Decipherment of the James Odell Estes story (Carousel Club July-Aug 1963)

[Greg Doudna]

In Sept 1977 James Odell Estes walked into the Texarkana, Arkansas FBI office, said he had information relevant to the JFK assassination, that he had not divulged earlier for fear for his life, had been told by doctors he was going to die for medical reasons in the next year or two, and wanted to disclose his story. 

He told a story of having been a musician in earlier years who had found employment in Jack Ruby's Carousel Club, Dallas, from late June to early Sept 1963. He told names of characters none of whom have been identified with the exception of Jack Ruby and Governor Connally. One of the characters he claimed to have had interaction with was Lee Harvey Oswald, who of course is known to have been in New Orleans at that time. 

I have quietly puzzled over Estes's story for nearly a year now. Until now his story has been regarded as a curiosity and received little attention.  

Estes made no attempt at publicity, nor did he even go to a newspaper, only the FBI, that was it. His claimed reason for telling his story before he shortly was to leave this life was true. He died Jan 1978, just four months later, and here is his gravestone: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/86059847/james-odell-estes.

My hunch was that underneath the named characters who seemed to defy identification might be a story if those names could be deciphered. I kept at it, and I believe I have deciphered his story by deciphering several of the names as recognizeable persons.

His story is here: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10020#relPageId=49 

The cast of characters:

• James Estes -- musician, drifter, string of low-level petty offenses crime record, nothing violent, landed in Dallas and found a job at the Carousel Club doing general cleanup and whatever he was asked to do
• Barbara Jean Kelly -- waitress at the Carousel, from West Allis, Wisconsin, lived in a trailer park in Irving, James lived with her.
• "Chuck" -- the manager at the Carousel Club who hired him, 6'4", red hair, mid-30s.
• Jack Ruby -- top person at the Carousel Club 
• "Lee" -- 5'9" or 5'10", 165-170 lbs, brown hair cut short and sort of curly, 30s. Not an employee of the Carousel Club but visited and knew Ruby. James went fishing with him twice. Sent by Ruby to do unspecified "jobs" for a couple of days involving round-trip airplane flights. 
• "Nick" -- well-dressed, flashy jewelry, "mob" type visiting from Louisiana, unspecified business with Ruby, New Orleans accent, age 30s-40s, 6'2", 200-plus lbs, big man, moustache, black hair cut short, drove maroon Cadillac with Louisiana plates.
• Governor John Connally--showed up once with another man with him, a closed-door meeting with Chuck and Nick and Ruby in Ruby's office, briefcase of cash changed hands.

 Following are my identifications.

"Barbara Jean Kelly"

This was exasperating: I tried and tried but could not identify this woman, not in West Allis, Wisconsin and not by that name in any known reference to Carousel Club employees or dancers. 

Finally I realized: I was looking for the wrong name. The waitress Estes was telling of was a waitress at the Carousel Club named Bonnie Louise Kellough. That is the correct spelling of her last name, though after the arrest of Ruby on Nov 24, 1963, her name appears on lists of Carousel Club employees spelled "Kelley", showing the confusion in spelling. 

And yet there seemed to be a couple of contradictions. In the book Jack Ruby's Girls, by Diana Hunter, there is a chapter dedicated to Bonnie, and there she is described as from Alabama with a southern accent. Also, in Estes' story he says his Barbara Kelly quit the Carousel Club and moved back to West Allis, Wisconsin, the first week of Sept 1963, whereas Bonnie Kellough was working on Nov 22, 1963. 

I think what happened is this: for whatever reason Bonnie decided it was time to move on from that relationship and only told Estes she was quitting and going back to Wisconsin. She urged him to get out of Dallas as she was going to do (unspecified bad things as reason). When he said he did not have money to quit and leave Dallas, she gave him money to buy a car to remove that impediment. She probably sold or moved out of her trailer at that time forcing the issue for him. Estes took the car she had bought for him to Nevada and never heard from "Barbara Kelly" again in his life. His itinerary compiled by the FBI shows he made a trip to West Allis in Dec 1963 trying to find her, but it was fruitless. That is because she wasn't there. She was at work in the Carousel Club in Dallas, where she was all along!

