The Raleigh phone call - an examination of the "call slip" factoid

[Guest]

On 1/28/2023 at 1:08 PM, Charles Blackmon said:

You present no evidence of what you are saying happened.  I want to see where David Lifton said what you allege Hurt said to him. 

I know about what the widow said, she was just sick of being bothered and said what they wanted her to say. 

Hi

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[James DiEugenio]

Charles,  the episode is dealt with in a couple of pages by Henry Hurt.  Nothing like Proctor's in depth essay.

But this is what Henry writes.

John Hurt changed his story.

At first he denied everything. Never heard of or had known Oswald prior to the assassination

He had never made any phone call to Oswald and had no knowledge of Oswald trying to call him.

When people learned of his military background, John Hurt still had no idea why Oswald would want to call him.

John Hurt died in 1981. Now his wife says that her former husband got drunk on the day of the assassination and phoned the Dallas jail and left his number. (Reasonable Doubt, pp. 244-45)

If one buys that one then the drug crimes advisor probably has some land for you in Arizona.

[Ron Ege]

11 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

Oh, he trots that out periodically. He's insinuating folks like me and you are agents of "cognitive infiltration," planted here to upset the True Believers. Yeah, baby, I'm a covert agent!

The loonies never get the joke: If the CIA were actually going to spread disinformation, it wouldn't be through Lone Nutters. Let's at least give the CIA credit for being a bit more sophisticated than that.

Lance, thanks.

I think you possibly, may have inferred something I did not intend.

I really don't think I have been a member here long enough to "periodically trot out", much at all.  But if that's how you see it, no umbrage taken.

I try my best to be respectful of everyone here, regardless of their view of the JFKA; I surely cannot recall calling anyone names, only just referring to them being on one side or the other of the debate.  I believe I mentioned in an earlier post that I do not necessarily even cotton to the terms, CTer and LNer, but it seems well accepted here.

I was not suggesting that you or anyone here is an agent of anyone, to upset anyone, and I certainly was not implying that ANYONE here, is any kind of agent.

The farthest thing from my mind in the post is that - "the CIA is spreading disinformation through Lone Nutters."

The reason for the link was just an addendum to Mr. Niederhut's post.  Ma-a-y-be, just a wee, possible FYI/FYE to read, digest, and accept/discard as per one's opinion of it.

Perhaps, it was too long of post, on my part.

For brevity's sake, yes, I do believe that "We don't know (unequivocally, 100 percent) what we don't know", regarding the JFKA.  I thought that's why the debate, here - to find that out.

Secondarily, yes, I do believe that certain governmental elements, have, for a very long time, for whatever reason, way before 11/23/963, and most certainly subsequent thereto, have indeed, purposefully inserted, shall we say "roadblocks", to prevent finding the truth about (insert whatever questionable action/scenario, here, along with the JFKA).  Be those "roadblocks" purposes of the "left", "right", or somewhere in between, IMO, there is ample evidence that "stuff" has gone/goes on, relative to left, right, or the in be tween's goals. 

We all remember JEH's comment about the CIA (yeah, I know, he was certainly throwing stones from inside of his own glass house).  But still.

Lastly, I only attempted to bring, perhaps, a little nostalgic "dressing" to my observation that EVERYONE, here - is simply trying to confirm, as they view it in their own minds, the truth about the JFKA (and yes, also, to attempt to convince the other side, too) - and to eventually bring, at some future point, the debate issue to complete closure, be that a pro or con conspiracy conclusion.

Do I lean toward the pro conspiracy side.  Yep.

Am I ready to absolutely bet MY life that LHO acted completely alone?  Nope.  Still believe in the old "death and taxes" adage.

That's why I read everything you and everyone else here posts in any of the threads, with an open mind and with respect. 

I absolutely, "DO wanna learn what I don't know."

You and the rest here help me with that, a lot!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

On 1/28/2023 at 1:37 PM, Ron Ege said:

Lance, thanks.

I think you possibly, may have inferred something I did not intend.

I really don't think I have been a member here long enough to "periodically trot out", much at all.  But if that's how you see it, no umbrage taken.

