Transcript excerpt of last interview of Michael Paine

[Greg Doudna]

Max Good recently posted the full clip of his Michael Paine interview on his Patreon account, the last known interview of Michael Paine, filmed Nov 2014, footage that except for several seconds was not used in the film about Ruth Paine. The filming takes place in the retirement home in California where Ruth Paine lives and at that time Michael Paine too. Ruth Paine sits on the same side as Max Good doing the filming, of a dining room table across from Michael. Another man is there too with Ruth, not identified in the film, who may have been Ruth Paine's boyfriend who has since died. In this interview Michael Paine is frail, struggles with his memory, but tells of his thinking on the JFK case, including an original conspiracy theory possibility he had recently developed and considered. In doing so Michael Paine appears to refer to "Pat Speer" as someone of whom he had recently read something that had caused him to think. Michael's theory, presented as a possibility in his recent thinking, was: he thought it could be possible Lee had been tracking JFK with his scope on the rifle and saw JFK hit by another bullet that wasn't his. He did not question that Oswald acted on his own, but he considered the possibility that there could have been another plot unknown to Oswald, same time and same Dealey Plaza, and Oswald would realize that when he saw JFK through his scope hit by a shot that was not from him. Michael Paine considered that could be an explanation for Oswald realizing and saying "I'm a patsy". It was kind of amazing to me that someone in the process of losing his faculties was still thinking originally at his age. At the end of the interview Ruth Paine, showing no signs of losing her faculties and who has no time for CT nonsense, is seen lending Michael an article by Max Holland to read to set him, Michael, straight on something.

On the name, I think Michael Paine said "Pat Steer" (sic), error for "Pat Speer" (since he appears to be naming someone). It is hard to tell whether he said "Steer" or "Speer" but I think he said "Steer". I replayed it many times and I do not see his lips close at the time of, and in agreement with, what sounds like an "St--" sound, whereas his lips would be seen to close if he had said "Sp--". Michael Paine was stumbling with his words and older people get names and sounds mixed up is what I interpret happened there. I interpret it as a mispronunciation but that he meant Pat Speer.  

As Max Good notes, this is probably the last interview Michael Paine gave in his life. In this video he comes across as a sympathetic figure in his frailty yet speaking thoughtfully, willing to consider a different possibility prompted by reading "Pat Steer" (sic), different from Ruth so fixed and strong in her thinking. 

(Ruth also being a sympathetic figure in Max Good's film despite the filmmaker insinuating in the supposedly neutral narrator's voice that Ruth may have forged and planted physical evidence in the case, and ending with the baseless claim on screen, so devastating in impact on the viewer apart from it being untrue with refusal from the filmmaker to supply documentation for the claim, that "dozens of files" on Ruth Paine are still being withheld.)

The interview, and others of historic interest as well, is behind a paywall, accessible to Patreon subscribers of Max Good at $5/month at: https://www.patreon.com/maxgood. The Michael Paine interview is at the entry dated Dec 2, 2022. Here is my transcription:

TRANSCRIPT (excerpt) of Michael Paine's last interview, with Max Good. (November 2014)

(Michael Paine remembers a point)

"Oh, yes--when he said--what was his alibi? (long pause, trying to remember, then remembers) -- 'I was a patsy'.

"I saw him--that on the radio--on the TV that night, saying, 'I'm a patsy'. And I thought to myself, what the hell, how is he gonna defend himself with that argument?

"And then I thought--I thought more recently--uh (loses train of thought again, can't remember what he was going to say)--oh, I should have been writing these things down (pause, trying to remember)--there was some, some reason why he (finger on mouth, mentally struggling, then remembers)--uh--oh yes! I'm a little cautious to mention this. Uh, I thought without a doubt that he had shot him. But I also thought that that, that place and that time would be the ideal for anyone who wanted to shoot him. I'd been worried about some right-wing group doing it. Here was the left-wing impulse.

