Is it plausible Bonnie Ray Williams was interrupted during his lunch, and ordered to leave the 6th floor ?

[Guest]

I assumed he had finished his lunch, dropped the remnants in the bag, and left the bag under the 2-wheel cart.

But - apparently - I was wrong :

1) 11-23-63 Deputy Sheriff L.Mooney "..... On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken.....".

2) 11-22-63 A.D. McCurley "....  along with a half-eaten piece of chicken that was laying on a cardboard carton....".

3) 7WH97 Detective Les Montgomery "...there was one piece of chicken on a box and there was a piece on the floor  just kind of scattered around right there..."

4) W/C FRITZ.  "At the other window above there, where people in days past, you know had eaten their lunches, they left chicken bones and pieces of bread, all kinds of things up and down there."    PS : Fritz was stating the leftovers were not left in the snipers nest, but at some distance from it,  the way he describes the leftover-spot... probably exaggerating when he made it look like it was a waste-dump that was used for days....  

5) Patrolman E.D. Brewer (looking over Haygood's shoulder ?) next to the sniper's nest window he sees "...paper lunch sack and some chicken bones or partially eaten piece of chicken, or a piece of chicken...a cold drink bottle, soda pop bottle." (6WH307)

 

Pictures (Alya/Studebaker)* do show what seems to be a bag on the floor (under the cart).  But the above statements say the remnants were not in the bag, and it seems he was not done eating IMO

So, Is it at least plausible Bonnie Ray Williams was interrupted during his lunch, and ordered to leave the 6th floor ?

*Pat shows the pictures on his website under chapter 4c in "The Other Bag" part (at approx. 1/3 of the page): https://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4c-shining-a-light-on-day  

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

In his first statement 11/22 he doesn't even mention eating on 6th, it's from 1st to 5th

In his second statement 11/23 het says going to 6th for a few minutes (nothing about him having his lunch at 6th)

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
saving space

[Guest]

In his WC Testimony

Mr. WILLIAMS "I don’t remember exactly, but I think I put some of them back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down".[emph.added]

So it's back to the early statements, it seems he was not finished, and the half-finished lunch was still on the boxes, not in the bag...

 

   

[Guest]

Here comes Truly and Shelley with the FBI...  

Darn.  Who's running this show...

Ref. dates are May 22 and 25, 1964 !

Remember, Williams in the beginning was rather evasive about what happened on 6th (please note, I would be the same at his age !!).  

There's more, but I'll give it a rest for now...

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
saving space

[Paul Jolliffe]

Good question, Jean Paul.

It is remarkable that Bonnie Ray Williams was on the very floor from which at least one, and probably two men were seen by witnesses on the ground just a few minutes later. 

Williams alleged that the sixth floor was very quiet: so quiet was "one of the reasons he left."

Mr. DULLES. I would like to ask one question here. When you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth floor with you?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything. 
Mr. DULLES. You did not see anything?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not see anything.
Mr. DULLES. You were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. During that period of from 12 o'clock about to--10 or 15 minutes after?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I felt like I was all alone. That is one of the reasons I left--because it was so quiet.

"One of the reasons"? ("Do tell us what the other reasons were, Mr. Williams". Just joking, of course. Joseph Ball did not ask.)

Further, according to Williams, the FBI had shortened the time he spent on the sixth floor - he claimed he never told them he was up there for only three minutes. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.
Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.
Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.

Williams testified that he could NOT see the "sniper's nest" from his lunch spot on the sixth floor- the boxes were stacked nearly to the top of the window. 

Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.

Yet we know that there were men on the sixth floor within moments of Williams' departure.

Were they there before he left?

How could they not be? After all, they were conspirators, and their job was to plant the evidence and arrange the scene of the sniper's nest. 

How hard could it have been for conspirators to act in an officious manner and intimidate a 23-year-old, not very well educated (but observant and maybe quite savvy) black man such as Bonnie Ray Williams in Dallas in 1963? The assassination had not yet happened at that moment, so as far as Williams knew, these men were legitimate - maybe something to do with the president's security team. (Just a guess, but I bet that would have worked before the arrival of the motorcade.)

How did these men get to the sixth floor?

My guess is by the west freight elevator - the same one used by Jarman and Norman to get to the fifth floor. But remember, the west elevator was the one which could be "called", that is, someone on a different floor (the ground floor, say) could press a button and it would respond. Unlike the east elevator which required the operator to be in the elevator itself. 

Curiously, Allen Dulles himself nearly let the cat out of the bag when he asked Williams whether the elevators were sufficiently noisy that Williams would have noticed if someone else brought the west elevator to the sixth floor:

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question in connection with your last question? Did you hear either of the elevators going up or down while you were eating your meal?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the elevators at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. If an elevator had come to that floor, would you have heard it then?
Mr. WILLIAMS. That all depends--
Mr. DULLES. Were they noisy elevators? The operation of the doors and so forth?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The elevator that I came up on to the sixth floor, if you would listen--say you were listening for the boss, you could hear, because you would be paying attention. The elevator is worked by hand pedal. When you release the hand pedal it makes a noise. It bangs or maybe you can hear the old elevator when it is first coming up. But at that time I did not hear anything.

