The Knoll Plainclothes Detective

[Gerry Down]

There are two confrontations. Arnold first tried to get from the railroad carpark to the triple underpass and the plainclothes detective that was up there with officer foster came over and denied him access. This part of the story might well be true. The second part is made up. In the second part Arnold claims after the encounter with the plainclothes detective he then went in front of the fence, watched the motorcade, bullet whizzed past his head, cop demanded the film from his camera and cop started crying.

[Ron Bulman]

21 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I thought the second part of Arnolds statement when first asked about the subject went like this.  After the confrontation behind the picket fence he went around in front of it and was filming or photographing the parade.  When shots came from over his shoulder he hit the ground.  When he got up the guy who told him to get out from behind it or another, with a gun (?) demanded his film/camera.  Which he gave up under protest.  Then left the scene without ever being questioned.  As an active soldier on leave he reported for duty in a day or two or few and was almost immediately sent over seas for a couple of years or so.  Not sure where I read this.  Maybe someone else has read a similar version? 

Here it is, Marrs, Crossfire revised, pages 79-80.  Story 1st came from a Dallas Morning News article 7/27/78, then Jim's interview of Arnold.

Went right over my left ear . . . just out of basic training . . . hit the dirt.  Next thing I knew someone was kicking my butt telling me to get up.  It was a policeman.  And then this other guy - a policeman - comes up with a gun.  he told me to give him my film. So I tossed him my camera.  He opened it and pulled out the film.  Left immediately.  Two days later reported for duty in Fort Wainwright Alaska and did not return for several years. 

To Dallas, where he was an investigator for the Dallas County Department of Consumer Affairs at the time of the 78' interview in the DMN.  A story the HSCA did not want to investigate.

[Ron Bulman]

On 11/15/2022 at 7:00 PM, Paul Cummings said:

Sketch drawing based upon Summers description.

And who is this supposed to resemble?

[Gerry Down]

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

And who is this supposed to resemble?

I think that's the guy Malcolm Summers encountered after the assassination and had a gun under his coat. He is the subject of this thread. Sam Holland said he was up on the triple underpass with officer foster. Holland thought he was a plainclothes detective. He is neither of the supposed cops who aledgedly took Gordon Arnold's camera film.

[Steve Thomas]

On 11/17/2022 at 3:16 PM, Ron Ege said:

 

I find it suspicious that there is no official record of a list of names of SS agents, other than that of presidential security, assigned to the Dallas area.

 

Ron,

There are reports from some of the Dallas Field Agents in Vol. XVIII of the WC Hearings and Exhibits  egin ing on p. 793

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=1&tab=toc

and in Vol XXV on page 786

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0408b.htm

Steve Thomas

 

[Michael Griffith]

On 11/13/2022 at 6:57 PM, Gerry Down said:

A little known fact is that there was a plainclothes detective on the triple underpass along with Officer Foster and Officer White. Having read through all the testimonies of the people on the triple underpass, only Sam Holland ever mentions this plainclothes detective:

Mr. STERN - Now, on Friday, November 22, will you describe what you did concerning the President's visit and where you were.
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, about 11:00 o'clock, a couple of policemen and a plainclothesman, came up on top of the triple underpass. and we had some men working up there, and I knew that they was going to have a parade, and I left my office and walked up to the underpass to talk to the policemen. And they asked me during the parade if I would come back up there and identify people that was supposed to be on that overpass. That is, the railroad people.
Mr. STERN - Where are your offices, Mr. Holland?
Mr. HOLLAND - At the Union Terminal Station.
Mr. STERN - Is that within walking distance of the triple overpass?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes, it is. About--less than a quarter of a mile a very short distance.
Mr. STERN - And these policemen that you spoke to, there were 3 altogether?
Mr. HOLLAND - Two---there were 2 city policemen and 1 man in plainclothes. I didn't talk to him. I talked to the city policemen.
Mr. STERN - You don't know what his affiliation was?
Mr. HOLLAND - I know he was a plainclothes detective, or FBI agent or something like that, but I don't know, and I told him I would be back and after lunch I would go up there.
Mr. STERN - Approximately what time did you arrive up there?
Mr. HOLLAND - Oh, I arrived up there, I guess, about a quarter until 12, and I would identify each person that came up there that he worked at the Union Terminal. and department so-and-so.

Though Officer Foster never mentions this plainclothes detective in his testimony, we know he must have been familiar with him because Officer Foster testified that he checked the credentials of everyone on the triple underpass:

Mr. BALL - You did permit some railroad employees to remain on the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How did you determine they were railroad employees?
Mr. FOSTER - By identification they had with them. Identification they had and the other men that was with them verifying that they were employees.

