The 2nd-Floor Baker/Oswald Encounter Has Been Debunked

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

Exactly - as has been mentioned.

LHO liked JFK.  What would be his reason to not take the opportunity to see the POTUS pass by the TSBD and instead - just loll around inside on the first floor, eating?

Oh, maybe it was his biography: former marine with access to classified U-2 intel, who, allegedly, turned defector, and having returned home, faced no legal repercussions;  landed a job as a JS employee with possible access to classified info; established his bona fides as a FPCC officer/activist passing out leaflets with Banister's address; offering his help to Bringuier as a would be "soldier of fortune" to help the DRE; called a specific FBI agent after he, Ozzie, is jailed for the "street brawl"; reportedly, on more than one occasion, passed documents to FBI agents.

We are familiar with the list - it could be longer.

LHO was immersed in the world of intelligence and seemingly, fairly cozy (less Hosty) with the FBI

Much evidence after almost six decades, indeed, factual/provable - and tons and tons more - though maybe circumstantial, quite telling - all pointing to it.

Has there ever been anyone else, just 24 years old, ostensibly just an average "Joe Blow" with Oswald's history?

Nothing to see folks; move along.  Lee was just "off his rocker".

Regardless of the depth of his knowledge of and/or his involvement (as a player) in the JFK Assassination, at a minimum, it was certainly enough that he left work within a few minutes after.

Maybe you were alive and at work on 11/22/63.  If you were, I'll bet you didn't leave work almost immediately, go home, change your clothes, "pack your gat", and go to the movies, in a 600 or so seat theatre with only 20 or so patrons in attendance, and serially sit down precisely next three or four people, moving on after several seconds to the next.  And Oswald was quite bookish, and IMO saw himself as a bit of an intellectual.  Does anyone know if he routinely went to movie matinees that featured war films? 

Over the past almost 60 years, I have talked to 100s of people of every age and from every walk of life, and no one did.

When they heard the news report, every one of them, at the least, exchanged some brief thoughts/words of shock/grief/outrage/despair over what happened, and then went home as soon as they were able/allowed - to family or to friends to listen to the radio or watch TV. 

Oswald stayed in the TSBD (ala Prayer Man, I will allow that he may have stepped out for seconds, no one noticing in the excitement of the moment, before ducking right back in). 

Remember, the motorcade was running late.  If LHO had been told a "disturbance" would happen at "X time" and he would receive a call at that specific time, and he didn't - he could've gone outside, very momentarily, to check as to why.

He was on the first floor "eating and having a coke" - for a reason.

My vote continues to be - waiting for that aforementioned phone call.

 

Maybe so. 

I suspect more substantial involvement in a false-flag op. But at this late date, and with LHO dead...just IMHO. 

I wonder if LHO knew where was the Mannlicher-Carcano?  

Perhaps he shut off the power...

BTW, there seems to be two accounts. Victoria Adams did and did not say she saw the TSBD elevator cable moving, as she descended the stairs. 

If in fact Adams saw the cable moving, then that would be after the power was turned back on. That would be about one minute or a little more after the shots.

Meaning it is possible LHO simply preceded her down the stairs....

 

[Paul Cummings]

2 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Maybe so. 

I suspect more substantial involvement in a false-flag op. But at this late date, and with LHO dead...just IMHO. 

I wonder if LHO knew where was the Mannlicher-Carcano?  

Perhaps he shut off the power...

BTW, there seems to be two accounts. Victoria Adams did and did not say she saw the TSBD elevator cable moving, as she descended the stairs. 

If in fact Adams saw the cable moving, then that would be after the power was turned back on. That would be about one minute or a little more after the shots.

Meaning it is possible LHO simply preceded her down the stairs....

 

I don't believe LHO shut off the power and if not mistaken the Dal-Tex power went out as well.

[Benjamin Cole]

10 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

I don't believe LHO shut off the power and if not mistaken the Dal-Tex power went out as well.

That is interesting. Any possible cites on the Dal-Tex situation? 

Of course, many posit there was shooter in the Dal-Tex building too, as well as the mysterious Eugene Brading....