I try my best to be respectful of everyone here, regardless of their view of the JFKA; I surely cannot recall calling anyone names, only just referring to them being on one side or the other of the debate.  I believe I mentioned in an earlier post that I do not necessarily even cotton to the terms, CTer and LNer, but it seems well accepted here.

I was not suggesting that you or anyone here is an agent of anyone, to upset anyone, and I certainly was not implying that ANYONE here, is any kind of agent.

The farthest thing from my mind in the post is that - "the CIA is spreading disinformation through Lone Nutters."

The reason for the link was just an addendum to Mr. Niederhut's post.  Ma-a-y-be, just a wee, possible FYI/FYE to read, digest, and accept/discard as per one's opinion of it.

Perhaps, it was too long of post, on my part.

For brevity's sake, yes, I do believe that "We don't know (unequivocally, 100 percent) what we don't know", regarding the JFKA.  I thought that's why the debate, here - to find that out.

Secondarily, yes, I do believe that certain governmental elements, have, for a very long time, for whatever reason, way before 11/23/963, and most certainly subsequent thereto, have indeed, purposefully inserted, shall we say "roadblocks", to prevent finding the truth about (insert whatever questionable action/scenario, here, along with the JFKA).  Be those "roadblocks" purposes of the "left", "right", or somewhere in between, IMO, there is ample evidence that "stuff" has gone/goes on, relative to left, right, or the in be tween's goals. 

We all remember JEH's comment about the CIA (yeah, I know, he was certainly throwing stones from inside of his own glass house).  But still.

Lastly, I only attempted to bring, perhaps, a little nostalgic "dressing" to my observation that EVERYONE, here - is simply trying to confirm, as they view it in their own minds, the truth about the JFKA (and yes, also, to attempt to convince the other side, too) - and to eventually bring, at some future point, the debate issue to complete closure, be that a pro or con conspiracy conclusion.

Do I lean toward the pro conspiracy side.  Yep.

Am I ready to absolutely bet MY life that LHO acted completely alone?  Nope.  Still believe in the old "death and taxes" adage.

That's why I read everything you and everyone else here posts in any of the threads, with an open mind and with respect. 

I absolutely, "DO wanna learn what I don't know."

You and the rest here help me with that, a lot!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[James DiEugenio]

Ron:

With all due respect, you do not have to be kind to Lancie.

Here is why:  Lance aids the police in Arizona in making drug cases in criminal court.  He was enlisted to make sure their cases would stick before a judge. Meaning that he knows all the rules of what would be admissible in court and what would not.  Meaning that he knows the rules of both evidence and testimony.

But, in spite of that, he still throws around the Warren Commission evidence as if it would have no problem at all getting into a court of law.  When, in fact, any defense lawyer would be calling for 402 hearings all day long for a week. 

I use that term since that is what they are called in California.  They are more simply termed pre trial evidentiary hearings. In JFK Revisited, we had two people talk about this issue.  They were Henry Lee and Brian Edwards.  Lee needs no introduction, he knows the issue from his days as Commissioner of Public Safety in Connecticut and as a police captain in Taiwan where he supervised scores of cases.  Brian Edwards was a police investigator and member of a SWAT team who appeared in court about 100 times as witness since he served for 22 years in Lawrence Kansas.

Can you imagine the 402 hearings in this case?

The rifle

The shells

CE 399

The pictures of Kennedy's brain

The bullet fragments in the front seat of the car

The windshield

The autopsy report--since the original and the notes were burned

The alleged palm print

The CIA tapes of Oswald in Mexico City

I could go on and on.  In my opinion with what we know today, I don't think the case would have gone to trial.  Because you would be able to show  fraud and bad faith on the part of the prosecution.

Now, are you going to tell me that the drug advisor does not know this? And he has never been at a 402 hearing or whatever they call them in Arizona?  😃😊

But he never says a word about this serious problem.  Hmm. 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Charles Blackmon]

39 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

Know how to use Google, dear?

Would a post ON THIS FORUM by LIFTON HIMSELF satisfy you?

