Why Do We Care?

[Nic Martin]

I plan on being a Presidential historian with emphasis on the Kennedy administration, and one of my main views is if it's happened once, and we don't know why or how, it can and will happen again.

Nic --

Very well said.

People ask me about my fascination with history. I always tell them that history repeats itself for several reasons:

1) The planet doesn't change very much or very quickly

2) People don't learn from their own history

3) People don't change very much or very quickly

Add these three together and we see why history is destined to repeat itself...

In this case, we are actively being *prevented* from learning, thus the repetition of history is all but assured. If one doubts, consider the fates of MLK and RFK, just to name a few.

I, for one, want to learn from our history and not see it repeated.

Regards,

Frank

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even though 98% of this forum ( if not more ) are liberal, I'd like to ask this.

How would YOU, personally, react, if a major political Republican figure was shot tomorrow? Putting aside your feelings, and putting aside your party of choice, how would YOU feel? I only ask because my grandmother remembers being in the living room of her house watching the television when Walter Cronkite announced the death of JFK, and she cried - she's voted straight Republican since her first ballot was cast, but she cried.

I, cannot imagine how I'd react. I get teary-eyed watching my recently-acquired "as-it-happened" CBS footage of the RFK assassination. I was one of millions who cried on 9/11. I DEEPLY care about this country and what happens to it, and I find it extremely screwed up that a man who pushed civil rights & the space program, can't even have his own murder solved once and for all because the public cares more about who Jennifer Lopez marries this week. I think it's pathetic.

Edited January 20, 2005 by Nic Martin

[Richard J. Smith]

Even though 98% of this forum ( if not more ) are liberal, I'd like to ask this.

How would YOU, personally, react, if a major political Republican figure was shot tomorrow? Putting aside your feelings, and putting aside your party of choice, how would YOU feel? I only ask because my grandmother remembers being in the living room of her house watching the television when Walter Cronkite announced the death of JFK, and she cried - she's voted straight Republican since her first ballot was cast, but she cried.

I, cannot imagine how I'd react. I get teary-eyed watching my recently-acquired "as-it-happened" CBS footage of the RFK assassination. I was one of millions who cried on 9/11.  I DEEPLY care about this country and what happens to it, and I find it extremely screwed up that a man who pushed civil rights & the space program, can't even have his own murder solved once and for all because the public cares more about who Jennifer Lopez marries this week. I think it's pathetic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nic,

I must add publicly(as I've done privately), that your postings are some of the most articulate, intelligent, profound, and interesting insights(yes even for a young'un) that I have come across. You deserve every kudos you've received here. Don't ever lose your zeal to learn more, it will be you or someone just like you(I don't know if there is anyone like you) that will break this thing one day.

As to your question, as a life long Democrat, I would be shocked, dismayed, and saddened if something dreadful of this nature were to happen today to anyone. As much as I dislike the Bush administration, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Violence of this nature has no place in politics(or anywhere else for that matter).

I've discussed the JFK assassination with my 80 year old mother, who is a life long Democrat, as was my father. She often tells me she was watching As the World Turns, standing in front of the TV and behind her ironing board, when Walter Cronkite broke the news. My father was at my uncle's, helping with some remodeling(I was in school, 5th grade I think). My mother called my father and he rushed home. By the time I got home from school, they were glued to the TV, along with my 2 older sisters. They were all crushed and crying, and I think I was more crushed seeing them. I was more mad after first hearing the announcement at school(I was only 9), and didn't know what to think. It all scared the crap out of me.

Richard

[Jim Root]

Nic

That really hurts, your making me feel really old. Your grandmother must be about my age because I remember the assassination so vividly.

By the way I was in Washington shortly after Ronald Reagan was shot and stayed directly accross the street from where it had occured. A) He was not killed and the attempted assassin (who lived) turned out to be a "lone nut" which made everyone feel a little more comfortable.

When Reagan was shot we had Alexander Haig comming on television saying everything was all right because he was in Washington taking care of the world. Nothing could have worried me more! I was relieved when it was anounced that Reagan had survived (and that his doctor was a Republican)!

But that is another part of history. By the way I'm one of your 2% of conservatives that still feels that the whole truth does not exist in the matter of the JFK assassination (real conservatives don't like big brother in control). Nic, it crosses over political boundaries (no need to be prejudice in this area).

Jim Root

[Nic Martin]

Nic,

I must add publicly(as I've done privately), that your postings are some of the most articulate, intelligent, profound, and interesting insights(yes even for a young'un) that I have come across. You deserve every kudos you've received here. Don't ever lose your zeal to learn more, it will be you or someone just like you(I don't know if there is anyone like you) that will break this thing one day.

