Steve Roe-More Confusion surrounding the General Walker Shooting

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:

The DPD would have been used to homicides involving hand guns and shotguns. Homicides involving rifles would have been rare. Hand guns use naked lead bullets. Therefore for the DPD to find a bullet that had a jacket of any kind on it, as in the Walker shooting, would have been so rare that one could understand how they could use the wrong phraseology when describing it - "steel jacketed" meaning it was not of the naked lead type they were used to dealing with.

There are both steel-jacketed and copper-jacketed bullets widely manufactured for handguns. Look online. 

In one minute of google-searching I came across steel-plated .38 handgun bullets, made during WWII. 

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/vintage-38-special-with-steel-jacketed-projectile/44336/2

Modern era, still the same. 

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-safe-to-shoot-steel-ammo-in-a-Glock-handgun#:~:text=So will steel cased ammo,make gun barrels and actions.

 

I have never read anyone anywhere (except in FBI agent Frazier's commentary) refer to a copper-jacketed bullet as a "steel-jacketed" bullet, especially when the copper is copper-colored and torn asunder, revealing the bullet to be copper-jacketed.

I conjecture Detective McElroy found a mangled, unidentifiable steel-jacketed bullet at the Walker home, and properly recorded as much. McElroy then deduced, based on the power of the bullet on display---it had passed through a wall---that it likely was issued from a rifle. In general, rifles are more powerful than handguns.

But in fact, a powerful handgun, such as .357 Magnum, could have achieved the same results. We do not know the constitution of the wall in the Walker home. 

There are no witnesses of any type of weapon used that night, as you know. 

Maybe a rifle was used, maybe a handgun. 

Curiously, McElroy told the FBI that he, McElroy, found the spent bullet and gave it to the crime-scene boys...leaving Patrolman Novell out of the loop. 

Why did Detective McElroy say that? 

 

 

 

[Gerry Down]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

There are both steel-jacketed and copper-jacketed bullets widely manufactured for handguns. Look online. 

In one minute of google-searching I came across steel-plated .38 handgun bullets, made during WWII. 

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/vintage-38-special-with-steel-jacketed-projectile/44336/2

Modern era, still the same. 

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-safe-to-shoot-steel-ammo-in-a-Glock-handgun#:~:text=So will steel cased ammo,make gun barrels and actions.

 

I have never read anyone anywhere (except in FBI agent Frazier's commentary) refer to a copper-jacketed bullet as a "steel-jacketed" bullet, especially when the copper is copper-colored and torn asunder, revealing the bullet to be copper-jacketed.

I conjecture Detective McElroy found a mangled, unidentifiable steel-jacketed bullet at the Walker home, and properly recorded as much. McElroy then deduced, based on the power of the bullet on display---it had passed through a wall---that it likely was issued from a rifle. In general, rifles are more powerful than handguns.

But in fact, a powerful handgun, such as .357 Magnum, could have achieved the same results. We do not know the constitution of the wall in the Walker home. 

There are no witnesses of any type of weapon used that night, as you know. 

Maybe a rifle was used, maybe a handgun. 

Curiously, McElroy told the FBI that he, McElroy, found the spent bullet and gave it to the crime-scene boys...leaving Patrolman Novell out of the loop. 

Why did Detective McElroy say that? 

 

 

 

The link you provided backs up my point. First the poster uses the term "copperclad steel jacketed" which proves that some people refer to copper wrapped bullets as "steel jacketed". Next it says that basically handguns used bare lead bullets, the only handguns that use coated lead bullets are for military use. Dallas wasn't at war with anyone in 1963, so the bullets DPD officers were used to were bare lead ones.

[Gerry Down]

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Edited April 6, 2023 by Gerry Down

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:

The link you provided backs up my point. First the poster uses the term "copperclad steel jacketed" which proves that some people refer to copper wrapped bullets as "steel jacketed". Next it says that basically handguns used bare lead bullets, the only handguns that use coated lead bullets are for military use. Dallas wasn't at war with anyone in 1963, so the bullets DPD officers were used to were bare lead ones.

Yes, there are copper-clad, or gilded, steel-jacketed bullets. That is well-known, and has been discussed on this board and in my articles, many times. 

The copper-gilding, on top of a steel-jacketed bullet, is intended to reduce wear and tear on the rifle or gun barrel. 

Yes, whether rifle or for handguns, most bullet-slugs in the US are lead only. 

However, copper-jacketed and steel-jacketed bullets have long been common, for both handguns and rifles. Some gun enthusiasts prefer the jacketed bullets. 