For what its worth. . . : I called Hurt back around 1970, and spoke with him for between 30 minutes and an hour. I believe he told me the same "I was drunk" story--and, again "FWIW", he sounded credible (i.e., that he was indeed drunk). I have a BASF tape of the entire conversation. Somewhere in my collection. With regard to anything I write here, I would defer to the tape as the better evidence. What I do remember is coming away from the call believing I had done what I could do, pursuing this lead, and there wasn't much to it. The Hurt tape should be somewhere in my tape storage boxes, and should I locate it, I will review it and double check what I have written here.

John David Hurt - Page 2 - JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum (ipbhost.com)

 

This must be the "broken link" Roe was alluding to. It is kind of vague but seems to support what he said about Lifton. 

The Raleigh call is an interesting sideshow, but thats about all it is.

[James DiEugenio]

Its not a sideshow at all.

And I explained why above.

John Hurt changed his story.

He had to.

[Charles Blackmon]

2 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Its not a sideshow at all.

And I explained why above.

John Hurt changed his story.

He had to.

Jim

A lot of folks changed their stories over time but we always get crucified for suggesting it don't we?

[James DiEugenio]

I think that is probably correct Charles.

😀

[Steve Roe]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

I could go on and on.  In my opinion with what we know today, I don't think the case would have gone to trial.  Because you would be able to show  fraud and bad faith on the part of the prosecution.

Are you dreaming? Oswald would never go to trial???

Earth to DiEugenio again........Oswald was already charged with the crime. That meant he was due for a grand jury decision. 

Now pay close attention Mr. DiEugenio........it's the Grand Jury that decides if there was a probable cause for a trial. If there was it's called a "True Bill".

Pay close attention again Mr. DiEugenio, all criminal trials start with the evidence being admitted or not. The judge rules if it's admissible. The defense lawyer at that time can argue whether or not. Once the evidence is admitted, it will be the defense lawyer's chance to look over that evidence and prepare his defense for his client. 

Pay close attention again, then the lawyers pick a jury. After the jury is selected, then the trial begins. 

Ok? So, this claim of yours (it would never go to trial) is just laughable. You can bet your bottom dollar the rifle, CE399, Prints, witnesses, spent shells, FBI lab reports, etc. and etc. would be admissible as evidence. 

I don't know who you are trying to fool here, but it's not going to work. You badly misinterpret how a criminal trial works. 

[Guest]

On 1/28/2023 at 1:58 PM, Charles Blackmon said:

This must be the "broken link" Roe was alluding to. It is kind of vague but seems to support what he said about Lifton. 

The Raleigh call is an interesting sideshow, but thats about all it is.

Bye

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

On 1/26/2023 at 6:01 PM, Joseph McBride said:

When someone writes "factoid," you know the

person "learned" about the assassination from

the late disinformation agent John MacAdams, who used the term

as a childish code word to disparage something he didn't like

before making or not making a case against it. The use

of "factoid" is similar to the common disparaging use of the

term "conspiracy theory" to end discussion.

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

I was strictly referring to Niederhut, who has posted the same nonsense on more than one occasion.

 

Monsieur Payette,

    Are you claiming that Cass Sunstein never proposed that the U.S. government deploy "cognitive infiltrators" on social media forums focused on "conspiracy theories?"

     Please clarify what alleged "nonsense" you are referring to in your (above) comment.

     The only thing I posted on this thread was a 2010 Glenn Greenwald article at Salon.com.

[Guest]

On 1/28/2023 at 3:59 PM, W. Niederhut said:

Monsieur Payette,

    Are you claiming that Cass Sunstein never proposed that the U.S. government deploy "cognitive infiltrators" on social media forums focused on "conspiracy theories?"

     Please clarify what alleged "nonsense" you are referring to in your (above) comment.

     The only thing I posted on this thread was a 2010 Glenn Greenwald article at Salon.com.

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[W. Niederhut]

16 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

That would be the nonsense that the Cass Sunstein meme you love so much has any relevance to this thread.

What's it doing here - just a brain fart on your part?

Lance,

Which "anti-government conspiracy theory" forums needed to be "cognitively infiltrated," in Cass Sunstein's opinion?

Any thoughts, or brain farts from your headquarters or hindquarters? 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by W. Niederhut