Remember the song, "fifty ways to leave your lover"? This was method #51! 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10516#relPageId=211 FBI interview of Kellough.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth191022/-- this tells what became of Bonnie. Jan 23, 1964, DPD Special Services Bureau memo. Says before the assassination she lived in a rented room. When the Carousel Club closed she had been unable to find other work and moved in with another woman in Oak Cliff. In late Dec 1963 her former landlady at the rented room took up a collection for her and Bonnie took a bus to Los Angeles. Last known whereabouts.

(continued) 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Pete Mellor]

Yet another interesting line of investigation Greg!  As per the Crafard threads.

[Joe Bauer]

The employee turnover rate in strip joints like Ruby's was laughable.

In a year's time it must have been 3 or 400 percent.

Employees there at the time of the JFKA ... Bill DeMarr, Wally Weston, Curtis Crafard, Jada, Little Lynn, etc. etc. ... all just there for weeks or a couple of months.

Strippers, stage acts, musicians, servers, clean up men, managers.

Seems like if you wanted to work there you just had to stick out a 1 to 2 month wait and something would always open up.

Nancy Hamilton only worked there for 2 to 3 months.

I could easily see Rose Cherami ( Melba Mercades ) getting a quick, short term job there as she claimed.

Like the musician fellow mentioned in GD original post (James Odell Estes?) I believe it is numerically certain that of the hundreds of former short term former employees who worked for Jack Ruby at the Carousel and the Vegas club throughout the years...that many more of them besides this guy had some observations to share about Ruby and characters ( high station and low and police officers and maybe some Mafia types as well ) that visited his club or Ruby personally there, that would be of high suspicion nefarious interest to investigators.

Yet, also like Estes...they would be unwilling to come forward...forever.

Why? Why open themselves up to all the bad things that happened to others who did come forward?

They had themselves and their families to worry about.

It is a certainty that many, many people who ever met and/or interacted with the main JFKA involved characters at one time or another never shared what they knew about them.

In total, now THAT would be a fascinating story to know.

 

 

[Greg Doudna]

Thanks Pete, and well put Joe.

I gave the wrong link on the James Odell Estes story in my opening (links are fixed now); the correct link for the story is: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10020#relPageId=49.

Estes was a drifter and his petty offenses crime record basically show the criminalization of being poor, dealing mostly with inability to pay his bills. He had health issues that did not help matters. Nothing in his story comes through that he was a nasty or bad person. Apart from struggles over money at the low end of the economic ladder, survival and health issues (along with some millions of others in America), from the little from his story he comes across as decent-hearted who meant no harm to anyone, who by accident got caught up in Dallas, during his time working as a low-level flunky at the Carousel Club a few months before the assassination, in maybe seeing a little too much that he was not supposed to see.

Estes tells of serving beverages to persons in two strange meetings held in Ruby's office involving Ruby, "Nick" the mob-type from Louisiana (my word "mob", not in the Estes mss.), "Chuck", "Lee", and in the second meeting an arrival of Governor John Connally with his party (of one other), and how Estes, serving drinks in this second meeting, saw a briefcase of cash in the room which looked like it was being conveyed to Connally.

In his story, Estes in retrospect came to believe his "Lee" character was Oswald in the news for assassinating JFK. Obviously he was mistaken on that later identification of one of his characters but that does not mean it was not someone. 

I was talking to a friend locally last night--non-JFK buff--about Estes' story and how Bonnie told him to get out of town the first week of Sept and gave him money for a car to do so ... and the strange detail told by Estes that after the meeting which included Connally in Ruby's office, Estes said the wine bottles and all the glasses used by everyone in that meeting were gathered up and then broken. Not washed. Smashed and broken and disposed of. Estes tells of this strange breaking of all glassware used by persons after meetings, twice, both meetings involving "Nick" the mob-type from Louisiana, the second one the Connally meeting. Estes does not say why all the glassware was broken afterward and disposed of, just that was what was done on those two occasions. (Maybe wanting no accidental fingerprints to survive?) My friend suggested in a situation like that, Estes, the low-level help who if it was thought he had seen too much, nobody would miss him if he was whacked, he was expendable, indeed could have been at risk of his life. Bonnie, one working-class person to another, may have seen he was a good-hearted man and saved his life by getting him out of town and giving her own money so he could get a car to do so.