I have looked through the literature for decades. I have never seen anyone refer to copper-jacketed bullets as "steel jacketed." 

I cannot imagine any middling detective looking at CE573 and identifying it as "steel jacketed." That dog don't hunt.

It remains curious that DPD Detective McElroy told the FBI that he, McElroy, found the spent bullet in the Walker home, and gave the mangled slug to the crime scene boys---meaning Novell did not handle the bullet, if McElroy's version of events is true. 

And erstwhile patrolman Novell is the only DPD'er the WC asked to verify the chain-of-evidence.

I have reasonable doubts about CE573. 

[Chuck Schwartz]

This is how the Walker shooting was presented back in the day, "

The Walker Shooting

In addition to the Kennedy–Tippit killings, the Warren Commission also “convicted” Oswald of attempting to murder General Edwin A. Walker in April, 1963. But they neglected to take testimony from:

• Walter Kirk Coleman, a teen–age neighbor of General Walker, who saw two men flee the scene by car after the shot was heard. Oswald could not drive, and the Report said he was alone.
• Detective Ira Van Cleave, who participated in the original investigation of the Walker shooting and who told the press at that time that the bullet had been “identified as a 30.06,” which rules out Oswald’s Carcano rifle."                                                       
•  
•  In other words the Walker shooting was an attempt to show LHO as a violent communist- many saw through this and realized that this was legend building.

[Benjamin Cole]

51 minutes ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

This is how the Walker shooting was presented back in the day, "

The Walker Shooting

In addition to the Kennedy–Tippit killings, the Warren Commission also “convicted” Oswald of attempting to murder General Edwin A. Walker in April, 1963. But they neglected to take testimony from:

• Walter Kirk Coleman, a teen–age neighbor of General Walker, who saw two men flee the scene by car after the shot was heard. Oswald could not drive, and the Report said he was alone.
• Detective Ira Van Cleave, who participated in the original investigation of the Walker shooting and who told the press at that time that the bullet had been “identified as a 30.06,” which rules out Oswald’s Carcano rifle."                                                       
•  
•  In other words the Walker shooting was an attempt to show LHO as a violent communist- many saw through this and realized that this was legend building.

Do you have a cite on Ira Van Cleave? 

[Chuck Schwartz]

This may help...

The Bullet and the Rifle

The bullet used in the attempted shooting of Walker was probably not the same type as those used in the JFK assassination. According to various newspaper accounts (e.g. ‘Walker Escapes Assassin’s Bullet’, New York Times, 12 April 1963, p.12), the Dallas police claimed that the bullet was a 30.06 calibre; the bullet shells from the Texas School Book Depository were 6.5mm. The Walker bullet was too severely deformed to allow a conclusive analysis of its pattern of grooves. A spectrographic examination by Henry Heilberger of the FBI laboratory found that the lead alloy in the bullet was different from that of bullet fragments found in President Kennedy’s car (FBI HQ JFK Assassination File, 62–109060–22).

Dr Vincent Guinn performed neutron activation analysis on the bullet fired at General Walker, as well as several bullet fragments associated with the JFK assassination. He claimed that the Walker bullet was “extremely likely” to be a fragment from the same type of bullet as those fired at President Kennedy (HSCA Report, appendix vol.1, p.502), but his methodology and results have since been refuted (see How Reliable is the Neutron Activation Analysis Evidence in the JFK Assassination?).

The Walker bullet had been fired from a rifle powerful enough to send it through brickwork, which the Mannlicher–Carcano rifle was not. There is no evidence that Oswald ever had access to such a rifle.

Not only did the bullet and rifle have no association with Lee Harvey Oswald, but Edwin Walker was adamant that Commission Exhibit 573, the bullet offered in evidence, was not the one he had examined at the time of the shooting; see Justice Department Criminal Division File 62–117290–1473 for Walker’s correspondence with the Justice Department on this matter.

Oswald’s Motive for Shooting Walker

Oswald’s supposed motive for shooting at Walker was political. Walker was well known for his very right–wing views. He had been forced to resign from the Army for indoctrinating his troops with the ideas of the John Birch Society and for announcing publicly that President Truman, among other prominent American politicians, was a communist sympathiser (see Walker’s obituary in the New York Times).

Although the alleged presidential assassin was officially supposed to have been a communist, the known facts of Lee Harvey Oswald’s career show that he was closely associated with one or more US intelligence agencies, and that his pro–communist public persona was highly likely to have been a fake.