An op MO? 

[Paul Cummings]

15 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

That is interesting. Any possible cites on the Dal-Tex situation? 

Of course, many posit there was shooter in the Dal-Tex building too, as well as the mysterious Eugene Brading....

An op MO? 

Another favorite area of people wanting to use the phone. 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 10/24/2022 at 6:44 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

IMHO, I am uneasy with the "LHO was on the street or TSBD steps " when shots rang out 11/22.

 

What do you make of the two interrogation reports stating that Oswald's  went outside after lunch to watch the presidential parade?

DPD Report -- Hosty's handwritten notes:

[Oswald] stated he was present for work at the T.S.B.D. on the morning of the 22nd and at noon went to lunch. He went to 2nd floor to get a coca cola to eat with lunch and returned to 1st floor to eat lunch. Then he went outside to watch [Presidential] Parade.

FBI Report #3

... [Oswald] took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home.

 

Those two reports corroborate one another. And the following report corroborates the first two, excepts ends with Oswald remaining on the main floor after lunch without any mention of going outside:

FBI Report #1

Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building.

 

Don't you agree that Oswald likely did say he went outside to watch the presidential parade? I mean, why would two of those in on the interrogation record such a thing if Oswald didn't say it? I can see why one or more of them would leave it out. But to insert it makes no sense.

 

[Allen Lowe]

On 10/19/2022 at 1:38 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Other ways the 2nd floor encounter has been debunked:

1. In his first-day statement, Officer Baker never mentions an encounter with Oswald. Though he DID mention a similar encounter with another man on a different floor. You'd think that he'd want to mention the man taken into custody. LOL
2. Officer Baker supposedly made a mad dash for the TSBD, and up the steps in time to encounter Oswald on the second floor. But the Darnell film makes it is easy to prove that he wasn't headed toward the TSBD door at all. He was headed toward the corner of Houston and Elm. (See this.) But the WC had to make Baker enter the TSBD quickly to get their timing right.
3. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady kept changing their stories regarding seeing Vickie Adams as she reached the first floor. And there is proof of some of their lies. (For example, Shelley first said that he ran across to the concrete island where he met Gloria Calvery. The Darnell film is consistent with that. But for the WC he said that he stayed on the steps for ~3 minutes for Calvery to arrive at the steps. This is inconsistent with the Darnell film, but it helped the WC discredit Vicki Adams.)
4. The Darnell film shows that Gloria Calvery arrived at the TSBD stairway within 30 seconds after the last shot. Yet both Shelley AND Lovelady estimated the time to be 3 minutes! I can see people getting the time wrong, but having it off by exactly the same number sounds like witness coaching to me!
5. Not surprisingly, Vickie Adams told Barry Earnest that she did not see Shelley and Lovelady upon reaching the first floor.
6. The Stroud document shows how introduction of the 2nd-floor encounter fabrication introduced a new unforeseen problem... not a surprising effect of mixing fiction with fact.
7. And there's more! Read Bart Kamp's Anatomy of the Second-Floor Lunchroom Encounter. Where all of his evidence and analyses are thoroughly documented.

 

This is great work, and though I’ve known about it for a while it’s nice to see it so succinctly expressed. Over at Greg Parkers forum  they’ve  also done some very nice work on this.

[Benjamin Cole]

59 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

What do you make of the two interrogation reports stating that Oswald's  went outside after lunch to watch the presidential parade?

DPD Report -- Hosty's handwritten notes:

[Oswald] stated he was present for work at the T.S.B.D. on the morning of the 22nd and at noon went to lunch. He went to 2nd floor to get a coca cola to eat with lunch and returned to 1st floor to eat lunch. Then he went outside to watch [Presidential] Parade.

FBI Report #3

... [Oswald] took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home.

 

Those two reports corroborate one another. And the following report corroborates the first two, excepts ends with Oswald remaining on the main floor after lunch without any mention of going outside:

FBI Report #1

Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building.

