or was not on the upper floors?  There were several employees, male and female, on the fourth floor.  We all agree (I think) that Williams, Jarman and Norman were on the fifth floor. (Whether Bonnie Ray Williams was ever on the sixth floor after 12:00 noon is doubtful, but that's another topic.)

While racing up the stairs with Baker, Truly may or may not have observed any of them on the upper floors of the TSBD, but they were there, and Truly had good reason to believe they were there: he was the supervisor of the TSBD. 

By his own admission, Truly had not done made a thorough accounting of each and every possible male employee at the time he decided to alert the DPD to "Oswald's" absence. 

My question remains: at a time when Truly knew there were many people on the upper floors of the TSBD, not all of whom could he account for, why did he single out "Oswald"?

And the answer remains: Because he'd seen Oswald a few minutes before, and that Oswald had left afterwards. No one else had done so. 

[Paul Jolliffe]

Forgive me everyone for belaboring this point, but I just don't see how anyone can read the relevant portions of Roy Truly's WC testimony and not suspect that Truly had a hidden agenda.

As Truly himself said, he singled out "Oswald" not because he was the only one missing, but because as soon as Truly returned to the first floor ("it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that"), "Oswald" was the only one "that I could be certain right then was missing."

How Roy?

How could you be "certain"?

Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.
There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.
So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just have an address in Irving?
Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas address. I didn't know he was living away from his family.
Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown on this application, Exhibit 496?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?
Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing.

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

7 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

And the answer remains: Because he'd seen Oswald a few minutes before, and that Oswald had left afterwards. No one else had done so. 

The question is not whether "Oswald" left or was the only to do so, the question is how in such a short time ("moments or minutes") did Truly know that with such certainty?

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

The question is not whether "Oswald" left or was the only to do so, the question is how in such a short time ("moments or minutes") did Truly know that with such certainty?

Truly admitted under oath that he did not know the whereabouts of all of "his boys":

"Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not . . ."

So why "Oswald", especially within "moments or minutes"?

[Joe Bauer]

Wonder at what point in their police questioning employees Jarman, Williams and Norman may have told their police questioners they actually heard the rifle blasts and falling shells directly above their heads on the 6th floor?

If I was a police questioner I would have pulled them in for much more detailed questioning right there. No other TXSCB employees were in a location so close to the shooter.

Where they taken to police headquarters?

Edited October 22, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

The question is not whether "Oswald" left or was the only to do so, the question is how in such a short time ("moments or minutes") did Truly know that with such certainty?

It wasn't a short time. There seems to be some confusion on the timeline. As I recall Truly went up to Fritz as he was leaving the building. That was 1:45 or after, right? So he had an hour to figure out Oswald was missing.

I also seem to recall that Jarman said something about this to the HSCA--that he had pointed out Oswald's absence to Truly. But, unfortunately, my copy of the transcript is too blurry to read. 

No, scratch that. I took a quick look through the pdf posted by Jean Paul and couldn't find what I was looking for. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Paul Jolliffe]

4 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Wonder at what point in the police questioning of the employees Jarman, Williams and Norman may have told their police questioners they actually heard the rifle blasts and falling shells directly above their heads on the 6th floor?

If I was a police questioner I would have pulled them in for much more detailed questioning right there. No other TXSCB employees were in a location so close to the shooter.

Where they taken to police headquarters?

Joe,

Here is a picture of Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce and William Shelley entering a squad car. I don't know exactly the time. 

What is curious to me is that Bonnie Ray Williams first day statement said nothing about being on the sixth floor around 12:00 noon. It was only AFTER Wiliams was interviewed by the FBI did the sixth floor scenario emerge.

[Paul Jolliffe]

5 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

It wasn't a short time. There seems to be some confusion on the timeline. As I recall Truly went up to Fritz as he was leaving the building. That was 1:45 or after, right? So he had an hour to figure out Oswald was missing.

I also seem to recall that Jarman said something about this to the HSCA--that he had pointed out Oswald's absence to Truly. But, unfortunately, my copy of the transcript is too blurry to read. 

Pat,

You and I agree that Truly may not have notified Fritz until roughly an hour had passed. But that's not the point.

The key point is that Truly had made the decision very, very quickly to identify "Oswald", and "Oswald" alone, as a suspect. Even at a time when he, Truly, knew that some other of "his boys" were missing! 

He said it!

He knew others were missing, yet he went after "Oswald" only!

Read his own words. (Cited in post above.)  Truly said he believed "Oswald" was missing within minutes (or maybe "moments") of returning to the first floor. He said he consulted Shelley and Campbell and then "It was so quick after that." 

How did Truly come to suspect only "Oswald" so soon, long before Truly later talked to Fritz?

 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

It wasn't a short time. There seems to be some confusion on the timeline. As I recall Truly went up to Fritz as he was leaving the building. That was 1:45 or after, right? So he had an hour to figure out Oswald was missing.

I also seem to recall that Jarman said something about this to the HSCA--that he had pointed out Oswald's absence to Truly. But, unfortunately, my copy of the transcript is too blurry to read. 

Was it this one ?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14ehe1U2NRMt4Usp5qkf8WedLSxoohL7m/view

I remember this one because he said Oswald was "late" that morning ?

In first I couldn't match that with what WBF said, unless LHO had something in between (hiding the curtain rods or so)

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Pat Speer]

18 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Was it this one ?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14ehe1U2NRMt4Usp5qkf8WedLSxoohL7m/view

I remember this one because he said Oswald was "late" that morning ?

In first I couldn't match that with what WBF said, unless LHO had something in between (hiding the curtain rods or so)

 

Thanks. I copied a lot of those HSCA interviews off another site, seeing as the MFF site never got around to putting them online. (There are thousands of HSCA interviews and FBI files the MFF never got around to putting online--which begs the question...if they succeed in their lawsuit and get access to the remaining documents...will they actually make them available to non-members? I suspect not...)