Sam Holland also saw Officer Foster check everyones credentials:

Mr. STERN - Did it seem to you that everybody up there had been checked by this policeman for identification?
Mr. HOLLAND - I think everyone was checked by some person.

Therefore we know this plainclothes detective was known to Officer Foster if that was not already obvious by Sam Hollands inference that the plainclothes detective was with the two police officers. 

If this plainclothes detective ran from the area of the triple underpass to the picket fence (as Officer Foster testified he himself did along with Sam Holland and others) and Officer Smith ran from the Elm Street/Huston Street junction to the picket fence, then it is a fair inference that the infamous “secret service” agent that Officer Smith met at the picket fence was none other than the plainclothes detective from the triple underpass. Officer Smith testified:

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.
I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man?
Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars. In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I started over here in this particular section.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Detectives sometimes identify themselves as “Special Agents” which could be mistaken for “Secret Service Agent”. Military intelligence officer James Powell for example admitted to the ARRB that he sometimes referred to himself as “Special Agent”.

Detectives also of course carry guns which would explain why Malcolm Summers said the person he encountered at the picket fence, whom he said he thought was a “detective or an FBI man” had a gun under a coat he had wrapped over his arm (12 minutes in on below video):

At 21 seconds on the below video we can see a man in a suit with a hat on carrying a coat over his arm which matches exactly to Malcolm Summers account of the well-dressed man:

Critically, if this guy was still hanging around the picket fence area by the time the above footage was taken, then he clearly could not be an assassin but instead would align more closely with being the plainclothes detective Sam Holland said was on top the triple underpass with Officers Foster and White. 

Does anyone know who this plainclothes detective might have been or what office/agency he might have been working with?

The police plainclothes detective could not have been the SS agent that Officer Smith encountered. Smith said the man identified himself as an SS agent.

manwhowasntthere.pdf - Google Drive

Often overlooked in discussions on phony SS agents in Dealey Plaza is the disturbing account of Sergeant D. V. Harkness, (Posner, for example, does not even mention it). Sergeant Harkness went to the rear of the Texas School Book Depository Building within a few minutes of the assassination. When he arrived there, he encountered several "well-armed" men dressed in suits. These "well-armed" men told Harkness they were SS agents (Hurt 110-111). It is not hard to understand why the presence of the armed, well-dressed men at the rear of the Book Depository did not make Harkness suspicious. Police officers were beginning to seal off the area, and just six minutes after the shooting Harkness himself identified the Depository over the radio as a possible source of gunfire. The problem, of course, is that the men encountered by Harkness could not have been legitimate SS agents, nor is it credible to suggest that Harkness somehow "misunderstood" what they said to him.

 

[Gerry Down]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

The police plainclothes detective could not have been the SS agent that Officer Smith encountered. Smith said the man identified himself as an SS agent.

manwhowasntthere.pdf - Google Drive

Often overlooked in discussions on phony SS agents in Dealey Plaza is the disturbing account of Sergeant D. V. Harkness, (Posner, for example, does not even mention it). Sergeant Harkness went to the rear of the Texas School Book Depository Building within a few minutes of the assassination. When he arrived there, he encountered several "well-armed" men dressed in suits. These "well-armed" men told Harkness they were SS agents (Hurt 110-111). It is not hard to understand why the presence of the armed, well-dressed men at the rear of the Book Depository did not make Harkness suspicious. Police officers were beginning to seal off the area, and just six minutes after the shooting Harkness himself identified the Depository over the radio as a possible source of gunfire. The problem, of course, is that the men encountered by Harkness could not have been legitimate SS agents, nor is it credible to suggest that Harkness somehow "misunderstood" what they said to him.

 

This was long after the assassination. We have several witnesses who were at the back of the TSBD in the immediate aftermath of the assassination (Romack, Pate etc) and saw no such men there. Those men Harkness encountered came in long after the assassination.

Those well-armed, well-dressed men came from the motorcade itself according to Officer Edgar Smith. He states this in the book "No More Silence":

 
In "No More Silence" page 206, Harkness admits he simply assumed they were Secret Service but actually saw no ID:

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Gerry Down

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

In "No More Silence" page 206, Harkness admits he simply assumed they were Secret Service but actually saw no ID:

 

Testimony of D.V. Harkness. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, April 9, 1964 volume VI, p. 312, as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol6_0161b.htm

After hearing what Euins had to say about seeing a rifle in a window, Harkness put him on the back of his motorcycle and delivered him to Inspector Sawyer’s car. He then went around to the back of the TSBD. Warren Commission Belin asked him if there was anyone else in the back of the building. Harkness answered, “There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.”

