A Question of Credibility: Tippit Witnesses Can't Agree

[Tommy Tomlinson]

On 8/19/2023 at 10:21 PM, David Josephs said:

  Let me know if you have any concerns/questions.  Hope it makes sense.

DJ

Hi David, going to take you up on that offer... I read it all in one go and a couple of points pinged in my brain. I'm now going through it more carefully to make sure I didn't miss the explanations. BUT... This may be the first of several.

You mention in the piece that the FBI were keeping tabs on Oswald, including via keeping track of his mail... and talk about them being unlikely to have missed the rifle and pistol.

Do we know at what point the identity "Hidell" was known to be Oswald by the authorities ? It does seem odd that if stuff is being improperly delivered to his PO Box addressed to someone else, that the FBI would NOT wish to determine if he's acting as a third party for his pal AJ, or actually  IS AJ... particularly if those parcels contain firearms.

I'm sure many people believe it was a known alias he was either given, or agreed WITH those agencies. But is there a point where we KNOW that they knew?

Edited August 23, 2023 by Tommy Tomlinson
Typos... so many typos...

[David Josephs]

3 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

Do we know at what point the identity "Hidell" was known to be Oswald by the authorities ?

That's a very interesting question Tommy.

As I see it, until 11/22 there was no awareness by "authorities" that Oswald and Hidell were associated.  And Authorities I mean the DPD.  For the items of incriminating evidence to be produced, there had to have been some awareness of the name HIDELL prior to 11/22.  Nagell used HIDELL as well - at least it is said so.

Supposedly, the January '63 order for the pistol says "AJ HIDELL" as the person ordering.  There is not a single thing about these orders which can be accepted as "normal SOP", right down to REA not collecting any COD/Shipping fees.

 

 

Here are the other instances of HIDELL...  Even the Stamp kit HIDELL in ager JUNE 1963 (and FWIW was not part of Oswald's belongings sent to FBI, but it was there when the FBI returned all the items)

Just as we do not hear a single word about a rifle or pistol being ordered or received - despite the FBI/CIA opening his mail and having assets at the USPS, not a single report is offered prior to 11/22 about a pistol, or a rifle - we do not see the use of HIDELL by "authorities" until after the fact.

 

 

 

 

More importantly IMO is this change in WALLET CONTENTS between 2 FBI reports from the 22nd and the 24th related primarily to HIDELL.  See comparison image below.

For CLEMENTS, he states they only have "PHOTO OF SELECTIVE SERVICE SYSTEM CARD", not the card itself;  and there are no other HIDELL items, on the 22nd. (Other items do not say "PHOTO".  We learn that Fritz provided PHOTOS of the items to BOOKOUT/FBI and gave the actual items themselves to HOSTY days later.

The fact these items and the "wallets" they came from are never again connected is troubling and suggests these items were gathered and attributed to the lone OSWALD wallet we see today.

 

This DPD exhibit says "ITEMS FROM WALLET FOUND AT IRVING HOME". The wallet is pictured above.  The wallets and the HIDELL association is one of the more telling signs of the conspiracy to implicate our man Ozzie.

 

On the 24th we now have a photo from FRITZ of the ALEK JAMES HIDELL SSS Notice of Classification (below)

As far as I can tell, there is no OSWALD=HIDELL association in the minds of the "authorities" prior to 11/22 - which is a bit suspect as I mention above, If they knew about the rifle order and PO BOX shipment and REA and the pistol order - there is no mention of it anywhere I can find, so far.

When CROY hands WESTBROOK a wallet at the Tippit scene there is supposedly HIDELL ID in it.  But that wallet is not in evidence.

The arrest wallet taken from Oswald in the police car was also supposed to have had HIDELL ID based on the testimony of the occupants...  but that wallet too is not in evidence.  Only a wallet from IRVING and 14-17 items associated with it.

This is one of 2 wallets listed in evidence, and the photo related to it.  This is the last we see of this description, this photo and that wallet.  All other images of a wallet include "from home in Irving".

As to the Postal Money Order's Hidell - from the work I've done, that PMO was created the night of the 22nd by Robert Jackson and Harold Marks.

In reality there were only a small handful of time Oswald used HIDELL, and none as an alias for himself OTHER THAN the weapons orders.

Hmmm.  

 

 

[Tommy Tomlinson]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

That's a very interesting question Tommy.

As I see it, until 11/22 there was no awareness by "authorities" that Oswald and Hidell were associated.  And Authorities I mean the DPD.  For the items of incriminating evidence to be produced, there had to have been some awareness of the name HIDELL prior to 11/22.  Nagell used HIDELL as well - at least it is said so.

Supposedly, the January '63 order for the pistol says "AJ HIDELL" as the person ordering.  There is not a single thing about these orders which can be accepted as "normal SOP", right down to REA not collecting any COD/Shipping fees.

 

 

Here are the other instances of HIDELL...  Even the Stamp kit HIDELL in ager JUNE 1963 (and FWIW was not part of Oswald's belongings sent to FBI, but it was there when the FBI returned all the items)

Just as we do not hear a single word about a rifle or pistol being ordered or received - despite the FBI/CIA opening his mail and having assets at the USPS, not a single report is offered prior to 11/22 about a pistol, or a rifle - we do not see the use of HIDELL by "authorities" until after the fact.