Maybe she knew something was at risk of happening to him, maybe she overheard something, who knows, but she got him out of town and Estes said he feared thereafter, kept moving, fearful. It may be if Bonnie had not gotten him that car and gotten him out of town Estes would have ended up dead and forgotten, nobody would know or care, but that did not happen because he disappeared (at Bonnie's urging and help). In this light it might not simply, or maybe at all, have been a ploy by Bonnie to get rid of a "sticky" man out of a relationship. Estes never refers to problems or fights with Bonnie. He speaks well of her, was grateful for her kindness regarding the car.

[Joe Bauer]

On 4/11/2023 at 8:27 AM, Greg Doudna said:

Thanks Pete, and well put Joe.

I gave the wrong link on the James Odell Estes story in my opening (links are fixed now); the correct link for the story is: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10020#relPageId=49.

Estes was a drifter and his petty offenses crime record basically show the criminalization of being poor, dealing mostly with inability to pay his bills. He had health issues that did not help matters. Nothing in his story comes through that he was a nasty or bad person. Apart from struggles over money at the low end of the economic ladder, survival and health issues (along with some millions of others in America), from the little from his story he comes across as decent-hearted who meant no harm to anyone, who by accident got caught up in Dallas, during his time working as a low-level flunky at the Carousel Club a few months before the assassination, in maybe seeing a little too much that he was not supposed to see.

Estes tells of serving beverages to persons in two strange meetings held in Ruby's office involving Ruby, "Nick" the mob-type from Louisiana (my word "mob", not in the Estes mss.), "Chuck", "Lee", and in the second meeting an arrival of Governor John Connally with his party (of one other), and how Estes, serving drinks in this second meeting, saw a briefcase of cash in the room which looked like it was being conveyed to Connally.

In his story, Estes in retrospect came to believe his "Lee" character was Oswald in the news for assassinating JFK. Obviously he was mistaken on that later identification of one of his characters but that does not mean it was not someone. 

I was talking to a friend locally last night--non-JFK buff--about Estes' story and how Bonnie told him to get out of town the first week of Sept and gave him money for a car to do so ... and the strange detail told by Estes that after the meeting which included Connally in Ruby's office, Estes said the wine bottles and all the glasses used by everyone in that meeting were gathered up and then broken. Not washed. Smashed and broken and disposed of. Estes tells of this strange breaking of all glassware used by persons after meetings, twice, both meetings involving "Nick" the mob-type from Louisiana, the second one the Connally meeting. Estes does not say why all the glassware was broken afterward and disposed of, just that was what was done on those two occasions. (Maybe wanting no accidental fingerprints to survive?) My friend suggested in a situation like that, Estes, the low-level help who if it was thought he had seen too much, nobody would miss him if he was whacked, he was expendable, indeed could have been at risk of his life. Bonnie, one working-class person to another, may have seen he was a good-hearted man and saved his life by getting him out of town and giving her own money so he could get a car to do so.

Maybe she knew something was at risk of happening to him, maybe she overheard something, who knows, but she got him out of town and Estes said he feared thereafter, kept moving, fearful. It may be if Bonnie had not gotten him that car and gotten him out of town Estes would have ended up dead and forgotten, nobody would know or care, but that did not happen because he disappeared (at Bonnie's urging and help). In this light it might not simply, or maybe at all, have been a ploy by Bonnie to get rid of a "sticky" man out of a relationship. Estes never refers to problems or fights with Bonnie. He speaks well of her, was grateful for her kindness regarding the car.

It is a very plausible story.

It's repeated just months later when drifter Curtis Crafard fills Estes former position for two months right up to the day of the JFKA.

Crafard then does exactly what Estes says he did. Got the hell out of Dodge...like right then and there!  No notice to his boss Ruby. Hardly any clothes. One bag. $7 in his pocket.