Steve Thomas

 

[Gerry Down]

On 11/18/2022 at 8:13 PM, Paul Cummings said:

Gerry, it's not like they waited minutes before crossing. Video showed people immediately heading to the picket fence.

Malcolm Summers said in the book "No More Silence" it was around 5 minutes after the assassination that he encountered the man with the gun. He was standing at the east end of the pergola and stopping people, one of which was Summers, from coming down the Elm street extension into the railroad yard:

 

[Gerry Down]

31 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Testimony of D.V. Harkness. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, April 9, 1964 volume VI, p. 312, as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol6_0161b.htm

After hearing what Euins had to say about seeing a rifle in a window, Harkness put him on the back of his motorcycle and delivered him to Inspector Sawyer’s car. He then went around to the back of the TSBD. Warren Commission Belin asked him if there was anyone else in the back of the building. Harkness answered, “There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.”

Steve Thomas

 

Well lets let Harkness speak for himself. He says in "No More Silence" page 209 that he wants to clarify the situation regarding the "secret service" agents a the back of the TSBD:

 
The result of this is that this whole story falls apart. 

[Ron Ege]

17 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Here it is, Marrs, Crossfire revised, pages 79-80.  Story 1st came from a Dallas Morning News article 7/27/78, then Jim's interview of Arnold.

Went right over my left ear . . . just out of basic training . . . hit the dirt.  Next thing I knew someone was kicking my butt telling me to get up.  It was a policeman.  And then this other guy - a policeman - comes up with a gun.  he told me to give him my film. So I tossed him my camera.  He opened it and pulled out the film.  Left immediately.  Two days later reported for duty in Fort Wainwright Alaska and did not return for several years. 

To Dallas, where he was an investigator for the Dallas County Department of Consumer Affairs at the time of the 78' interview in the DMN.  A story the HSCA did not want to investigate.

Ron, thanks.

It has been a long, long time - but didn't some official in the motorcade (Ralph Yarborough?) - report seeing a guy on the grassy knoll (and I am paraphrasing as best as I can) say, " . . .  there was a guy on the knoll, and when the shots occurred, I saw him hit the ground, and I thought he might be a combat veteran . . .  "

Or was the individual he saw, maybe Bill Newman?  I don't remember if "the guy" was uniformed.

[Paul Cummings]

7 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Malcolm Summers said in the book "No More Silence" it was around 5 minutes after the assassination that he encountered the man with the gun. He was standing at the east end of the pergola and stopping people, one of which was Summers, from coming down the Elm street extension into the railroad yard:

 

So five minutes later he was threatend with a gun underneath the persons coat? After people went to the picket fence and checked the parking when the shots were fired?

Edited November 21, 2022 by Paul Cummings

[Gerry Down]

22 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

So five minutes later he was threatend with a gun underneath the persons coat? After people went to the picket fence and checked the parking when the shots were fired?

Malcolm Summers said he came around the east side of the pergola and tried to enter the railroad yard from that side and the guy with the gun was stopping people there from entering the railroad yard there. This just makes good sense. The police were searching the railroad yard at that time so the last thing they would want is a bunch of nosy members of the public making their way in to the yard confusing the polices search there.

[Paul Cummings]

10 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Malcolm Summers said he came around the east side of the pergola and tried to enter the railroad yard from that side and the guy with the gun was stopping people there from entering the railroad yard there. This just makes good sense. The police were searching the railroad yard at that time so the last thing they would want is a bunch of nosy members of the public making their way in to the yard confusing the polices search there.

Gerry, his timing doesn't make sense. Five minutes later he's going up to the fence and parking area being threatend with "don't come up here or someone could to get shot?" If that was the situation why weren't other people who fled to this area threatend like Summers? 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Paul Cummings

[Gerry Down]

4 hours ago, Paul Cummings said:

Gerry, his timing doesn't make sense. Five minutes later he's going up to the fence and parking area being threatend with "don't come up here or someone could to get shot?" If that was the situation why weren't other people who fled to this area threatend like Summers? 

In 'no more silence' Summers said this encounter did not take place at the fence but at the east end of the pergola. The gun was hidden under the coat, possibly only Summers saw it. I'd imagine the guy was holding the gun like this in case the assassin was still in the area. The plainclothes detective would be able to surprise the assassin shooting him with the gun hidden under his coat.