 

Don't you agree that Oswald likely did say he went outside to watch the presidential parade? I mean, why would two of those in on the interrogation record such a thing if Oswald didn't say it? I can see why one or more of them would leave it out. But to insert it makes no sense.

 

Sandy Larsen:

Well...are we talking about LHO, the CIA asset since (at least) 1959? 

Are we talking about the FBI, known to fabricate affidavits and evidence? 

If LHO was a CIA asset (I think he was), and had a witting or an unwitting role in the JFKA, what would he say? 

LHO could hardly say, "Oh, my job was to cut off power inside the TSBD, and that is what I did. I had no idea my fellow CIA assets would effect the JFKA." 

Or, "I shot at JFKA once and intentionally missed, as instructed by David Atlee Phillips. A replay of the Walker shooting. Then I was made a patsy." 

As stated, I see no photo of LHO outside on 11/22. We know he was inside the TSBD most of the morning.

We know no witness has ever said they saw LHO when shots rang out. 

LHO becomes invisible during the JFKA. So where was he? Really, we don't know. 

Adams either did or did not see the elevator cable moving when she descended the stairs. She told the WC she did not---but maybe she did, and the WC falsified the interview?

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Adams.pdf

The Prayer Man photo...sort of looks like a woman.  No one on those steps saw LHO, or at least said so. 

I think we are left with conjectures. 

But if LHO was a CIA asset in good standing for four years...what is the upshot from that? 

If JFK was murdered by the CIA or rogue elements of the CIA, and LHO was CIA...what does that suggest? 

If LHO goes home and gets a gun post-JFKA, and appears to try to meet someone in the Texas Theater...and then is murdered to shut him up two days later by the mobbed-up, gun-runner to Cuba former FBI informant Ruby...what does the suggest? 

To me, it looks like LHO was involved in the JFKA up to his eyeballs...but was turned into a loner-loser-leftie by the WC. 

Just IMHO...and yes, my version has a lot of conjecture in it also. 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

40 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Sandy Larsen:

Well...are we talking about LHO, the CIA asset since (at least) 1959? 

Are we talking about the FBI, known to fabricate affidavits and evidence? 

If LHO was a CIA asset (I think he was), and had a witting or an unwitting role in the JFKA, what would he say? 

LHO could hardly say, "Oh, my job was to cut off power inside the TSBD, and that is what I did. I had no idea my fellow CIA assets would effect the JFKA." 

Or, "I shot at JFKA once and intentionally missed, as instructed by David Atlee Phillips. A replay of the Walker shooting. Then I was made a patsy." 

As stated, I see no photo of LHO outside on 11/22. We know he was inside the TSBD most of the morning.

We know no witness has ever said they saw LHO when shots rang out. 

LHO becomes invisible during the JFKA. So where was he? Really, we don't know. 

Adams either did or did not see the elevator cable moving when she descended the stairs. She told the WC she did not---but maybe she did, and the WC falsified the interview?

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Adams.pdf

The Prayer Man photo...sort of looks like a woman.  No one on those steps saw LHO, or at least said so. 

I think we are left with conjectures. 

But if LHO was a CIA asset in good standing for four years...what is the upshot from that? 

If JFK was murdered by the CIA or rogue elements of the CIA, and LHO was CIA...what does that suggest? 

If LHO goes home and gets a gun post-JFKA, and appears to try to meet someone in the Texas Theater...and then is murdered to shut him up two days later by the mobbed-up, gun-runner to Cuba former FBI informant Ruby...what does the suggest? 

To me, it looks like LHO was involved in the JFKA up to his eyeballs...but was turned into a loner-loser-leftie by the WC. 

Just IMHO...and yes, my version has a lot of conjecture in it also. 

 

 

Ben,

Thanks for your reply. But you didn't answer my question. It's a simple one. Here it is again:

Based on the three largely-corroborating quotes from Oswald's interrogations that I copied for you above...

Don't you agree that Oswald likely did say he went outside to watch the presidential parade? I mean, why would two of those in on the interrogation record such a thing if Oswald didn't say it? I can see why one or more of them would leave it out. But to insert it makes no sense.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

18 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Ben,

Thanks for your reply. But you didn't answer my question. It's a simple one. Here it is again:

Based on the three largely-corroborating quotes from Oswald's interrogations that I copied for you above...