 

 

 

 

More importantly IMO is this change in WALLET CONTENTS between 2 FBI reports from the 22nd and the 24th related primarily to HIDELL.  See comparison image below.

For CLEMENTS, he states they only have "PHOTO OF SELECTIVE SERVICE SYSTEM CARD", not the card itself;  and there are no other HIDELL items, on the 22nd. (Other items do not say "PHOTO".  We learn that Fritz provided PHOTOS of the items to BOOKOUT/FBI and gave the actual items themselves to HOSTY days later.

The fact these items and the "wallets" they came from are never again connected is troubling and suggests these items were gathered and attributed to the lone OSWALD wallet we see today.

 

This DPD exhibit says "ITEMS FROM WALLET FOUND AT IRVING HOME". The wallet is pictured above.  The wallets and the HIDELL association is one of the more telling signs of the conspiracy to implicate our man Ozzie.

 

On the 24th we now have a photo from FRITZ of the ALEK JAMES HIDELL SSS Notice of Classification (below)

As far as I can tell, there is no OSWALD=HIDELL association in the minds of the "authorities" prior to 11/22 - which is a bit suspect as I mention above, If they knew about the rifle order and PO BOX shipment and REA and the pistol order - there is no mention of it anywhere I can find, so far.

When CROY hands WESTBROOK a wallet at the Tippit scene there is supposedly HIDELL ID in it.  But that wallet is not in evidence.

The arrest wallet taken from Oswald in the police car was also supposed to have had HIDELL ID based on the testimony of the occupants...  but that wallet too is not in evidence.  Only a wallet from IRVING and 14-17 items associated with it.

This is one of 2 wallets listed in evidence, and the photo related to it.  This is the last we see of this description, this photo and that wallet.  All other images of a wallet include "from home in Irving".

As to the Postal Money Order's Hidell - from the work I've done, that PMO was created the night of the 22nd by Robert Jackson and Harold Marks.

In reality there were only a small handful of time Oswald used HIDELL, and none as an alias for himself OTHER THAN the weapons orders.

Hmmm.  

 

 

This is fascinating. Interesting you mention Hosty, because his was the first name that leapt to mind when thinking about "Who might know?"

Again, this is not in my wheelhouse, and we are getting WAAY off topic with this but do you know... was there any documented attempt made to determine if Hidell was even real? You know... double check that Oswald wasn't sharing/using an asssociate's I.D that might have stood up to legitimate scrutiny? (In much the same way that his own Identity was being used by others?) Or did they make another of their infamous deductive leaps and just "Know" that it was an alias? As far as they knew Hidell might have been one of the guys using Oswalds i.d. in Mexico!

It wouldn't have taken much of the FBI's vast resources to do the sort of search I imagine they were both familiar with and competent at to discover fairly quickly that it was an alias... so if they did and it turned up a bust, then... OK But if they didn't make such a move, that in and of itself is kind of suggestive that they already knew the answer. I mean... were they actually GOOD fake I.D's or obvious phonies? Or was it fairly easy to forge a believeable Marine Corps Service Card? Did he have any "O.H. Lee." stuff too? 

It's certainly odd that he was carrying that Hidell i.d if he'd only ever previously used it for ordering the weapons he "just happened" to be accused of using that day. Almost as if he were trying to make the FBI's job easier... 

[David Josephs]

3 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

was there any documented attempt made to determine if Hidell was even real?

So this is about an 11/24 meeting - "OSWALD ORDERED RIFLE" and then they lay out a number of "HIDELL" appearances.

This being a message from CIA HQ to MX.  CIA claims no trace HIDELL, FBI has not established whether "HIDELL EXISTS OF ALIAS USED BY OSWALD"

Let me ask you Tommy, Holmes claims to have found the money order in the name of HIDELL Sat mid morning, FBI was at Klein's the night before finding the microfilm with the "HIDELL" order and a ship to Oswald's PO Box... the message lists a number of other things... yet the FBI is still unsure if there are 2 people, or if O=H.

Marina admitted to signing HIDELL on the FPCC card (CE1132).  

 

The "Fritz" notes about Bud Owens is eerily familiar in that everyone else writes or says the same thing about Oswald and the SSS HIDELL card, "admits to having it but not to signature" and would not answer any more questions about it or why he had it.

3 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

were they actually GOOD fake I.D's or obvious phonies?

To CLEMENTS of the FBI it seems he knew right away it was not real...  it is not supposed to have a photo.

3 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

It's certainly odd that he was carrying that Hidell i.d

That's really the point here Tommy.  No point in carrying much of what they claimed was in his "wallet"... which is why we have so many wallets initially and then only 1 at the end.

Everything about HIDELL is quite a joke and yes, I do think on purpose to set Ozzie up in as many ways as possible since all the items related to that name is either relate3d to intelligence, or to associating the weapons with the man.

 

 

This comes from one of the John Armstrong Notebook CDs.

It's the earliest thing I have relating Oswald to Alek "JAMES HIDELL" - Whether the note ever actually went with the photo, and its provenance, IDK.  Offered in good faith.  

 

[Evan Marshall]

A side note. a Detroit Homicide copper who had been there for decades told me that in the 60's it was standard policy for detectives to place the number of fingers on their chest when entering the line up room for the # the suspect. For example, three fingers for #3. Wasn't done when I was at Detroit Homicide in the mid 80's but its surprising anybody shown a line up did not always pick Oswald unless they just weren't sharp enough to pick up on the clue.