Note that Dulles interrupted Williams just as Williams was about to distinguish between the noise levels of the east and west freight elevators. Dulles did not want Williams to state on the record that the west elevator was quieter and would not necessarily be heard ("That all depends--")

Finally, when asked the key question three different times, Williams refused to swear that the west elevator was on the fifth floor when he descended via the east freight elevator from the sixth floor around 12:15:

 

Mr. BALL. The other day, when I talked to you in Dallas, on Friday 20 March--
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And at that time were you able did you remember which elevator it was?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Which elevator I had?
Mr. BALL. What you had come down from six to five on.
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, I first said I wasn't sure. After the fellows said they brought the west elevator up, I said I must have the east elevator.
Mr. BALL. Is it fair to say now that you don't have any definite memory as to whether it was the east or west elevator?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that would be true.
Mr. BALL. But you did bring an elevator up?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Now, when you came down there and got off that elevator, did you notice that the other elevator was also on that floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I didn't notice it.
Mr. BALL. Did you, later?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; as I remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember.

 

So, from Williams own testimony, there was no confirmation that the west freight elevator, the one which could be "called" independently, the quiet one, was on the fifth floor just before the assassination. 

Further, Williams claimed he could not have seen anyone in the sixth-floor southeast corner, and when he was about to explain why he wouldn't have necessarily heard anyone's arrival via the west freight elevator, Allen Dulles cut him off!

 

So yes, Jean Paul, I would say there is a very real possibility men arrived on the sixth floor via the west freight elevator, that Bonnie Ray Williams was smart enough after the fact to tailor his testimony to the emerging "official" narrative, but that he really had seen or heard someone or something on the sixth floor around 12:15.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Pat has some interesting quotes from the 10-20-77  HSCA interview with Norman (https://www.patspeer.com/chapter-8-pieces-of-work) :

----------------------------

(When asked a bit later if he saw Oswald come in to work) "No...There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the president coming to town. Then when he turn around to leave, you know how a kid would do when he's playing cowboys and Indians?...He did like this: 'pow.'" (When asked if he meant that Oswald behaved as if he were a "cowboy firing two guns') "Yes."

(When asked if he knew anyone who'd bought their lunch from the lunch truck on the day of the shooting) "Williams was the only one that I knew that bought some chicken from that truck." 

-----------------------------

So Williams bought his lunch from the foodtruck, I suppose that explains how he lost contact with his 2 friends, he went up to 6th and they to 5th

I'm gonna have to read some things once more, some things are what they have to be, Walt Brown was close  

Edited October 26, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Pat has some interesting quotes from the 10-20-77  HSCA interview with Norman (https://www.patspeer.com/chapter-8-pieces-of-work) :

----------------------------

(When asked a bit later if he saw Oswald come in to work) "No...There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the president coming to town. Then when he turn around to leave, you know how a kid would do when he's playing cowboys and Indians?...He did like this: 'pow.'" (When asked if he meant that Oswald behaved as if he were a "cowboy firing two guns') "Yes."

(When asked if he knew anyone who'd bought their lunch from the lunch truck on the day of the shooting) "Williams was the only one that I knew that bought some chicken from that truck." 

-----------------------------

So Williams bought his lunch from the foodtruck, I suppose that explains how he lost contact with his 2 friends, he went up to 6th and they to 5th

I'm gonna have to read some things once more, some things are what they have to be, Walt Brown was close  

Thanks for the link to Pat's stuff. There are some good quotes there. Check this out from a witness who knew Bonnie Ray Williams:

(7-28-95 Sixth Floor Museum oral history of assassination witness John Templin) (When asked if he ever discussed the assassination with other eyewitnesses) "Over the years, I have. I met a gentleman named Williams. No, Bonnie Ray Williams was his name. Bonnie worked here at the building. I met him at General Motors, parts depot, after I started driving for Merchant’s Freight Lines here in Dallas and had some conversation with him. And Bonnie Ray, he was always... he was scared because so many people had died that had anything to do with that thing mysteriously. And he was a little bit leery all the time about it...He really didn’t offer anything other than he was here, and he was on the fifth floor. And that’s about it. He didn’t elaborate on it that much."

If Bonnie Ray Williams really did see and/or was "ordered" off the sixth floor while eating his lunch before the assassination, then I'll bet he was scared . . . 