"So if there had been a group they would have done it at the same time, so it would have come within seconds of, of when he shot (illustrating with gestures)--he, he made his shot-- So there could have been--if these--you know I'm just thinking about it--uh, it was not totally unreasonable if there was a totally different group that wanted to get him--Kennedy killed--they would have chosen that time, and just whether--when--he was going (gesturing), it could have been on two different streets--I think he probably was following, uh, Kennedy (gesturing as if holding a rifle and looking through the scope) and he was also looking at following Kennedy through his four-power microsc--telescopic sight there. So he would know exactly whether his shot had killed Kennedy or somebody else's shot.

"And that, that was the thing that I thought, uh, more recently within the past year when Pat Steer (sic; sounds like he means "Pat Speer")--uh--if somebody, if there had been another person he would have known about it. He would have seen it wasn't his shot that Kennedy was, was killed, was shot.

"Uh, so he would know that, uh, there had been another group, and here he was being the only one who was being up on--being fingered out as--'you're the one!'--and he knew that he was not the only one. If--if that was true, he would, could have said he was a patsy. There's (sic) not a totally inappropriate statement. And I hadn't thought about it at the time very much, but I realized in rethinking it, that if that had been the case, that argument would have been accurate. The statement would have been accurate.

"And I think he did, he intended to do it, and he had about succeeded, with Walker. So it was not--people have been saying--'but there was no previous evidence that he was a vicious man, or had done that kind of thing', and that was totally untrue--he had, just a few months ago, fired. So its totally reasonable that he should have--no reason to say that it was too far out of character for him to have shot Kennedy."

[end transcription excerpt]

Edited December 13, 2022 by Greg Doudna

[Lori Spencer]

Wow! Thank you so much for this! 

[Pat Speer]

9 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Max Good recently posted the full clip of his Michael Paine interview on his Patreon account, the last known interview of Michael Paine, filmed Nov 2014, footage that except for several seconds was not used in the film about Ruth Paine. The filming takes place in the retirement home in California where Ruth Paine lives and at that time Michael Paine too. Ruth Paine sits on the same side as Max Good doing the filming, of a dining room table across from Michael. Another man is there too with Ruth, not identified in the film, who may have been Ruth Paine's boyfriend who has since died. In this interview Michael Paine is frail, struggles with his memory, but tells of his thinking on the JFK case, including an original conspiracy theory possibility he had recently developed and considered. In doing so Michael Paine appears to refer to "Pat Speer" as someone of whom he had recently read something that had caused him to think. Michael's theory, presented as a possibility in his recent thinking, was: he thought it could be possible Lee had been tracking JFK with his scope on the rifle and saw JFK hit by another bullet that wasn't his. He did not question that Oswald acted on his own, but he considered the possibility that there could have been another plot unknown to Oswald, same time and same Dealey Plaza, and Oswald would realize that when he saw JFK through his scope hit by a shot that was not from him. Michael Paine considered that could be an explanation for Oswald realizing and saying "I'm a patsy". It was kind of amazing to me that someone in the process of losing his faculties was still thinking originally at his age. At the end of the interview Ruth Paine, showing no signs of losing her faculties and who has no time for CT nonsense, is seen lending Michael an article by Max Holland to read to set him, Michael, straight on something.

 

 

On the name, I think Michael Paine said "Pat Steer" (sic), error for "Pat Speer" (since he appears to be naming someone). It is hard to tell whether he said "Steer" or "Speer" but I think he said "Steer". I replayed it many times and I do not see his lips close at the time of, and in agreement with, what sounds like an "St--" sound, whereas his lips would be seen to close if he had said "Sp--". Michael Paine was stumbling with his words and older people get names and sounds mixed up is what I interpret happened there. I interpret it as a mispronunciation but that he meant Pat Speer.  

As Max Good notes, this is probably the last interview Michael Paine gave in his life. In this video he comes across as a sympathetic figure in his frailty yet speaking thoughtfully, willing to consider a different possibility prompted by reading "Pat Steer" (sic), different from Ruth so fixed and strong in her thinking. 

(Ruth also being a sympathetic figure in Max Good's film despite the filmmaker insinuating in the supposedly neutral narrator's voice that Ruth may have forged and planted physical evidence in the case, and ending with the baseless claim on screen, so devastating in impact on the viewer apart from it being untrue with refusal from the filmmaker to supply documentation for the claim, that "dozens of files" on Ruth Paine are still being withheld.)

