Decipherment of the James Odell Estes story (Carousel Club July-Aug 1963)

[Joe Bauer]

 

I would think a woman car buying customer would pick that car color more than a man.

It's very feminine.

I picture a very pretty woman owning and driving this car.

Not a macho man. Especially a Texas macho man.

Same with a Dallas cop.

Jack Ruby, Crafard even Oswald himself would look...well...out of place driving a car that color.

Same with a "pink" color car.

Didn't Ruby stripper "Jada" drive a pink Caddie?  And a convertible at that?

### Correction.

Carousel Club stripper "Jada" did indeed drive a Caddie convertible.

However, it was "white" in color.

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Leslie Sharp]

15 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Fact check

The only connection of your lengthy post filled with free-association of names to the topic--the James Odell Estes story--is a connection you claim to New Orleans restauranteur and Marcello associate Nick Popich, who has been conjectured as one possibility for the identity of Estes' "Nick" figure. 

You write: "As revealed in a 1964 article detailing Bobby Baker's role in the F-111 scandal, in May 1963, Nick Popich played host to his business associate, Puerto Rican Paul Aguirre along with Baker, his girlfriend Nancy Carole Tyler, and Ellen Rometsch.**"

This Nick Popich claim is not found in Coup in Dallas--in fact Popich does not appear in the Coup in Dallas index at all--so this Nick Popich detail is something newly originated or presented by you here on my thread, which you then utilized as the launch pad to seque to some Lafitte datebook names and entries. 

I assume you did your own research here since it appears under your name not credited to anyone else?

Could you identify your reference for your statement concerning Nick Popich: "As revealed in a 1964 article ... Nick Popich played host to ... Aguirre along with [Bobby] Baker, his girlfriend Nancy Carole Tyler, and Ellen Rometsch"?

What 1964 article reveals that?

Your two stars go to a footnote citing a 1964 book,The Bobby Baker Affair, by G.R. Schreiber. 

There is no reference to Nick Popich in that book. I know, because I checked today. Wasted 90 minutes of my precious time trying to find your claimed reference in that book (the book has no index), and it isn't there. The name Nick Popich isn't in the book. 

Were you referring to a different 1964 article? If so, could you give the citation, and the quote from it? Or did a source supply you with an erroneous claim, or was it originated by yourself? 

I ask that responses to this be kept brief and to the point, if possible, rather than go further afield into non-James Odell Estes-related matters. 

Greg, 

I have been researching the Kennedy assassination in Dallas since 1993.

I am currently engaged on Ed Forum to advance the cold case investigation. Perhaps you might define how long you have been committed to studying the assassination and clarify your purpose here.

"Your" thread relates to the incident at the Carousel Club. Reference to a "Nick" appears in the episode and I have provided research to suggest that Nick Popich of New Orleans is a prime candidate.

Take it or leave it.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Greg Doudna]

2 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Greg, 

You're right of course that I can't prove that the same 1961 Chevy Impala ridden in by Estes was the same one seen by Bowers, but might I point out that an "off-green color" was probably Chevrolet's "Seafoam Green".

Further, since the 1961 Impala seen by Bowers was "muddy up to the windows", might I suggest that a dirty up to the windows Seafoam Green (with white accents, maybe?) might be described as "white" by Lee Bowers at a distance in the Texas noonday sun?

The reason I focused on this was because the last Bowers saw of this car, the lone male driver was not only circling the parking lot adjacent to the TSBD just before the assassination, but 

"Mr. BALL - Then did he leave?
Mr. BOWERS - The last I saw of him he was pausing just about in--just above the assassination site."

Now, I don't know what Bowers meant by "just above the assassination site". He was looking at a car near the fence on the grassy knoll, not a car hovering in mid-air above the sixth-floor window of the TSBD.

But since Joseph Ball asked no clarifying questions of Bowers (i.e., "What do you mean - ' just above the assassination site'?"), we can only guess at Bowers cryptic statement. 

 

In any event, what about this one?

Estes said that the second time that he and Lee Oswald went to Possum Kingdom Lake, they drove in the waitress/go-go dancer's "1963 Galaxie Ford with Texas plates."

Now according to W.P. Gannaway's helpful report (which you linked earlier - good work!), Barbara Bonnie Gene Jean Louise Hethcoat Kelly Kellough did not have a spare penny to her name as of late November 1963. 

[Intelligence Report - Bonnie Louise Kellough, January 23, 1964] - Page 1 of 2 - The Portal to Texas History (unt.edu)

So how did Ms. Cutie Pie get herself a brand-new Ford Galaxie to use?