Hits the road hitchhiking to get so far away from Dallas ( mostly at night and in freezing early Winter Mid-West weather!) and settles in right up to the Canadian border?

That was the desperate actions of a man who definitely "knew too much" and was fearing for his life.

The uncanny similarities between Estes and Crafard regards their character, positions and desperate spur of the moment run away actions begs valid curiosity.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Greg Doudna]

More on Bonnie Kellough here, the chapter in the Diana Hunter book, Jack Ruby's Girls: https://archive.org/details/jackrubysgirls00hunt/page/105/mode/2up. This book, rare and I do not see used copies listed for purchase anywhere under $150, can be read for free at that link. It requires signing up for a login account there, however it costs nothing and does not expire, and there is no downside to it (not even being subjected to advertising and popups). 

Joe you are right to note those parallels with Curtis Craford's later job which Craford had from ca. Oct 15 until he left Nov 23. The later Craford's was similar job description (except for the live-in and phone answering part) as James Estes' job earlier in July and August of the same year in his story, as cleanup man and miscellaneous duties as requested.

But from Estes there is insight on how that worked: Estes tells that he was paid in cash for his work cleaning the place, no taxes taken out. In other words, it was off the books. Compare Craford, under oath in Warren Commission testimony, claiming he was paid only in smokes and was able to take out $5 at a time as needed from the cash register with Ruby's permission whenever he needed to eat, but otherwise (so Craford claimed) he was not paid any wages or salary, just allowed to sleep there. And claiming he left Dallas hitchhiking with only $7 in his pocket. Its all baloney. Craford was only saying that to not be asked questions about unreported income and sources of cash. Craford knew better than to put on the record cash he'd received that had not been reported. 

[Chuck Schwartz]

More on Crafard from Sparticus. " 

Is there any doubt that the Warren Commission deliberately set out not to tell the American people the truth? There is a brief glimpse, an illustration of the level at which that deceit was carried out, in an incident that occurred during the Warren Commission's investigation. Commission chairman Earl Warren himself, with then Representative Gerald Ford at his side, was interviewing a barman, Curtis LaVerne Crafard. Crafard had worked at Jack Ruby's Carousel Club before he was seized by FBI men as he was hightailing it out of town the day after the assassination, having told someone, "They are not going to pin this on me!"

In the interview, Warren asks Craford what he did before he was a bartender.

"I was a Master sniper in the Marine Corps," Craford answered.*

The next question that Warren immediately asked was: "What kind of entertainment did they have at the club?" "

 

[Joe Bauer]

15 minutes ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

More on Crafard from Sparticus. " 

Is there any doubt that the Warren Commission deliberately set out not to tell the American people the truth? There is a brief glimpse, an illustration of the level at which that deceit was carried out, in an incident that occurred during the Warren Commission's investigation. Commission chairman Earl Warren himself, with then Representative Gerald Ford at his side, was interviewing a barman, Curtis LaVerne Crafard. Crafard had worked at Jack Ruby's Carousel Club before he was seized by FBI men as he was hightailing it out of town the day after the assassination, having told someone, "They are not going to pin this on me!"

In the interview, Warren asks Craford what he did before he was a bartender.

"I was a Master sniper in the Marine Corps," Craford answered.*

The next question that Warren immediately asked was: "What kind of entertainment did they have at the club?" "

 

Mind boggling!

[Greg Doudna]

3 hours ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

More on Crafard from Sparticus. " 

Is there any doubt that the Warren Commission deliberately set out not to tell the American people the truth? There is a brief glimpse, an illustration of the level at which that deceit was carried out, in an incident that occurred during the Warren Commission's investigation. Commission chairman Earl Warren himself, with then Representative Gerald Ford at his side, was interviewing a barman, Curtis LaVerne Crafard. Crafard had worked at Jack Ruby's Carousel Club before he was seized by FBI men as he was hightailing it out of town the day after the assassination, having told someone, "They are not going to pin this on me!"

In the interview, Warren asks Craford what he did before he was a bartender.