Don't you agree that Oswald likely did say he went outside to watch the presidential parade? I mean, why would two of those in on the interrogation record such a thing if Oswald didn't say it? I can see why one or more of them would leave it out. But to insert it makes no sense.

 

SL--

Yes, it first blush it appears LHO said he went outside and watched the parade, after obtaining a coke. 

I think Pat Speer has a quote from LHO concerning his meeting Baker and Truly, but I could be mistaken. 

....

But, if the FBI can alter and monkey up documents....

Riddle me his: Suppose the FBI knew that Baker and Truly had in fact encountered LHO inside the TBSD in the near-immediate aftermath of the JFKA.

So...the FBI phonies up an LHO statement that he, LHO, said he was outside. 

So...the FBI knows LHO was inside the TSBD, not outside, and they have him on record as a xxxx. 

And in fact, there are no photos of LHO outside, and no one saw him outside. 

So LHO is "exposed" as a xxxx---meaning he has something to hide. 

Maybe LHO said no such thing.

That is the tortuous path we all go down when we decide FBI documents are real or phonied up. 

Side, side note: Did LHO talk at all? He is reputed to be smart and crafty. Why did he not say, "I am keeping quiet until represented by counsel." 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Yes, it first blush it appears LHO said he went outside and watched the parade, after obtaining a coke.

But, if the FBI can alter and monkey up documents...

 

The FBI changing his alibi from being outside to inside makes no sense.

First of all, the FBI had no idea if anybody still had a picture of Oswald being outside. There was no way for them to know if every photo had been confiscated.

Second, an alibi of Oswald being outside would only serve to prompt people to pore through every photo available in hopes of finding Oswald.

Third, it wasn't like the FBI needed to invent an Oswald statement showing he was a l.i.a.r. Half the things they fabricated made Oswald out as a l.i.a.r. They said that the evidence showed he was in the 6th floor sniper's nest. Presto! Oswald's a l.i.a.r.

 

On the other hand, removing the references to being outside -- which they did do! -- does makes sense. So that people wouldn't go poring through photographs.

So, therefore, as I said, Oswald did say he went outside. And the WC/FBI covered it up.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

25 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

The FBI changing his alibi from being outside to inside makes no sense.

First of all, the FBI had no idea if anybody still had a picture of Oswald being outside. There was no way for them to know if every photo had been confiscated.

Second, an alibi of Oswald being outside would only serve to prompt people to pore through every photo available in hopes of finding Oswald.

Third, it wasn't like the FBI needed to invent an Oswald statement showing he was a l.i.a.r. Half the things they fabricated made Oswald out as a l.i.a.r. They said that the evidence showed he was in the 6th floor sniper's nest. Presto! Oswald's a l.i.a.r.

 

On the other hand, removing the references to being outside -- which they did do! -- does makes sense. So that people wouldn't go poring through photographs.

So, therefore, as I said, Oswald did say he went outside. And the WC/FBI covered it up.

 

Oh, you are probably correct. I defer to you on this topic. 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

12 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Oh, you are probably correct. I defer to you on this topic.

 

What? Really? I actually changed somebody's mind?

I've never seen that happen before.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

30 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

What? Really? I actually changed somebody's mind?

I've never seen that happen before.

 

Yes, I feel like a weakling. Galvanizing my resolve and gathering my strength for further exchanges. 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Benjamin Cole writes:

Quote

That is the tortuous path we all go down when we decide FBI documents are real or phonied up.

Side, side note: Did LHO talk at all? He is reputed to be smart and crafty. Why did he not say, "I am keeping quiet until represented by counsel."

It's reasonable to assume that the surviving first-hand accounts of Oswald's interrogations have some truth to them, even though this evidence was misrepresented in the Warren Report. Oswald appears to have provided the FBI and the police with the following sequence of his movements:

1. He began his lunch break at around mid-day.
2. He went down to the first floor to eat his lunch in the domino room.
3. He went up to the second-floor lunch room to obtain a drink.
4. He returned to the domino room and continued to eat his lunch.
5. He saw James Jarman and Harold Norman enter the rear of the building.
6. He went out to watch the parade.
7. While outside, he heard Bill Shelley state that there would be no more work that day.