Hmm.

By an amazing coincidence, Jack Ruby's club at which our girl worked in 1963 was regularly frequented by several/many/dozens/hundreds of different officers, both on and off duty, of the Dallas Police Department!

Who knew?

And the Dallas Police Department's official vehicles for both marked and unmarked patrol cars were . . . 

1963 Ford Galaxies.

JFK Files: Replica 1963 Dallas police squad car to honor officer slain by Lee Harvey Oswald

One can only ponder the vast mystery of how an attractive 23-year-old woman, working in various capacities at a strip joint, might have had access to vehicle the exact same make and model year as the very cops she served at Ruby's place every night . . . 

Such a riddle . . . 

Very interesting Paul on Estes' "Bobby Kelly", Bonnie Kellough, having a brand-new 1963 Ford Galaxie, the same model car used by the Dallas Police Department and many other police departments for their patrol cars, two months before she is nearly indigent. Estes also says she gave him, Estes, money to buy a car for himself to assist in his leaving Dallas, when she seems to have urged Estes to get out of town hurriedly for his safety.

The Diana Hunter book, Jack Ruby's Girls, referred to on page 1 of this thread, has recent-hire pretty Bonnie as a "favorite" of Ruby, with other girls jealous of Bonnie because Ruby favored her. Maybe that translated into somehow Ruby steering a new car Bonnie's way? Or maybe it was just lent to Bonnie?

After the assassination and Ruby was arrested for having killed Oswald, Bonnie would be receiving no more favoritism or gifts from Ruby, if Ruby perchance was the source of the car. 

Bonnie also had (I think I remember from the Diana Hunter book) an ex- (or was it current but not living with him) husband, and a child not living with her at the time she was in Dallas. 

Bonnie last known headed to Los Angeles late 1963, then unknown. Wonder what became of her.  

Or the child, who could be still living today somewhere.

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Very interesting Paul on Estes' "Bobby Kelly", Bonnie Kellough, having a brand-new 1963 Ford Galaxie, the same model car used by the Dallas Police Department and many other police departments for their patrol cars, two months before she is nearly indigent. Estes also says she gave him, Estes, money to buy a car for himself to assist in his leaving Dallas, when she seems to have urged Estes to get out of town hurriedly for his safety.

The Diana Hunter book, Jack Ruby's Girls, referred to on page 1 of this thread, has recent-hire pretty Bonnie as a "favorite" of Ruby, with other girls jealous of Bonnie because Ruby favored her. Maybe that translated into somehow Ruby steering a new car Bonnie's way? Or maybe it was just lent to Bonnie?

After the assassination and Ruby was arrested for having killed Oswald, Bonnie would be receiving no more favoritism or gifts from Ruby, if Ruby perchance was the source of the car. 

Bonnie also had (I think I remember from the Diana Hunter book) an ex- (or was it current but not living with him) husband, and a child not living with her at the time she was in Dallas. 

Bonnie last known headed to Los Angeles late 1963, then unknown. Wonder what became of her.  

Or the child, who could be still living today somewhere.

Greg,

I haven't done any research on Ms. Kellough's possible whereabouts since 1963, but I do have (yet another) candidate for the "Nick" as described by Estes.

Before I go on, I want to point out that you and I both agree that Estes was absolutely truthful in his recollection of events at Ruby's place in the summer of 1963. 

You and I might disagree over some of the possible identities of the people involved, but we agree that unraveling Estes' story is important, and maybe crucial.

OK, enough of the preliminary.

According to Estes, he was never introduced to "Nick", but overheard that name used in Ruby's office while serving drinks to Ruby, "Nick", "Chuck", and Oswald.

Estes described "Nick" as "a white male but had a dark complexion. He was in early thirties or forties. He was about six foot two inches tall and he weighed over two hundred pounds. He had a very big frame. He had real black hair cut short. (Hand-written above that, it reads: "he had a mustache.")"

 

Later, Estes described the dagger and snake tattoo on "Nick's" right arm.

 

Estes said that "Nick" drove a 1962 or '63 maroon Cadillac, was a flashy dresser and hauled around a black briefcase, seemingly filled with cash. 

Estes claimed to have seen "Nick" only twice, on consecutive days. The second time (a weekday during the first or second week of August), the original four men were joined by (allegedly) John Connally and (Jim Leavelle.) 

 

I think is very unlikely that this early August meeting had anything to do with the late November assassination: the presidential trip to Texas was still three and half months away, and had not yet even been formulated in Washington, let alone planned, finalized and announced publicly. 

 

Whatever was going on in Ruby's office probably had much more to do with money-laundering, possibly campaign cash.