"I was a Master sniper in the Marine Corps," Craford answered.*

The next question that Warren immediately asked was: "What kind of entertainment did they have at the club?" "

This is a mistake. This is not in the Warren Commission exhibits. It comes from a "spoof" satire by comedian Mort Sahl in which he would go on stage pretending to read from the Warren Commission, but he wasn't really reading verbatim, he rewrote it to be funnier. Then Gaeton Fonzi of HSCA thought it was a real quote from Craford's testimony and quoted it in a serious speech as if it was, a mistake. Peter Whitmey was the one who noticed this and wrote the letters, etc. getting the error called to attention. 

It would be like one of the political satire sites with a realistic-sounding news article (which is a spoof) being misunderstood as if it is real and quoted. That is what this is. Whitmey explains at https://www.jfk-assassination.net/creatingapatsy.htm (about 60% in to the article is the section on this). 

Craford served in the Army, not the Marine Corps.

[Greg Doudna]

 Identity of James Odell Estes' "Lee": Curtis Craford?

Estes thought in retrospect one of the characters he described during the time he was employed at the Carousel Club in the summer of 1963 was Lee Harvey Oswald, which of course was not correct. But I believed Estes was saying what he believed was true and was not wilfully lying in his end-of-life unburdening of his story to the FBI without seeking fame or money.

That Estes was mistaken in the identity of the man he remembered as "Lee" does not mean "Lee" did not exist. Since Estes' "Lee" was not Oswald, who was he? A question of identification. 

In studying this, I began to consider that "Lee" was Curtis Craford. The primary reason for that identification is the descriptions are similar and "Lee" told by Estes during the summer of 1963 sounds so much like the character overheard by attorney Carroll Jarnagin on Fri Oct 4 talking to Ruby in the next table at the Carousel Club discussing the carrying out of a mob hit on Texas Governor John Connally. 

After the assassination Jarnagin tried to remember and write down all he could remember of that evening weeks earlier, perhaps fogged in memory from having consumed alcohol at the time, and wrote J. Edgar Hoover about it. But since Jarnagin identified the man he had overheard as Oswald and hopelessly mixed up Oswald in his story--and failed a polygraph--and since it could not be Oswald (whose whereabouts on Fri night Oct 4 in Irving with his wife Marina and their child at Ruth Paine's house is established)—Jarnagin's story was dismissed. But if the "Oswald details" are subtracted from Jarnagin's story and the "non-Oswald" details examined, they sound like the same character "Lee" of Estes, and both sound close enough to Craford to suggest they both were Craford.  

On the connection between Estes' "Lee" and Jarnagin's "H.L. Lee" (as Jarnagin remembered hearing the name): they both came in to the Carousel Club alone; both were beer drinkers; were of similar physical description; both were mistakenly identified by the respective Estes and Jarnagin with Oswald after seeing Oswald on TV (and Craford was a known subject of mistaken Oswald identifications).

And finally, Jarnagin says he heard Ruby greet his "H.L. Lee" by expressing recognition, Ruby saying he had not seen him around for a couple of weeks, asking where he had been. That is an allusion to prior acquaintanceship, consistent with Estes' "Lee" being this same person, in both cases perhaps Craford. 

Estes meets "Lee"

From his account Estes started work full-time at the Carousel Club doing cleanup, paid in cash, about the last week of June 1963. Estes says it was in the first or second week of July that the person he remembers as "Lee" came into the Carousel Club.

I have to interject here that what follows conflicts with Craford's account of his whereabouts in the summer of 1963 in his Warren Commission testimony. But that same Warren Commission testimony of Craford has Craford giving a timeline of his job history and whereabouts in 1961 that included no presence in California whatever in 1961, until Warren Commission staff counsels (who apparently had done a little private detective background research on Craford prior to his testimony) asked Craford about months of employment involving a series of jobs in California in 1961. Without missing a beat Craford smoothly agreed he had those jobs in those months in California in 1961 and described them, after he had just got through telling an entire timeline for 1961 with no gaps and no presence in California.

If Craford had not been called on it, his original version of his 1961 timeline as told under oath to the Warren Commission, would have skipped his time and presence and employment in California entirely.