 

[Paul Brancato]

15 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Thanks for the link to Pat's stuff. There are some good quotes there. Check this out from a witness who knew Bonnie Ray Williams:

(7-28-95 Sixth Floor Museum oral history of assassination witness John Templin) (When asked if he ever discussed the assassination with other eyewitnesses) "Over the years, I have. I met a gentleman named Williams. No, Bonnie Ray Williams was his name. Bonnie worked here at the building. I met him at General Motors, parts depot, after I started driving for Merchant’s Freight Lines here in Dallas and had some conversation with him. And Bonnie Ray, he was always... he was scared because so many people had died that had anything to do with that thing mysteriously. And he was a little bit leery all the time about it...He really didn’t offer anything other than he was here, and he was on the fifth floor. And that’s about it. He didn’t elaborate on it that much."

If Bonnie Ray Williams really did see and/or was "ordered" off the sixth floor while eating his lunch before the assassination, then I'll bet he was scared . . . 

 

I wonder if journalists over the years tried to interview Bonnie Ray Williams. If I knew something about an assassination and was scared to talk, I might at some point have written something down, or talked to my wife or child later in life. 

[Pat Speer]

Now there's also a dispute about where the piece of chicken was found. Some said it was on a box in the sniper's nest itself, and not two aisles over. To give it an innocent spin...perhaps Williams went over to the SN window to get a better look at Norman and Jarman--to make sure it was them. He then just left 1he chicken and rushed over to the stairs. After which the sniper came out of the shadows...

OR...perhaps it's as simple as Williams' being threatened--"If you tell anyone you saw me up here I'll tell them you were in on it and ratted me out because you wanted more money" or some such thing. It's intriguing that Norman and Jarman spoke to the HSCA, while Williams (and Givens) did not. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Now there's also a dispute about where the piece of chicken was found. Some said it was on a box in the sniper's nest itself, and not two aisles over. To give it an innocent spin...perhaps Williams went over to the SN window to get a better look at Norman and Jarman--to make sure it was them. He then just left 1he chicken and rushed over to the stairs. After which the sniper came out of the shadows...

OR...perhaps it's as simple as Williams' being threatened--"If you tell anyone you saw me up here I'll tell them you were in on it and ratted me out because you wanted more money" or some such thing. It's intriguing that Norman and Jarman spoke to the HSCA, while Williams (and Givens).

Pat,

Do you agree with me that if Bonnie Ray Williams left the sixth floor of his own accord sometime after 12:00 noon without seeing anyone, then it was a remarkably lucky coincidence for the sixth-floor conspirators?

I don't put much stock in "lucky coincidence" in this case.

I don't believe the sixth-floor conspirators would have relied on waiting out Bonnie Ray Williams. They were there to play a role in the assassination, and they surely weren't going to mess around and hope that BRW would leave on his own. 

I think it is highly likely they confronted him and shooed him off the floor under some "security" pretext. And he wouldn't have realized the significance of their presence until later. 

 

 

[Tony Krome]

35 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Pat,

Do you agree with me that if Bonnie Ray Williams left the sixth floor of his own accord sometime after 12:00 noon without seeing anyone, then it was a remarkably lucky coincidence for the sixth-floor conspirators?

I don't put much stock in "lucky coincidence" in this case.

I don't believe the sixth-floor conspirators would have relied on waiting out Bonnie Ray Williams. They were there to play a role in the assassination, and they surely weren't going to mess around and hope that BRW would leave on his own. 

I think it is highly likely they confronted him and shooed him off the floor under some "security" pretext. And he wouldn't have realized the significance of their presence until later. 

 

 

Did you know that if there was no follow up interviews with the 3 boys, after their initial statements, you'd come away thinking Williams was with the other two the whole upstairs time.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Tony Krome

[Guest]

Indeed.  I tried timing Williams movements from the beginning of lunch-break, but I'm struggling... 

Did he buy his lunch during the break ?

Probably, but wouldn't he have to wait some time on such a busy day ?

Where was that lunch-truck any way ?

Get a coke.

Go up 6th. 

Start eating

As long as he was eating there is no reason for him to leave the scene, unless....

I'm gonna check the other testimonies to see if there is some more timing possible    

 

[Pete Mellor]

Great thread this.

I've always suspected something surrounding Williams' story of eating his lunch on the 6th floor while the accused sniper is silently hiding behind his stack of boxes in the corner!  A ridiculous scenario!

Was he threatened by the real mechanics to leave & keep quiet?  Did he ever divulge any secrets to his family about these events?

[Guest]

Assuming :

stop working / go down / go outside to buy lunch from the lunch-truck (?) / get inside again / get a coke / go up 6th / start eating / actually do "some" eating

I think this would be close to 12:15h ?   IMO close enough to time-zero to make someone (or some people) very nervous.

 

 

[Guest]

But there are a number of things that need checking,  e.g. : 

1) At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember)

2) After Williams picked up his lunch on the first floor he returned to the sixth floor (so, did he buy it in the morning or did he walk outside to buy it at noon ?)