(Could the Carousel Club and Jack Ruby have been a backdoor conduit for illegal campaign donations to be laundered through a cash-only business before being handed over to politicians?

I don't know, but I do know that Ruby handled enormous amounts of cash on a daily basis and kept very few records. That sure sounds like an ideal business to use, if someone wanted to hide large amounts of cash. And Jack Ruby seemed to be just the kind of guy to go along with such an arrangement.)

 

Anyway, Estes never claimed that "Nick" was an employee of Ruby's at the Carousel.

 

So who was "Nick"?

 

Well, we know from WC Exhibit 1567 that Ruby had a list of 23 names, addresses, and phone numbers which he carried about on his person.

 

Among the names was a "Nick Turman TA 46229" (A local Dallas phone number)

 

Warren Commission, Volume XXIII: CE 1567 - FBI report dated December 9, 1963, of interview of Bryan Powell at Dallas, Tex. (CD 86, p. 343-346). (history-matters.com)

 

I don't know who this "Nick Turman" was, but he mattered to Jack Ruby.

 

What I do know is that Ruby had known and employed (on a sporadic basis for several years) a professional heavyweight boxer to work security/general management around the Vegas Club. This man freely admitted that he was working for Ruby at the Vegas Club between January and July of 1963. This boxer was constantly short of cash, and Ruby gave him money regularly. 

 

History Matters Archive - Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXII, pg (history-matters.com)

 

His name was Reagan "Buddy" Turman. I do not know if he, Buddy, ever used the name "Nick", but I now know he had a younger brother named "Nickie" who died in 1999.

Nickie Turman (1940 - 1999) - Genealogy (geni.com)

 

This Ruby employee, Buddy Turman, fit the general, hanger-on type who would have been useful to Jack Ruby, particularly when it came to handling large amounts of cash. 

 

So, to sum up:

1. We know that Ruby carried with him the phone number of a "Nick Turman,"

2. We know that Ruby employed a man named Buddy Turman who had a brother named "Nickie Turman."

3. This Buddy Turman was a perfect match to the physical description of "Nick" provided in 1977 by the then nearly blind Odell Estes.

4. This same Buddy Turman knew and had worked for Jack Ruby for years at the Vegas Club! 

 

This connection to Jack Ruby isn't theoretical - it's real and proved beyond any doubt! 

 

 

Dark hair? (You bet.)

Big frame? (Without a doubt.)

Powerful six-footer? (Duh.)

Dark complexion? (Yup.)

 

This picture below of Buddy Turman was from his early twenties.

In 1963, when he was working for Jack Ruby at the Vegas Club, Turman turned 30. Did he have a slight mustache/and or a tattoo by then? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Greg Doudna]

Paul, I sure like your digging up details and suggesting possibilities. My main problem with the Buddy Turman idea for "Nick" is Buddy Turman was not named Nick. You point out that he had a brother Nicky or Nickie, and a phone number for the brother, written as "Nick Turman", was found on a paper of Jack Ruby. So there is a local "Nick" in Dallas known to Ruby, however nothing is known of the brother Nicky beyond he had a famous boxer brother (who worked for Ruby at the Vegas Club). Two other difficulties: Estes said his "Nick" drove a maroon Cadillac with Louisiana plates, also that his "Nick" spoke with what he called either a New Orleans or a Boston accent. Since the Turman brothers were all native Texans would the New Orleans or Boston accent fit?

There is a source on this that could be checked: I see that a still third brother of this family, Joe Garner Turman, was an author of several books including one about his famous boxer brother, Buddy: The Life of Texas Boxing Legend Buddy Turman, and another book which is his own memoirs (Memoirs: A Rusty Old Halo). I wonder if either of those books have anything interesting about Nicky or about Ruby or the Carousel Club. 

I continue to think that one of the Nicks associated with Marcello/mob circles in New Orleans is a best guess to look. And Jada arrived from New Orleans to the Carousel Club along in there although her arrival on July 17 is two or three weeks earlier than when Estes puts his "Nick" and Connally et al meeting in Ruby's office which Estes has approximately the first week in August or so. 

It is hard to imagine Jada and "Nick" would not have known each other, if both were from New Orleans and both associated with Ruby at the Carousel Club in such close proximity in time.

There have always been allegations of Ruby and Marcello contacts via Marcello surrogates but also allegations of directly. "Nick" as one such surrogate contact would agree well with the details given by Estes. 