That was the period Craford later told Peter Whitmey that he became involved with a mobster in the Bay area and worked as a hitman. (Craford left out that aspect of his employment history in California in his WC testimony.)

The reason I mention this is I see 1961 and California as a possible parallel to Craford's timeline for the summer of 1963 to the WC which might similarly leave out some things including presences in Dallas and the nature and length of his relationship with Ruby and the Carousel Club before the fall of 1963. 

The name "Lee"

We have seen that Estes misremembers names, such as the Carousel Club waitress with whom he lived and who may have saved his life, true name Bonnie Louise Kellough, remembered by Estes as "Barbara Jean Kelly".

Estes tells of his first meeting with the man he remembers as named "Lee", wk #1 or #2 of July, in which a man came in to the Carousel Club one day by himself when Estes was working and serving, and ordered a beer.

About a week later, this would be wk #2 or #3 of July, the man came in a second time and this time went to Ruby's office and was there for about an hour. Unknown to Estes what that was about.

About a week after that, this would be wk #3 or #4 of July, the man came in again, alone as before and ordered a beer, and this time invited Estes to sit down and get acquainted. They exchanged nicknames. Estes told the man he went by "Whitey" (nickname). Estes--writing years later from memory--says the man gave his comparable nickname as "Lee" which I think may have been "Larry" misremembered by Estes as "Lee" comparable to Estes misremembering Bonnie Kellough as "Barbara" Kelly.

As in all of his characters, Estes gives a physical description: he said "Lee" was 5'9" or 5'10", 165-170 lbs, medium build (not skinny), brown hair cut short "and it was sort of curly". He “walked real straight" (military background?), in his 30s.

"Lee" told Estes he liked to bowl and he liked to fish.

About a week later, which would be about wk #4 of July or wk #1 of August, "Lee" came in again and went to Ruby's office, where also were Ruby and Estes' boss "Chuck". This time "Lee" was carrying a black briefcase. Chuck gave Estes the keys to a white Cadillac and had Estes drive "Lee" to the airport. On the way "Lee" told Estes he was taking care of an "errand" for Ruby and hoped to make enough money on the deal to be able to go live in Switzerland. The nature of the "errand" or "deal" was unknown to Estes.

A Marcello payoff to Connally?

About 5 days or so later Estes saw "Lee" again with a man named "Nick" (well-dressed mobster type driving a maroon Cadillac with Louisiana plates). "Lee" and Nick went to Ruby's office. A two hour meeting, after which Estes says the bartender named "Mike" literally broke all the glasswear used in that meeting--the wine bottles and the glasses used--and disposed of it. (To avoid risk of fingerprints? Estes does not say.)

The next day, mid-PM, Estes said he saw Lee, Nick, and Chuck come in the back door of the Carousel Club and go to Ruby's office. 15 minutes later Chuck went down and met two men coming in the back door. One, says Estes, was Governor Connally. Connally the governor of Texas. 

The second man with Connally, according to Estes, was a man Estes had seen in the Club "a number of times" and Estes gives a physical description but the detail of interest is according to Estes this may have been a Dallas police officer (perhaps accompanying Connally for security on this visit? or maybe he was a contact for an introduction?).

Estes, while serving beverages in Ruby's office to these men, saw a black briefcase open, filled with money, $100 bills, the same type of briefcase that he earlier had seen "Lee" carry with him to the airport.

The men stayed about 45 minutes or an hour after Estes served their drinks and cigarettes and left the room.

Chuck (Estes's boss) then took Connally and the man with him out the back door the way they had come in. "Lee" took a cab away. Estes said this occurred about wk #1 or #2 of August. Estes says he never saw the black briefcase again.