The interview, and others of historic interest as well, is behind a paywall, accessible to Patreon subscribers of Max Good at $5/month at: https://www.patreon.com/maxgood. The Michael Paine interview is at the entry dated Dec 2, 2022. Here is my transcription:

TRANSCRIPT (excerpt) of Michael Paine's last interview, with Max Good. (November 2014)

(Michael Paine remembers a point)

"Oh, yes--when he said--what was his alibi? (long pause, trying to remember, then remembers) -- 'I was a patsy'.

"I saw him--that on the radio--on the TV that night, saying, 'I'm a patsy'. And I thought to myself, what the hell, how is he gonna defend himself with that argument?

"And then I thought--I thought more recently--uh (loses train of thought again, can't remember what he was going to say)--oh, I should have been writing these things down (pause, trying to remember)--there was some, some reason why he (finger on mouth, mentally struggling, then remembers)--uh--oh yes! I'm a little cautious to mention this. Uh, I thought without a doubt that he had shot him. But I also thought that that, that place and that time would be the ideal for anyone who wanted to shoot him. I'd been worried about some right-wing group doing it. Here was the left-wing impulse.

"So if there had been a group they would have done it at the same time, so it would have come within seconds of, of when he shot (illustrating with gestures)--he, he made his shot-- So there could have been--if these--you know I'm just thinking about it--uh, it was not totally unreasonable if there was a totally different group that wanted to get him--Kennedy killed--they would have chosen that time, and just whether--when--he was going (gesturing), it could have been on two different streets--I think he probably was following, uh, Kennedy (gesturing as if holding a rifle and looking through the scope) and he was also looking at following Kennedy through his four-power microsc--telescopic sight there. So he would know exactly whether his shot had killed Kennedy or somebody else's shot.

"And that, that was the thing that I thought, uh, more recently when Pat Steer (sic; sounds like he means "Pat Speer")--uh--if somebody, if there had been another person he would have known about it. He would have seen it wasn't his shot that Kennedy was, was killed, was shot.

"Uh, so he would know that, uh, there had been another group, and here he was being the only one who was being up on--being fingered out as--'you're the one!'--and he knew that he was not the only one. If--if that was true, he would, could have said he was a patsy. There's (sic) not a totally inappropriate statement. And I hadn't thought about it at the time very much, but I realized in rethinking it, that if that had been the case, that argument would have been accurate. The statement would have been accurate.

"And I think he did, he intended to do it, and he had about succeeded, with Walker. So it was not--people have been saying--'but there was no previous evidence that he was a vicious man, or had done that kind of thing', and that was totally untrue--he had, just a few months ago, fired. So its totally reasonable that he should have--no reason to say that it was too far out of character for him to have shot Kennedy."

[end transcription excerpt]

 

Thanks, Greg. Much appreciated. The take-away for me is that you never can tell who's reading this site or my site, etc. Over the years, I've had the family members of witnesses and police officers contact me to correct or add on to something they'd read. I even had a descendant of a mafia figure straighten me out on something. That's one of the good things about the internet, IMO. While someone with a connection to the assassination can easily avoid books and magazines by the research community, it's hard to avoid internet articles and threads such as this when googling yourself or your family. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Max Good recently posted the full clip of his Michael Paine interview on his Patreon account, the last known interview of Michael Paine, filmed Nov 2014, footage that except for several seconds was not used in the film about Ruth Paine. The filming takes place in the retirement home in California where Ruth Paine lives and at that time Michael Paine too. Ruth Paine sits on the same side as Max Good doing the filming, of a dining room table across from Michael. Another man is there too with Ruth, not identified in the film, who may have been Ruth Paine's boyfriend who has since died. In this interview Michael Paine is frail, struggles with his memory, but tells of his thinking on the JFK case, including an original conspiracy theory possibility he had recently developed and considered. In doing so Michael Paine appears to refer to "Pat Speer" as someone of whom he had recently read something that had caused him to think. Michael's theory, presented as a possibility in his recent thinking, was: he thought it could be possible Lee had been tracking JFK with his scope on the rifle and saw JFK hit by another bullet that wasn't his. He did not question that Oswald acted on his own, but he considered the possibility that there could have been another plot unknown to Oswald, same time and same Dealey Plaza, and Oswald would realize that when he saw JFK through his scope hit by a shot that was not from him. Michael Paine considered that could be an explanation for Oswald realizing and saying "I'm a patsy". It was kind of amazing to me that someone in the process of losing his faculties was still thinking originally at his age. At the end of the interview Ruth Paine, showing no signs of losing her faculties and who has no time for CT nonsense, is seen lending Michael an article by Max Holland to read to set him, Michael, straight on something.