Joe Bauer, interesting on suggesting that Seafoam Green color might be a woman's choice of car color rather than a man's. I know there is current research on gender and car color preferences but I looked but could not find any data from the 1960s, was just curious to check that. The one thing I don't think any data is needed to confirm though is that few men will buy a pink car like Jada's in any decade!  

[Karl Kinaski]

To complete the Oswald-Ruby thing a bit. 

Seems Hugh Ward, Anna and David Lewis, Oswald, Ruby, Ferrie, Marcello and Clay Shaw were socializing in the spring of 1963 in New Orleans. 

Quote from the book, ME AND LEE by Judyth Vary Baker 

Quote

 

JVB: Quote: "Neither Lee (LHO) nor Dave (Ferrie) ever disclosed to me that “Sparky Rubenstein” and “Jack Ruby” were the same person. They probably forgot that they had  never  told  me!  So  I  had  no  idea  when  Lee  talked  freely  of  Jack Ruby that he was speaking about Sparky Rubenstein. It would be a great shock when I finally learned — only in 1999! — that these were not two separate men (...)""

Thursday, June 6, 1963 (NOLA)
I (JVB) clocked out at five, and went back to Monaghan’s desk. (Reillys Coffee Company)Then the phone
rang. It was Dave Ferrie. “No lab work for you tonight, bright eyes,” he said. “I’ve taken care of it for you. And guess why?” “Because you’re a kind, sweet, wonderful, sensitive man,” I said.
“No, seriously, why are you being so good to me?”
“Call Susie Hanover and make sure your hubby’s not in town,” Dave answered, “because if he’s not, you’re going out!”“I am?”
“Indeed you are. Remember that Sparky  (Ruby) fellow who walked around my place on his hands?”
“How could I forget?”
“He’s going to foot the bill for all of us, including you, me, Lee, and the Lewises over at The 500 Club. But we have to be there by 7:00.”
 (..)

Lee gave me the pie slices to carry in my  semi-bottomless  purse.  Anna (Lewis)  got  off fifteen  minutes  early  and  went  to  freshen up.  As  soon  as  David (Ferrie)  arrived,  away  we went to 441 Bourbon Street. The 500 Club! I  couldn’t  wait  to  see  it.  We  arrived  at seven o’clock as instructed. Sparky (Ruby) came to our  table,  giving  us  special  attention  and chatting. He sat with us until Carlos Marcello arrived surrounded by several large  companions.  Sparky (Ruby)  went  over  to  greet  them.  Then,  a  tall  silverhaired gentleman entered with another man and a woman. They sat down with the Marcello group, but were hard to see because of the way the tables were lined up. “The one who just came in, that’s Clay Shaw, the managing director of the  Trade  Mart,”  Lee  whispered.  “He’s  the  one  building  the  new  trade center and can get things set up in Caracas. We can trust him.”
“Do you know anybody else over there?” I asked. 
“Yes. That’s a railroad guy,” Lee said. “And that’s a railroad guy, too. Over there, next to Shaw, is a guy from Terry Smith Stevedoring. I think that’s his wife with him. And next to him, that’s Hugh Ward. He’s a pilot, and Banister’s partner. Dave and I have worked with him. Next to him, I don’t  know.  I  think  he’s  a  bodyguard.  The  other  guys  are  Marcello’s brothers, Sammy and Pete.”
“Why are they meeting here, at a night club?” I asked.
“I suppose, because Marcello wants it this way.”
“But why are we here?”
“Because,  sometime  tonight,  they’ll  get  around  to  talking  about  the Venezuelan matter.”
As we waited for dinner to begin, I took a sheet of note paper from my purse,  full  of  notes  on  one  side  from  a  Dave  Ferrie  lecture,  to  jot  down some of Lee’s remarks about married life in Russia. I also sketched a small
black horse and, a little later, impressed by some dancing girls that came out to perform, I began to draw one of them. That’s when Sparky (Ruby) noticed I was sketching  something  and  came  over  to  investigate.  After  looking  at  my sketch, he returned with a poster and turned it over with the blank side up.
“Can you draw me a black stallion?” he asked. Impressed by Lee’s story of the famous horse Black Gold’s remarkable history, I began to draw at once. As I worked on it, the waiters would stop by to look. Sparky checked
on my progress at one point, then sent the waiter to bring the drawing over to his table when I was finished. He showed it to Marcello, apparently to prove  that  I  had  not  sketched  the  people  attending  his  private  meeting. Soon, I was asked to draw a cat, then a dog, which kept me busy through most of the meal. Sparky had each drawing shown to Marcello when it was completed. Meanwhile, the place filled with people and smoke. Lee, David Lewis  and  I  had  Dr.  Peppers  while  everybody  else  was  drinking  alcohol. 
The music got louder as the plates of food came and went. Marcello also made a point of smiling at Anna Lewis several times during our meal. Sparky (Ruby) finally signaled Lee to go over to Marcello’s table. I saw him sit down next to Clay Shaw. I could not hear the conversation, but Lee later told me they discussed how to handle the Venezuelan arms shipment (of arms), which would soon be on its way.  (...)
We said goodnight to David and Anna. When we stepped outside, we were  escorted  to  a  Cadillac  and  driven  home  in  style.  It  was  about  ten o’clock when we reached my apartment...