As to your question, as a life long Democrat, I would be shocked, dismayed, and saddened if something dreadful of this nature were to happen today to anyone. As much as I dislike the Bush administration, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Violence of this nature has no place in politics(or anywhere else for that matter).

I've discussed the JFK assassination with my 80 year old mother, who is a life long Democrat, as was my father. She often tells me she was watching As the World Turns, standing in front of the TV and behind her ironing board, when Walter Cronkite broke the news. My father was at my uncle's, helping with some remodeling(I was in school, 5th grade I think). My mother called my father and he rushed home. By the time I got home from school, they were glued to the TV, along with my 2 older sisters. They were all crushed and crying, and I think I was more crushed seeing them. I was more mad after first hearing the announcement at school(I was only 9), and didn't know what to think.  It all scared the crap out of me.

Richard

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you Richard, you're definitely one of the most intelligent people here, and a major credit to this community, and I greatly admire you and your opinions on everything.

My grandmother turns 67 this year, and she remembers seeing Oswald get shot, and feeling so completely shocked. She doesn't remember doing anything but watching television for days. My mother was only a year and a half old at the time ( born in April 62 ), so she has no memories of it.

I disagree with Bush on civil liberties, but I would not wish harm to him or his family ( including his LOVELY wife Laura, who I insist is second only to Jackie Kennedy as far as my ideal First Lady ) - and I don't think anyone here would, but my challenge to anyone is - why wouldn't you care about that?

The news media today puts Gerald Posner up in a pretty little frame in their evening specials and insist, "Well, that's it, then." Later in the night, they'll talk about Britney Spears' new dress or if Jennifer Lopez is pregnant. It's FINE for them to gossip about pointless areas of the lives of celebrities ( most of which aren't even talented ), but if you even remotely suggest that a member of the government was involved in the murder of the President, you're written off as a psycho.

There's a popular UK comedian called Ali G, he's a well-educated white man who speaks in ebonics and has phrases such as "Is it because I is black?" I was watching his show on American HBO, and he was talking to someone from the CIA, and made the joke, "So, back to the grassy knoll, who actually shot JR?" ( Woo for 'Dallas,' and yes, I actually do know of things that happened in the 1980's ) And the guy did a double-take and paused and said, "JFK?" This, really stunned me - the death of our President is now a joke. We, sitting here, talking about this, are considered a JOKE - but people who make thousands of dollars snapping pictures of Jennifer Aniston buying coffee are encouraged.

[Dawn Meredith]

Nic,

I must add publicly(as I've done privately), that your postings are some of the most articulate, intelligent, profound, and interesting insights(yes even for a young'un) that I have come across. You deserve every kudos you've received here. Don't ever lose your zeal to learn more, it will be you or someone just like you(I don't know if there is anyone like you) that will break this thing one day.

As to your question, as a life long Democrat, I would be shocked, dismayed, and saddened if something dreadful of this nature were to happen today to anyone. As much as I dislike the Bush administration, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Violence of this nature has no place in politics(or anywhere else for that matter).

I've discussed the JFK assassination with my 80 year old mother, who is a life long Democrat, as was my father. She often tells me she was watching As the World Turns, standing in front of the TV and behind her ironing board, when Walter Cronkite broke the news. My father was at my uncle's, helping with some remodeling(I was in school, 5th grade I think). My mother called my father and he rushed home. By the time I got home from school, they were glued to the TV, along with my 2 older sisters. They were all crushed and crying, and I think I was more crushed seeing them. I was more mad after first hearing the announcement at school(I was only 9), and didn't know what to think.  It all scared the crap out of me.

Richard

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you Richard, you're definitely one of the most intelligent people here, and a major credit to this community, and I greatly admire you and your opinions on everything.

My grandmother turns 67 this year, and she remembers seeing Oswald get shot, and feeling so completely shocked. She doesn't remember doing anything but watching television for days. My mother was only a year and a half old at the time ( born in April 62 ), so she has no memories of it.

I disagree with Bush on civil liberties, but I would not wish harm to him or his family ( including his LOVELY wife Laura, who I insist is second only to Jackie Kennedy as far as my ideal First Lady ) - and I don't think anyone here would, but my challenge to anyone is - why wouldn't you care about that?

The news media today puts Gerald Posner up in a pretty little frame in their evening specials and insist, "Well, that's it, then." Later in the night, they'll talk about Britney Spears' new dress or if Jennifer Lopez is pregnant. It's FINE for them to gossip about pointless areas of the lives of celebrities ( most of which aren't even talented ), but if you even remotely suggest that a member of the government was involved in the murder of the President, you're written off as a psycho.