Comment: on its face this looks like a story of a bribe being paid to Connally, with "Nick" the well-dressed mobster type from Louisiana maybe from some mob connection in New Orleans (source of the money?). Was Connally corrupt (that is, is it plausible he would take a briefcase of cash)? I can find nothing on the record concerning Connally of that nature directly, but there is this: John Curington, aide and fixer for H.L. Hunt, whom I know, has told me that Connally was corrupt, and that H.L. Hunt conveyed money to Connally. The way Curington said this was done was Connally was a cattleman, and H.L. Hunt would send Curington to cattle auctions. Hunt's people would give the winning high bid for some prize steer paid to the seller and simply never take delivery. The large amount of money in that way would be conveyed legally with all paperwork in order and aboveboard, except no one would know that delivery was never taken. Curington told me this was done with a cattle auction and Connally. Of course this is all hearsay a half century later. But I'm just reporting what Curington, who was there, now in his 90s, told me happened.  

Had Estes seen too much?

Estes says about a week after that, which would be maybe wk #2 or #3 of August--Estes estimates about the middle of August--"Lee" invited Estes to go fishing on a weekend, at a cabin on Possum Kingdom Lake near Mineral Wells, Texas. "Lee" invited Estes on a Friday and they went on a Sunday. "Lee" picked him up in Irving (at the trailer park where Estes was living with Bonnie Kellough) driving a green 1961 Chevrolet Impala, a car Estes never saw again. "Lee" said the cabin belonged to a friend of his.

According to Estes, "Lee" had with him a 30.30 Winchester rifle, the same as Estes also had which he also brought.

Estes added that every other time he had seen "Lee", "Lee" was carrying "a Smith and Wesson 38 calibre pistol, six shooter ... He carried this on his left side with a waist holster." 

They drank beer at the lake and "Lee" told him of his travels when "Lee" was in the military. (Craford had been in the Army in Germany but claimed to Peter Whitmey he had also been in southeast Asia off the books, for military purposes.) According to Estes, "Lee" said he had been in Japan, Korea, Mexico, all over the U.S., had a friend in Monterrey, Mexico (a parts dealer for used cars), had been in Guam and Hawaii.

Estes said "Lee" talked of trouble with his wife. (That agrees with Craford, who was married but estranged from his wife who lived in Dallas.) 

A week later Estes says "Lee" invited him again to go to the same cabin at the lake. This time they drove Bonnie Kellough's car ("Barbara Kelly" as Estes calls her) which she let Estes drive for that occasion. (Note "Lee" is able to drive but does not own a car, also agrees with Craford.) Estes says "Lee" never told him where he lived or his address. 

This time, Estes says "Lee" was not carrying a rifle but was carrying his .38 pistol. At the return of the trip Estes let "Lee" off at the Carousel Club.

After receiving urgent advice from Bonnie Kellough about the last week of August that he should leave Dallas, without telling Estes why, and Bonnie giving him money to buy a car to be able to do so, Estes says he left Dallas either the 3rd or 4th of September. He says his last day of work at the Carousel Club was Sept. 2. If there had been any foul play planned for Estes, he disappeared and survived, living a life of fear and moving for the remainder of his life, of the people he had become inadvertently mixed up with in the summer of 1963.

On the Estes story of the bribe to Connally set early Aug 1963, compare Jarnagin's story set in early Oct 1963 in which Ruby is now telling "H.L. Lee" that mob contacts of Ruby are now wanting to have Governor Connally killed, because Connally was not cooperating with them (mob) "on paroles". (Note Connally featuring in both stories.)

What is striking is Estes and Jarnagin had no knowledge of each other or the other's story, yet their stories have similarities the way they do. By a further step in analysis an identification may be suggested of the respective figures Estes and Jarnagin described: Craford and Ruby. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Greg Doudna]

And on identifications of the other characters James Estes describes, uncertain, I welcome better suggestions if any, but I propose:

(1) For "Nick" the mob-type from Louisiana, who James Estes says he saw with the briefcase of $100 bills to Connally in Ruby's office ca. early August 1963 ... maybe Nick Karno, New Orleans, "the owner of the Court of Two Sisters ... close associate of Carlos Marcello" (https://twitter.com/FilesJFK/status/1649070480303816713/photo/1 ).