 

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

7 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Paul, I sure like your digging up details and suggesting possibilities. My main problem with the Buddy Turman idea for "Nick" is Buddy Turman was not named Nick. You point out that he had a brother Nicky or Nickie, and a phone number for the brother, written as "Nick Turman", was found on a paper of Jack Ruby. So there is a local "Nick" in Dallas known to Ruby, however nothing is known of the brother Nicky beyond he had a famous boxer brother (who worked for Ruby at the Vegas Club). Two other difficulties: Estes said his "Nick" drove a maroon Cadillac with Louisiana plates, also that his "Nick" spoke with what he called either a New Orleans or a Boston accent. Since the Turman brothers were all native Texans would the New Orleans or Boston accent fit?

There is a source on this that could be checked: I see that a still third brother of this family, Joe Garner Turman, was an author of several books including one about his famous boxer brother, Buddy: The Life of Texas Boxing Legend Buddy Turman, and another book which is his own memoirs (Memoirs: A Rusty Old Halo). I wonder if either of those books have anything interesting about Nicky or about Ruby or the Carousel Club. 

I continue to think that one of the Nicks associated with Marcello/mob circles in New Orleans is a best guess to look. And Jada arrived from New Orleans to the Carousel Club along in there although her arrival on July 17 is two or three weeks earlier than when Estes puts his "Nick" and Connally et al meeting in Ruby's office which Estes has approximately the first week in August or so. 

It is hard to imagine Jada and "Nick" would not have known each other, if both were from New Orleans and both associated with Ruby at the Carousel Club in such close proximity in time.

There have always been allegations of Ruby and Marcello contacts via Marcello surrogates but also allegations of directly. "Nick" as one such surrogate contact would agree well with the details given by Estes. 

Joe Bauer, interesting on suggesting that Seafoam Green color might be a woman's choice of car color rather than a man's. I know there is current research on gender and car color preferences but I looked but could not find any data from the 1960s, was just curious to check that. The one thing I don't think any data is needed to confirm though is that few men will buy a pink car like Jada's in any decade!  

Greg,

Yeah, I thought about the maroon Cadillac with Louisiana plates too. Of course, we don't know for sure if that car really belonged to "Nick", merely that Estes believed so. But as I pointed out earlier, Estes believed that a new Cadillac Coupe de Ville belonged to Jack Ruby, when in fact it did not. That car was almost certainly Ralph Paul's 1962 Cadillac Coupe de Ville.

So, could Estes be mistaken about the ownership of the maroon Cadillac? Sure.

Was he mistaken? I don't know. 

As far as the accent thing goes, Noonday, Texas is a little over 100 miles from Shreveport, Louisiana. Is there a regional dialect in the eastern part of Texas that may be somewhat phonetically similar to a Louisiana accent?

I don't have any idea, but it seems possible.

In any case, the remarkable physical similarity between Estes' "Nick" and Buddy Turman is highly provocative. The fact that Buddy Turman also had a brother who went by the same name as the person whose phone number Jack Ruby carried around on his person is also highly interesting. Do brothers often bear a close physical resemblance to each other?

Of course.

The possible Jada connection to a possible "Nick" from New Orleans is worth investigating, but such a connection remains highly theoretical. 

Meanwhile, we now know of someone named "Nick" (Turman) so important to Jack Ruby that he carried this man's phone number around with him on his person!'

And we also now know about a man who seems to be a perfect physical and employment match for Estes' "Nick".

Greg, we both agree that more investigation is needed in both New Orleans and Texas. If you can figure out a way to get ahold of Joe Garner Turman, please let me know. Apparently, he is 89 years old, but he just might be able to help us here. 

[Greg Doudna]

Paul, I agree the Louisiana plates on the car driven by "Nick" could be inconclusive, but the accent detail as from either New Orleans or Boston supports a New Orleans origin for "Nick" consistent with those Louisiana plates.