There's a popular UK comedian called Ali G, he's a well-educated white man who speaks in ebonics and has phrases such as "Is it because I is black?" I was watching his show on American HBO, and he was talking to someone from the CIA, and made the joke, "So, back to the grassy knoll, who actually shot JR?" ( Woo for 'Dallas,' and yes, I actually do know of things that happened in the 1980's ) And the guy did a double-take and paused and said, "JFK?" This, really stunned me - the death of our President is now a joke. We, sitting here, talking about this, are considered a JOKE - but people who make thousands of dollars snapping pictures of Jennifer Aniston buying coffee are encouraged.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

____________________________

Just shows how far we have "evolved".

Nic I know you're home schooled, that's why I made the joke about our school system, where you'd never learn what you know.

YOur mom was smart to home school you, but as for her politics, well that's a different story.

Dawn

[Dixie Dea]

Well, I have to say I did not vote for JFK. I was a Nixon supporter, but at the time, I believed him to be a much different person then I believe he actually was today. But then, I am also a much different person today, then I was then.

I was a fairly young wife and mother and was quite innocent and nieve and trusted Government.....plus I was very conservative and Republican. I did not usually see bad in people. But I just did not think very much of the Kennedy's. Actually though, I knew very little about JFK as a President, I just mainly didn't approve of their lifestyles.

I do recall The Bay of Pigs, although I don't recall my thoughts about it at the time. Then there was the Missle Crisis! That, I do recall was a quite scary time for us. A friend of ours, got called to report to base immedialtely (Nellis AFB in Las Vegas). He had no idea what was happening, but when he returned home, he told us they were all set and just waiting for the word to fly to Cuba in a minutes notice. But, of course they did't have to go! We would not have knwon how close it was, until our friend told us about it.

When JFK was assassinated, we lived in Las Vegas and had just bought our first home. As Richard mentioned about his mother, I was also watching As The World Turns. Suddenly, Walter Cronkite came on with a Special News Report. I can stil recall being somewhat annoyed that it interrupted my soap opera. But that was only a momentary thought, because of what I heard next. I was in shock! This couldn't be real, this was our president and such things don't happen in America! At that moment, it made no difference that I hadn't voted for him or what I thought of his lifestyle. It was just unbelievable.

After a few minutes, I called my husband at work to see if he had heard the bad news. Both him and his boss were listening to it on the radio and he was just fixing to call me. We called back and forth all afternoon and I also recall just needing to talk to someone and didn't want to be alone. I believe when an announcement was made that JFK had died, I just had a terrible feeling he would not live. When my husband got home from work, we stayed glued to the TV all weekend. Well, actually I did so, more then he did.

Then, that Sunday morning, I was getting the kids ready for Church and heard some commotion coming from the TV, in the other room. I hurried in to see what was happening and Jack Ruby had just shot Oswald. I missed seeing it as it happened, but of course, have seen a rerun many times.

So, that gave me a lot more shock. I also kept wondering how such a thing could happen, with all the policemen around there. I have no idea why, but the more i heard the more I believed the whole thing was rather fishy. I just couldn't seem to believe all we were being told.

This thought has never left my mind, although it was some time before I ever expressed my (secret) thoughts to anyone. However, I did read all I could find and one day discovered I was not alone in the thoughts I had. That gave me a lot of encouragement to continue studying what I was able to find...which was actually not a whole lot. Other the the Library or in case I accidently found a JFK related book in a book store, I had no idea how to obtain any of the books that were coming out at that time.

So, it made no difference to me that i had not voted for JFK. I still had very strong feelings about what happened. Of course in time, I also began to view JFK in a different light then I had previously.

Dixie

Edited January 20, 2005 by Dixie Dea

[Richard J. Smith]

Then there was the Missile Crisis! That, I do recall was a quite scary time for us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Dixie, talk about scared! I was 8 years old, and I vividly remember watching JFK's speech to the nation. That "offensive missiles in Cuba" and the "full retaliatory response" thing REALLY scared the bajesus out of me. After the speech, I remember actually going outside and looking up, hoping I didn't see missiles streaking across the night sky. That was stuff those 50's movies were made of, and it was REAL. I hadn't remembered that until you mentioned it. It was a pretty frightening time for a kid. I've got a knot in my stomach just thinking about it now!

Richard

[Ron Ecker]

The Cuban Missile Crisis was indeed scary. My fear during the crisis was alleviated slightly by the fact that my uncle who lived next door began converting his basement into a bomb shelter. It was comforting to know that if worse came to worse and the bombs started following, we didn't have far to run to get to my uncle's shelter. And he would have plenty of water and canned goods there to get us through the radiation and all.