 

 

On the name, I think Michael Paine said "Pat Steer" (sic), error for "Pat Speer" (since he appears to be naming someone). It is hard to tell whether he said "Steer" or "Speer" but I think he said "Steer". I replayed it many times and I do not see his lips close at the time of, and in agreement with, what sounds like an "St--" sound, whereas his lips would be seen to close if he had said "Sp--". Michael Paine was stumbling with his words and older people get names and sounds mixed up is what I interpret happened there. I interpret it as a mispronunciation but that he meant Pat Speer.  

As Max Good notes, this is probably the last interview Michael Paine gave in his life. In this video he comes across as a sympathetic figure in his frailty yet speaking thoughtfully, willing to consider a different possibility prompted by reading "Pat Steer" (sic), different from Ruth so fixed and strong in her thinking. 

(Ruth also being a sympathetic figure in Max Good's film despite the filmmaker insinuating in the supposedly neutral narrator's voice that Ruth may have forged and planted physical evidence in the case, and ending with the baseless claim on screen, so devastating in impact on the viewer apart from it being untrue with refusal from the filmmaker to supply documentation for the claim, that "dozens of files" on Ruth Paine are still being withheld.)

The interview, and others of historic interest as well, is behind a paywall, accessible to Patreon subscribers of Max Good at $5/month at: https://www.patreon.com/maxgood. The Michael Paine interview is at the entry dated Dec 2, 2022. Here is my transcription:

TRANSCRIPT (excerpt) of Michael Paine's last interview, with Max Good. (November 2014)

(Michael Paine remembers a point)

"Oh, yes--when he said--what was his alibi? (long pause, trying to remember, then remembers) -- 'I was a patsy'.

"I saw him--that on the radio--on the TV that night, saying, 'I'm a patsy'. And I thought to myself, what the hell, how is he gonna defend himself with that argument?

"And then I thought--I thought more recently--uh (loses train of thought again, can't remember what he was going to say)--oh, I should have been writing these things down (pause, trying to remember)--there was some, some reason why he (finger on mouth, mentally struggling, then remembers)--uh--oh yes! I'm a little cautious to mention this. Uh, I thought without a doubt that he had shot him. But I also thought that that, that place and that time would be the ideal for anyone who wanted to shoot him. I'd been worried about some right-wing group doing it. Here was the left-wing impulse.

"So if there had been a group they would have done it at the same time, so it would have come within seconds of, of when he shot (illustrating with gestures)--he, he made his shot-- So there could have been--if these--you know I'm just thinking about it--uh, it was not totally unreasonable if there was a totally different group that wanted to get him--Kennedy killed--they would have chosen that time, and just whether--when--he was going (gesturing), it could have been on two different streets--I think he probably was following, uh, Kennedy (gesturing as if holding a rifle and looking through the scope) and he was also looking at following Kennedy through his four-power microsc--telescopic sight there. So he would know exactly whether his shot had killed Kennedy or somebody else's shot.

"And that, that was the thing that I thought, uh, more recently when Pat Steer (sic; sounds like he means "Pat Speer")--uh--if somebody, if there had been another person he would have known about it. He would have seen it wasn't his shot that Kennedy was, was killed, was shot.