A check of US dialect maps (e.g. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/597712181777277236/) shows you are right that east Texas is the same as Louisiana dialect--except for New Orleans which is distinctive from the rest of Louisiana/east Texas. You can see on most of the dialect maps the area of New Orleans has a marked dialect of its own.

I see a lot written on New Orleans' distinctive dialect and the history and reasons for that. Check this article: "How New Orleans got its accent", https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2005/09/how-new-orleans-got-its-accent.html.

"If you’ve been listening to coverage of Katrina’s devastation on the radio, you’ve no doubt heard the distinctive New Orleans accents of victims, officials, and rescue workers alike. Some of them speak with a familiar, Southern drawl; others sound almost like they’re from Brooklyn. Why do people in New Orleans talk that way? ..."

So the reference by Estes to a "New Orleans" (not Louisiana but "New Orleans") accent, and that he somehow thought it sounded like someone who could be from "Boston", is not imaginary but has a basis in reality. He pointed out the accent of "Nick", unlike any of his other characters, because it was memorable or stood out to him, differing from how most people in Dallas were talking. 

Meanwhile, here are Joe Turman's books including the one about his boxer brother Buddy: https://www.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3AJOE+GARNER+TURMAN. 

[Leslie Sharp]

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/docid-32267342.pdf

Excerpt HSCA Record Number 180-10118-10067, Record Series Briefing Books, 01/11/1978

 

 

 

. . . 3. Nature and Relationship with Organized Crime  Individuals Who Had Substantial Investments in Cuba

          a. Meyer Lansky

          b. Lewis McWillie

          c. Mike and William McLaney

          d. Norman Rothman

          e. Santo Trafficante 

               - La Stella meeting

               - Doctor in New Orleans

          f. Frank Sturgis

          g. Charles Tourin . . . 

 

C. Marcello's knowledge of or participation in Anti-Castro groups based in New Orleans.                                                                                                    

     1.  Training Camps at Lake Ponchartrain

          a.  7 Crowns Ranch (owned by Nick Popich in 1963, subsequently by Sam Marcello)

          b. Supplying arms

               —Munitions raid on Bill McClaney's property - Sam Benton arrested
          c. Supplying funds

               —G. Wray Gill allegedly transferred funds to Cuban groups.

 

     2. Association with groups based in New Orleans

          a. Cuban Revolutionary Democratic Fund (FRD)

               1) Arcacha Smith - (head of FRD, associate of David Ferrie

               2) William Dalzell

               3) Proposed trade: Cuban citizenship and gambling concession for $200,000

          b. Cuban Revolutionary Council (CRC)

               1) Manuel Gil (head - arranged Oswald - Carlos Bringer debate

          c. Information Council of the Americas (INCA)

               1) Ed Butler (head, participated in Oswald-Bringuier debate) [Note: Butler and Bill Dalzell joined forces briefly in Free Voice of Latin America]

               2) Seymour Weiss (charter member, Director of Standard Fruit

               3) William I. Monaghan (Oswald associate, Standard Fruit)



The names McWillie, Trafficante, Ruby, Oswald, Dalzell appear in the 1963 datebook maintained by Pierre Lafitte:    


 

 

               

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Leslie Sharp]

Nick Popich
Excerpt from Jonathan Marshall's Dark Quadrant (courtesy William Kelly):

    The [Senate Rules] committee was unaware of what the FBI knew about [Bobby] Baker’s New Orleans associates. In February 1963, under intense pressure from the Attorney General, Hoover directed his field office there to aggressively develop new informants and initiate electronic surveillance of suspected underworld members. Had Hoover been authorized to share information, the Rules Committee would have learned that Louisiana mob boss Carlos Marcello was reputedly a hidden partner in Popich’s Vieux Carré restaurant on Bourbon St. in New Orleans. (Testifying before Congress in executive session years later, Marcello confirmed that he and Popich had been close friends since childhood, and did business together.) It would have learned that Popich was involved with a 1961 shipment of 2,000 machine guns and a number of M-1 rifles to a “big wheel” allied with a group of disaffected Honduran military officers. It would have learned that Popich received at least two calls in 1964 from Charles “the Blade” Tourine, a senior Lansky associate and former Havana casino operator living in Miami Beach.