As for the JFK assassination, I was walking down a stairwell in the University of Florida library when word came that the president had been shot. I remember two reactions among the students when word came that he was dead. One was by a girl in my English class, who said matter-of-factly, "That's too bad. I kind of liked him." The other was by a guy who lived in an apartment across the hall from mine. He said, "I'm glad they shot the son of a bitch." (When he said that, I better understood why this guy had his own little pistol firing range in his apartment.)

I also recall that the idea of a conspiracy never entered my mind, and that for some 20 years I never questioned Oswald's guilt, mainly I guess because I resisted reading the books that questioned the government's story. I don't know how to explain that except as denial, which is a frustrating thing when you try to argue with someone who has it.

Ron

[Paul Troglia]

I hadn't remembered that until you mentioned it. It was a pretty frightening time for a kid. I've got a knot in my stomach just thinking about it now!

We came SO close! When the Russians turned back, Dean Rusk made a comment I'll never forget: We are eyeball to eyeball, and I think the other fellow just blinked.

Oh, there are some who say the real hero of the crisis was Kruschev because he backed down, realizing Kennedy would actually go to war for that island. IMO Kennedy was the hero. Fair play for Cuba, but for real.

[Frank Agbat]

Nic,

When it comes to Politics, I'm certainly no liberal.

I'm a Libertarian, to be honest about it. I tend to be fiscally ultra-conservative (small government, lower taxes, less nuisancesome regulation, personal responsibility, etc) but socially moderate to liberal (government has no business in my private life, get off my back, etc).

It doesn't matter to me if an elected official is a Republican, a Democrat, or of a different party. America is OUR country, OUR elected government. ONLY the voters (and our duely legislated laws) have the right to remove that person from office. Neither a lone nut gunman nor a conspiratorial cabal holds that right over the voters.

Yes -- I, too, am offended and deeply concerned that the public is more interested in J-Lo or whatever slut-du-jour is in vogue at the time than in serious topics. I don't know if it is just my perception as I grow older or if it is actual fact, but it seems to be getting worse as time passes.

Regards,

Frank

[John Ritchson]

Nic:

Kudos for another thought provoking post.

It's a question that has given me pause to think ever since Reagon was shot.

In a nutshell, I've personally had a belly full of blood and death as well as the other manifestations of the Dark-Side of human nature and I find myself asking the same question as was so simply put by Rodney King, 'Why can't we all just get along?"

I would not wish and do not wish harm to anyone or anything that exists upon what is known in my Native American tradition as our Earth Mother and her Soul/Life-Spirit which is also called Gia by some. [i have returned to my ancient

Irish/Indian heritage as a means of finding comfort and solace in a world that often seems to have gone mad.]

That said, I still get teary-eyed when my flag passes and the band strikes up our National Anthem, as well as witnessing the individual and collective nobility and heroism of people, such as watching a police officer or fireman or a simple civilian put his/her life on the line for a complete stranger, or the bravery and nobility of the people of New York during 9/11, or how the world is responding to the terrible tragedy of the Pacific Quake and Tsunami. It is those things which give me hope for the future of our world and her people.

Nic, a couple miles from my home is the location of Malmstrom Air-Force Base which is one of the operational centers for the deployment of the Strategic Minuteman Missle System, possessing the thermo-nuclear capability of obliterating all life upon this world. I interact on an almost daily basis with the men and women who must maintain and operate this system whose employment is too horrible for me to even contemplate, and I can tell you with certainty that not a single one of them I have ever known wants to push that button, but such is the cloud we all live under, so I listen to Enya and pray to the Four Spirits and do what I can to maintain/restore sanity and justice and humanity for the sake of my children and grandchildren and our future generations yet unborn.

Respectfully and Warmest Regards:

Edited January 21, 2005 by John Ritchson

[Nic Martin]

Nic,

When it comes to Politics, I'm certainly no liberal.

I'm a Libertarian, to be honest about it.  I tend to be fiscally ultra-conservative (small government, lower taxes, less nuisancesome regulation, personal responsibility, etc) but socially moderate to liberal (government has no business in my private life, get off my back, etc).

It doesn't matter to me if an elected official is a Republican, a Democrat, or of a different party.  America is OUR country, OUR elected government.  ONLY the voters (and our duely legislated laws) have the right to remove that person from office.  Neither a lone nut gunman nor a conspiratorial cabal holds that right over the voters.

Yes -- I, too, am offended and deeply concerned that the public is more interested in J-Lo or whatever slut-du-jour is in vogue at the time than in serious topics.  I don't know if it is just my perception as I grow older or if it is actual fact, but it seems to be getting worse as time passes. 