Corroboration exists for most of these claims:

• Several employees claimed that the lunch break began at around 11.45.
• Charles Givens (CD 5, p.329), Eddie Piper (WCHE, vol.6, p.383), and Bill Shelley (WCHE, vol.6, p.328) saw Oswald on the first floor during the lunch break.
• James Jarman (WCHE, vol.3, pp.201–202) and Harold Norman (WCHE, vol.3, pp.189–190) stated that they entered the rear of the building at around 12.25 (for the timing of this incident and a fuller discussion of Oswald's alibi, see http://22november1963.org.uk/lee-harvey-oswald-alibi).
• Carolyn Arnold claimed in her first statement (CD 5, p.41) to have seen Oswald just inside the front entrance.

Quote

And in fact, there are no photos of LHO outside

There are two films that show someone who resembles Oswald, standing in the doorway shortly after the shooting. If that figure turns out to be Oswald, it would be corroboration for an important part of his alibi.

Quote

So LHO is "exposed" as a xxxx---meaning he has something to hide.

At least some of what Oswald claimed to have done is corroborated by other employees. Oswald appears to have been open and honest with the FBI and the police about his movements at around the time of the assassination. 

If that's the case, it leaves open the possibility that Oswald had no advance knowledge that anyone would be shooting at JFK that day.

On the subject of this thread, it also leaves open the possibility that the second-floor encounter did not happen and was a contrivance based on a genuine encounter between Oswald and a police officer at the front of the building when Oswald was leaving the premises.

[Benjamin Cole]

1. He began his lunch break at around mid-day.
2. He went down to the first floor to eat his lunch in the domino room.
3. He went up to the second-floor lunch room to obtain a drink.
4. He returned to the domino room and continued to eat his lunch.
5. He saw James Jarman and Harold Norman enter the rear of the building.
6. He went out to watch the parade.
7. While outside, he heard Bill Shelley state that there would be no more work that day. ---JB, re LHO

Well...except not one person said they saw LHO when shots rang out. 

There are no photos of LHO anywhere outside the TSBD post-JFKA. No one says they saw LHO outside. The beyond-blurry images of someone who might be LHO or a middle-aged Latin woman...just don't cut it. 

In the above version, LHO must have heard shots sometime...but he indicates he was inside eating lunch when shots rang out. Or not?

LHO goes outside to watch the parade...after shots are fired? And Shelley then says no more work? 

Why was LHO inside the TSBD when JFK rolled by, when LHO was photographer, an admirer of JFK, and deeply interested in politics? 

Why did LHO go home and get a gun after Shelley said no more work? (taking a taxi no less, and dropping off a couple blocks from his abode).

And LHO then enters a theater and tries to meet someone?

You know, on an afternoon off after the JFKA, a book-packer man likes to get a gun and then watch movies.  With the few odd other people in Dallas who want to watch a movie on 11/22?  (Who were those people anyway? And why was the Texas Theater even open?) 

Why was LHO murdered two days later by a mobbed-up Ruby, who had run guns to Cuba and been an FBI informant?  (And possibly been involved in some jeep and gun deals with LHO).

Really, if you believe the CIA did the JFKA, and that LHO was a CIA asset...and LHO went home and got a gun post-JFKA, and then was murdered to shut him up....

Seems to jell a bit, no? 

LHO's story about being in the first-floor lunchroom and going outside...just does not hold water. Watching movies? Getting shot by a mobster? 

LHO was in the JFKA up to his eyeballs...the question is witting or unwitting...

I suspect unwitting, but then again, we have no problems believing all sorts of crimes by CIA assets, including the JFKA...why give LHO a pass? 

Yes, the WC narrative was decided within 24-48 hours post-JFKA, and that was that a leftie-loner-loser did the JFKA. But that does not exonerate LHO.