With no plausible motive and no substantial grounds for believing that Oswald was involved in the attempted shooting of Walker, and no strong evidence that Oswald was guilty of the JFK assassination, it seems that the Walker shooting was attributed to Oswald by the FBI and the Warren Commission purely to support the notion that Oswald was a leftist malcontent with a propensity for violence.

More Information

For detailed discussions of the shooting of Edwin Walker, see:

• Gerald D. McKnight, Breach of Trust: How the Warren Commission Failed the Nation and Why, University Press of Kansas, 2005, pp.48–59.
• Sylvia Meagher, Accessories After the Fact: the Warren Commission, the Authorities, and the Report, Vintage, 1992, pp.283–292.

[Benjamin Cole]

9 hours ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

This may help...

The Bullet and the Rifle

The bullet used in the attempted shooting of Walker was probably not the same type as those used in the JFK assassination. According to various newspaper accounts (e.g. ‘Walker Escapes Assassin’s Bullet’, New York Times, 12 April 1963, p.12), the Dallas police claimed that the bullet was a 30.06 calibre; the bullet shells from the Texas School Book Depository were 6.5mm. The Walker bullet was too severely deformed to allow a conclusive analysis of its pattern of grooves. A spectrographic examination by Henry Heilberger of the FBI laboratory found that the lead alloy in the bullet was different from that of bullet fragments found in President Kennedy’s car (FBI HQ JFK Assassination File, 62–109060–22).

Dr Vincent Guinn performed neutron activation analysis on the bullet fired at General Walker, as well as several bullet fragments associated with the JFK assassination. He claimed that the Walker bullet was “extremely likely” to be a fragment from the same type of bullet as those fired at President Kennedy (HSCA Report, appendix vol.1, p.502), but his methodology and results have since been refuted (see How Reliable is the Neutron Activation Analysis Evidence in the JFK Assassination?).

The Walker bullet had been fired from a rifle powerful enough to send it through brickwork, which the Mannlicher–Carcano rifle was not. There is no evidence that Oswald ever had access to such a rifle.

Not only did the bullet and rifle have no association with Lee Harvey Oswald, but Edwin Walker was adamant that Commission Exhibit 573, the bullet offered in evidence, was not the one he had examined at the time of the shooting; see Justice Department Criminal Division File 62–117290–1473 for Walker’s correspondence with the Justice Department on this matter.

Oswald’s Motive for Shooting Walker

Oswald’s supposed motive for shooting at Walker was political. Walker was well known for his very right–wing views. He had been forced to resign from the Army for indoctrinating his troops with the ideas of the John Birch Society and for announcing publicly that President Truman, among other prominent American politicians, was a communist sympathiser (see Walker’s obituary in the New York Times).

Although the alleged presidential assassin was officially supposed to have been a communist, the known facts of Lee Harvey Oswald’s career show that he was closely associated with one or more US intelligence agencies, and that his pro–communist public persona was highly likely to have been a fake.

With no plausible motive and no substantial grounds for believing that Oswald was involved in the attempted shooting of Walker, and no strong evidence that Oswald was guilty of the JFK assassination, it seems that the Walker shooting was attributed to Oswald by the FBI and the Warren Commission purely to support the notion that Oswald was a leftist malcontent with a propensity for violence.

More Information

For detailed discussions of the shooting of Edwin Walker, see:

• Gerald D. McKnight, Breach of Trust: How the Warren Commission Failed the Nation and Why, University Press of Kansas, 2005, pp.48–59.
• Sylvia Meagher, Accessories After the Fact: the Warren Commission, the Authorities, and the Report, Vintage, 1992, pp.283–292.

Thanks!

[Benjamin Cole]

On 4/5/2023 at 12:41 PM, Mark Ulrik said:

It's not visible in other NIST photos. Here's an unenhanced crop:

M Ulrik:

What is the size of that "N"? 

 

Is it an "N" or a "V" next to a smear of some sort? 

[Mark Ulrik]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

M Ulrik:

What is the size of that "N"?

Is it an "N" or a "V" next to a smear of some sort? 

The "N" is only a couple of mm tall. Not sure where you see the smear.

[Benjamin Cole]

10 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

The "N" is only a couple of mm tall. Not sure where you see the smear.

The left "leg" of the "N" looks like it mat be an extension of a darker streak n the bullet. Meaning the mark is a "V." 

A 2 millimeters high, do you think that mark is made by a human? 

Are there any other "N"s on the CE573? 

[Benjamin Cole]

11 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

The "N" is only a couple of mm tall. Not sure where you see the smear.

Two millimeters in height is 0.079 inches. 

Do you think this "N" on the CE573 is the mark made by Norvell?