Regards,

Frank

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, a Libertarian! Well, at least now I know I'm not the only one leaning that way. I'm still irritated that I couldn't vote this time around ( you have to be 17 and 10 months by September to vote in a November election in Texas, and I'd just turned 17 in July ), but 3% of this county went for Badnarik, which surprised me.

And it is definitely getting worse - what happened to the Bob Woodwards? Today "investigative journalism" is why Brad & Jen broke up. My mother, for instance, is perfectly content to just watch 30 minutes of the news and then an hour of Entertainment Tonight & Access Hollywood. Sure, I like pop culture, but mainly how it relates to history. Why Bob Dylan's angst was popular in the tubulent sixties, or why Kurt Cobain's legend was secured because he played with a shotgun.

[Dawn Meredith]

The print they later found on the gun was put there after he was in the morgue.

Dawn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please specify if this is opinion or if you have a reference for this. Thanks.

There is enough evidence to suggest that Lee ordered the rifle, received the rifle, and possessed the rifle. Marina has never wavered in her testimonies and statements that she saw the rifle, and while in New Orleans, saw Lee cleaning the rifle. Whether he fired the rifle on November 22 is another matter.

RJS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

_______________________________

Richard, re the LHO print being planted after his death: this is not an opinion, but I do not have time to cite sources, except two, Garrison, in his Playboy interview in 1967, and a second source who was a Dallas police officer that day and wishes to remain annonymous. There are other sources for this and I will get them when I have more time, I have an all day work commitment today, so cannot at the moment, but I will.

Dawn

[Paul Troglia]

The print they later found on the gun was put there after he was in the morgue.

Dawn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please specify if this is opinion or if you have a reference for this. Thanks.

There is enough evidence to suggest that Lee ordered the rifle, received the rifle, and possessed the rifle. Marina has never wavered in her testimonies and statements that she saw the rifle, and while in New Orleans, saw Lee cleaning the rifle. Whether he fired the rifle on November 22 is another matter.

RJS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

_______________________________

Richard, re the LHO print being planted after his death: this is not an opinion, but I do not have time to cite sources, except two, Garrison, in his Playboy interview in 1967, and a second source who was a Dallas police officer that day and wishes to remain annonymous. There are other sources for this and I will get them when I have more time, I have an all day work commitment today, so cannot at the moment, but I will.

Dawn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dawn,

Lack of time in solving the crime of the 20th century? Really.

PT

[Antti Hynonen]

Paul Troglia Posted Today, 03:51 AM

  QUOTE(Dawn Meredith @ Jan 22 2005, 02:42 PM)

QUOTE(Richard J. Smith @ Jan 20 2005, 02:10 AM)

QUOTE(Dawn Meredith @ Jan 19 2005, 01:03 PM)

The print they later found on the gun was put there after he was in the morgue.

Dawn

Please specify if this is opinion or if you have a reference for this. Thanks.

There is enough evidence to suggest that Lee ordered the rifle, received the rifle, and possessed the rifle. Marina has never wavered in her testimonies and statements that she saw the rifle, and while in New Orleans, saw Lee cleaning the rifle. Whether he fired the rifle on November 22 is another matter.

RJS

_______________________________

Richard, re the LHO print being planted after his death: this is not an opinion, but I do not have time to cite sources, except two, Garrison, in his Playboy interview in 1967, and a second source who was a Dallas police officer that day and wishes to remain annonymous. There are other sources for this and I will get them when I have more time, I have an all day work commitment today, so cannot at the moment, but I will.

Dawn

Dawn,

Lack of time in solving the crime of the 20th century? Really.

PT

Paul, Richard,

if you were to watch the informative A&E and History channel series "The Men Who Killed Kennedy", you would know about this particular incident and many more sources of information.

This is from memory, so others may jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Mortician Paul Groody, then of the Miller Funeral home, testified that during the late evening of Nov. 24th 1963, or around that date, two agents came to the funeral home and asked to see the body of Lee Oswald. Groody showed them to the body which he had prepared for the funeral.

The "Agents" were left alone with the body. Soon after they left, Groody went in and discovered that Lee Oswald hands were covered in ink and Groody had to remove the ink, so the body would be presentable at the funeral.

The argument here was that among others, the prints obtained that evening at the funeral home were actually (a palm print) placed on the Mannlicher rifle too. I don't know of the details. However, the whole thing is quite suspicious as Lee Oswald was fingerprinted at the DPD not once, but as I recall 3 times already.

The fact is that immediately no prints were found on the rifle, then all of a sudden a palm print was discovered (2 or 3 days later....) , probably because it was needed.