"Uh, so he would know that, uh, there had been another group, and here he was being the only one who was being up on--being fingered out as--'you're the one!'--and he knew that he was not the only one. If--if that was true, he would, could have said he was a patsy. There's (sic) not a totally inappropriate statement. And I hadn't thought about it at the time very much, but I realized in rethinking it, that if that had been the case, that argument would have been accurate. The statement would have been accurate.

"And I think he did, he intended to do it, and he had about succeeded, with Walker. So it was not--people have been saying--'but there was no previous evidence that he was a vicious man, or had done that kind of thing', and that was totally untrue--he had, just a few months ago, fired. So its totally reasonable that he should have--no reason to say that it was too far out of character for him to have shot Kennedy."

[end transcription excerpt]

Thanks, well done !

[Kirk Gallaway]

So Pat, was it you Michael Paine could have got this from?

 

[Pat Speer]

6 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

So Pat, was it you Michael Paine could have got this from?

 

He may have been influenced by my chapters on the witness statements...that strongly suggest the last sound or shot came from west of the building. 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

So Pat, was it you Michael Paine could have got this from?

 

Pat mentions the possibility of multiple shooters a number of times. 

Also the explanation on how it became part of the public opinion (contrary to Ford's explanation), e.g. from Chapter 25 :  "The public's suspicion there were multiple shooters came not from divergent descriptions of the shooter and Oswald broadcast on the 22nd, but from the statements of witnesses suggesting shots came from somewhere other than the book depository. This suspicion was then fed by the statements of witnesses describing men other than Oswald running from the building".

It's a good thing Michael was still thinking about what could have happened.  At his age and in his condition mental exercise is very important (whatever the subject).   Apparently Pat triggered this, a nice reward for his work IMO !  

 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Kirk Gallaway]

Greg, Thanks again. i understand why Max didn't include this, as it's difficult to know from the short excerpt of Michael he included in the film just how present and how much of his  facilities he still had, yet it was important he included something, as at one point, he is the elephant in the room.   So in that excerpt, there was Michael's adamant claim of Lee's guilt.

At the time I drew from some experience with my Father around the time he was 100 years old. At that age physical accidents can jar the mentality so as not to recover. At 99, my Dad's first great fall, he seemed to remember almost all the way up to Pearl Harbor Day and his first 5 years being married to my Mother who had passed. So he had actually lost any memory of his 5 kids and any experiences raising us. Nonetheless, in this period between the ages of 99 and 101,  he was adamant learner of his past life and would parrot back conversations his kids would have with him. He was sort of faking having those memories and knowing the story of his life, and on rare occasion would extend on them falsely, and once in a while I had to correct his memory, where he'd just concede he was wrong and we'd move on.

This reminded me a bit of Michael's presence  in the film. But apparently in moments of lucidity, he could think this through much more than I might have expected. Since it seems somewhat reasoned, it would be reasonable to ask Max why this wasn't included, but I suppose the critical decision may have been made about how much facility he appeared to have in accounting his theory in film, as he is certainly rambling.

Having seen it, I'd be curious as to your thoughts, if you would have included it Greg?

Edited December 13, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Max Good]

Michael Paine said "more recently, within the past year," not "Pat Speer."

I have a lot of good stuff up on my Patreon, if anyone is interested in supporting a struggling independent filmmaker with $5 or $10/month.  I've also just added my full hour-long interview with David Lifton from 2017.  You can also see Ruth Paine's full interview 1.5 hour interview and several deleted scenes.

https://www.patreon.com/maxgood

Edited December 13, 2022 by Max Good

[Greg Doudna]

Max Good is right. I rechecked it and although it sounds like "when", it can be heard as a fast or slurred "within the", and "past year" makes better sense in context as a followup to "and more recently", "(within the) past year", rather than "(when) Pat Steer--" 

Apology for the error to Pat Speer and to all. Thanks to Max Good for the correction. I have corrected the transcription in the top post.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Greg Doudna

[Guest]

We all make mistakes, no need for an apology. 

And admitting one shows integrity !

 

 

[Denis Morissette]

David Lifton said that Michael Paine told him that Fritz slapped him. He has the recording in his collection.