   The FBI may not have known at the time an even more explosive bit of information about Nick Popich: he owned land near Lake Pontchartrain on which militant anti-Castro exiles were training in 1963 to undertake illegal raids into Cuba. Their activities violated the Neutrality Act and the Kennedy administration’s firm policy of preventing such raids from U.S. soil in the wake of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Without naming Baker’s New Orleans contact, the guerrilla training camp became the subject of testimony before the Warren Commission in 1964, while the Rules Committee was still investigating Baker. The Commission learned that President Kennedy’s presumed assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, had attempted to infiltrate the camp in the summer of 1963 while living in New Orleans. The camp disbanded that August only after the FBI raided a nearby arms cache maintained by anti-Castro activists, seizing more than a ton of dynamite, 20 bomb casings, fuses, and fixings for napalm. The militants acquired these explosives for a planned bombing raid against oil refineries near Havana. Their stockpile was allegedly financed by dispossessed Havana casino owner and his partner, who was described years later in Senate testimony as “a dealer in counterfeit money . . . [who] has been involved in dealing with stolen securities and other securities closely associated with . . . gamblers in Miami.” Authors Warren Hinckle and William Turner observed, “the Lake Pontchartrain raid was evidence that circles existed within circles. The most violent and rabidly rightist of exile elements, feeling that JFK had betrayed them, were turning to the mob and the radical paramilitary right wing for help in a war that was to turn against the government itself.” To say the least, members of the Rules Committee apprised of such facts would have been duty bound to dig further into the background of Baker’s associates.

[Paul Jolliffe]

23 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Paul, I agree the Louisiana plates on the car driven by "Nick" could be inconclusive, but the accent detail as from either New Orleans or Boston supports a New Orleans origin for "Nick" consistent with those Louisiana plates.

A check of US dialect maps (e.g. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/597712181777277236/) shows you are right that east Texas is the same as Louisiana dialect--except for New Orleans which is distinctive from the rest of Louisiana/east Texas. You can see on most of the dialect maps the area of New Orleans has a marked dialect of its own.

I see a lot written on New Orleans' distinctive dialect and the history and reasons for that. Check this article: "How New Orleans got its accent", https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2005/09/how-new-orleans-got-its-accent.html.

"If you’ve been listening to coverage of Katrina’s devastation on the radio, you’ve no doubt heard the distinctive New Orleans accents of victims, officials, and rescue workers alike. Some of them speak with a familiar, Southern drawl; others sound almost like they’re from Brooklyn. Why do people in New Orleans talk that way? ..."

So the reference by Estes to a "New Orleans" (not Louisiana but "New Orleans") accent, and that he somehow thought it sounded like someone who could be from "Boston", is not imaginary but has a basis in reality. He pointed out the accent of "Nick", unlike any of his other characters, because it was memorable or stood out to him, differing from how most people in Dallas were talking. 

Meanwhile, here are Joe Turman's books including the one about his boxer brother Buddy: https://www.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3AJOE+GARNER+TURMAN. 

Greg,

Thanks for the dialect map. While not definitive, "Nick's" apparent New Orleans accent (according to Estes, himself a native of Tennessee and a recent transplant to Texas) calls for more investigation.

In any event, the reason you and I are even discussing this minor point 59 years later is solely the fault of the FBI: they compiled the list of Ruby's phone contacts, including those so important to him that he carried those names and numbers about with him on his person. They knew of one "Nick Turman". They interviewed "Buddy" Turman, who had a brother named "Nickie Turman."

Now, in an honest investigation, the FBI might have asked "Buddy" a few simple questions about (Ie. Why did Jack Ruby have the name of "Buddy's" brother and a phone number? Did Buddy Turman's brother have anything to do with Jack Ruby? etc.)

Maybe one of the other Turman brothers was also employed or known to Jack Ruby.

We don't know because the FBI did not ask even the simplest questions of Buddy Turman.

There is only one reasonable conclusion: the FBI didn't ask because they didn't want to know the answer. 

No one can say for certain who "Nick Turman" was and thanks to the FBI's total failure to investigate even the simplest question (Who is this guy on Ruby's list?), none of us can ever be sure.

Maybe "Nick" was some mob-connected gangster from New Orleans. Or maybe not. We do know that Estes witnessed some kind of payoff/bribe to newly elected governor John Connally (escorted by Jim Leavelle) in August of 1963 upstairs in the office of Jack Ruby's nightclub. 

Whoever "Nick" was, he was physically handling the money delivered to Connally.

 

[Michael Griffith]

On 9/15/2023 at 11:15 AM, Greg Doudna said:

And I don’t know if you saw my above, but in Estes’ story Connally would not have been seen by anyone entering or at a strip club, apart from the ones present in Ruby’s office who would be the only ones who knew he was there. It is not as if he was in public watching strippers on a stage, or walked into an entrance of such an establishment. I am assuming an unmarked door in the alley in the back went to all levels of a multistory building thus even if seen need not necessarily be seen as going to the Carousel Club at a time when it was closed. I do see one point that could weigh in favor of what you are saying though. If I were Connally, I might want to control the venue out of fear of being covertly taped or caught on camera (and then set up for blackmail). 

If the Carousel Club had a rear entrance in the back alley, that would at least mean that Connally could have entered the club with a minimal chance of being seen, which would make this part of Estes's story a bit more plausible. I still find it hard to believe that Connally would have risked holding an illicit meeting in Ruby's club, even if he could have entered via a back-alley rear door. However, given the credible nature of the rest of Estes's story, I agree that the Connally-Ruby-meeting part of his story cannot be easily dismissed.

 

[Joe Bauer]

Henry Wade himself went through the front entrance and up the stairs to pop into Ruby's club while it was open.

This according to former Carousel employee Nancy Hamilton.

Wade put on a lousy act of pretending he didn't personally know Jack Ruby during his Dallas PD building news conference late 11,22,1963 and two nights later after Ruby shot Oswald.

To the world press regards the suspect who shot Oswald the late evening of 11,24,1963:

"I believe his name is a "Jack Rubenstein?"

A reporter who observed Ruby interacting with Wade the late evening of 11,22,1963 said to Wade..."It looked like you two ( Ruby and Wade) were good friends.

To which Wade just smiled with a sheepish "hand caught in the cookie jar" guilty grin. He didn't deny the reporter's suggestion.

Come on Wade...you knew Ruby well.

[Paul Jolliffe]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Henry Wade himself went through the front entrance and up the stairs to pop into Ruby's club while it was open.

This according to former Carousel employee Nancy Hamilton.

Wade put on a lousy act of pretending he didn't personally know Jack Ruby during his Dallas PD building news conference late 11,22,1963 and two nights later after Ruby shot Oswald.

To the world press regards the suspect who shot Oswald the late evening of 11,24,1963:

"I believe his name is a "Jack Rubenstein?"

A reporter who observed Ruby interacting with Wade the late evening of 11,22,1963 said to Wade..."It looked like you two ( Ruby and Wade) were good friends.

To which Wade just smiled with a sheepish "hand caught in the cookie jar" guilty grin. He didn't deny the reporter's suggestion.

Come on Wade...you knew Ruby well.

See the video beginning at the 14:30 mark for Wade's disavowal of his acquaintance with Jack Ruby. The smirk is at the 15:52 mark:

 

[Michael Kalin]

On 9/16/2023 at 12:07 AM, Greg Doudna said:

The reference is to Mary Lawrence and the Lucas B & B Restaurant, https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10626#relPageId=397. That it was Craford with Ruby: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1136#relPageId=374.

Then there is this, a report of someone intimidating this witness:

"At 1:00 P.M., December 3, 1963, Mary Lawrence, head waitress, B & B Restaurant, Oak Lawn Avenue in Dallas, telephonically advised SA J. Doyle Williams she had received an anonymous call from a male caller about 6:00 A.M. on December 3, 1963, who stated: "If you don't want to die, you better get out of town."

"Lawrence stated she has known Jack Ruby for the past eight years and that she saw him at approximately midnight on November 22, 1963, after the President had been shot or during the early morning hours of November 23 [sic], 1963. Ruby was at the B & B Restaurant at that time and was with an individual, possibly identical with Lee Harvey Oswald." (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10489#relPageId=554)

From the dates, Mary Lawrence's first contact to the FBI was the report of the threat, following which the FBI interviewed her about her sighting of Ruby and what she thought may have been Oswald with him, which actually was Ruby and Craford.

Thanks, this is interesting, but there are complications.

FBI first.

SA Williams' report says Mary Lawrence's sighting occurred early on 11/23/63, which is absurd.

SA Clements' report says Mary Lawrence's sighting occurred early on 11/22/63, which is possible.

The addendum to Clements' report, referencing Crafard's 11/28/63 interview, says Ruby & Crafard went to B & B at 3:45AM on 11/21/63.

Not to be outdone, making matters worse, there are two DPD reports addressed to W. P. Ganaway.

According to one, dated 1/28/64, the owner, Peter Lucas, claimed that Ruby & his sister "were both forbidden to enter his restaurant." Lucas also "stated Mary Lawrence is considered to be a chronic xxxx and tends to fabricate stories in idle conversation."
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340491/m1/1/?q=mary lawrence

The other, dated 1/30/64, says the sighting occurred at 2:15AM on 11/22/23. It also mentions the threat Mary Lawrence received.
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth191044/m1/1/?q=mary lawrence

Result is another almighty muddle!

Edited September 19, 2023 by Michael Kalin
corrected year of DPD reports