Connected to Ruby with one degree of separation:

A gambler and strip club operator, [Frank Caracci] was also a capo in the NOLA family under Marcello. Owner of The 500 Club, and French Opera House, on Bourbon Street, as well as a popular late night bar in The Quarter called The Dungeon. Closely associated with NOLA mobster Nick Karno, who operated the Famous Door club, also on Bourbon St. Shortly before the assassination of JFK, Jack Ruby met with Caracci on the pretext of using one of his dancers in his Dallas Carousel Club. (https://www.nationalcrimesyndicate.com/where-new-orleans-buries-its-dead-mobsters/ )

Estes' description of "Nick": white male, dark complexion, early 30s or 40s, 6'2", 200-plus pounds weight, big frame. Real black hair cut short. Mustache. Had an accent like New Orleans or Boston. Drove a late-model maroon Cadillac, 1962 or 1963, Louisiana license plates. Ruby called him "Nick". Had a ring on his right hand with diamonds, also a watch on his right arm.

Here is a photo of Nick Karno. Looks like a big guy, has a mustache. https://www.nationalcrimesyndicate.com/where-new-orleans-buries-its-dead-mobsters-nola-cemeteries/

Here is his grave: 1909-1994 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/149495851/nick-s-karno. 

However, there probably were any number of big guys named Nick who wore flashy jewelry and clothes and were shady from Louisiana... anyway that's a guess.

(2) On "Chuck", who seems to have managed the Carousel Club under Ruby and who hired and paid Estes--this was a tough one as I could find no "Chuck" or Charles of that description in the Carousel Club--who could that be?

My only guess is maybe Charles Isaacs of Dallas, the mysterious figure who featured in the Winnipeg Airport incident story. According to the witness who heard the conversation, Charles Isaacs was mentioned in the context of the JFK assassination. His wife did costume designing for some of Ruby's dancers. Charles Isaacs' name was in Ruby's notebook/phone book, the one the WC took Craford through item by item.

Peter Whitmey did the most research on Charles Isaacs, who never did receive much investigation. Whitmey suspected Isaacs could be more involved with Ruby than he was willing to admit. The major objection to Estes' "Chuck" being Charles Isaacs is Isaacs was working at American Airlines at Love Field, and nothing else corroborates him working in the Carousel Club in 1963. The positive argument for it being him is I think "Chuck" was somebody real because I think Estes was there and this was a real memory of Estes despite all of the drawbacks of being years later and imperfect, and there is no other Chuck or Charles connected to Ruby, especially as de facto manager of the Club ca. mid-1963, that I can find who it could be. Here is one of Whitmey's last articles on Charles Isaacs: https://www.jfk-assassination.net/winnipeg.htm.

Estes gave a physical description of "Chuck", but unfortunately I cannot find any photo or physical description of Charles Isaacs to compare. If anyone can think of a better candidate for the identity of Estes' "Chuck" figure I would like to know. 

[Joe Bauer]

9 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

And on identifications of the other characters James Estes describes, uncertain, I welcome better suggestions if any, but I propose:

(1) For "Nick" the mob-type from Louisiana, who James Estes says he saw with the briefcase of $100 bills to Connally in Ruby's office ca. early August 1963 ... maybe Nick Karno, New Orleans, "the owner of the Court of Two Sisters ... close associate of Carlos Marcello" (https://twitter.com/FilesJFK/status/1649070480303816713/photo/1 ).

Connected to Ruby with one degree of separation:

A gambler and strip club operator, [Frank Caracci] was also a capo in the NOLA family under Marcello. Owner of The 500 Club, and French Opera House, on Bourbon Street, as well as a popular late night bar in The Quarter called The Dungeon. Closely associated with NOLA mobster Nick Karno, who operated the Famous Door club, also on Bourbon St. Shortly before the assassination of JFK, Jack Ruby met with Caracci on the pretext of using one of his dancers in his Dallas Carousel Club. (https://www.nationalcrimesyndicate.com/where-new-orleans-buries-its-dead-mobsters/ )

Estes' description of "Nick": white male, dark complexion, early 30s or 40s, 6'2", 200-plus pounds weight, big frame. Real black hair cut short. Mustache. Had an accent like New Orleans or Boston. Drove a late-model maroon Cadillac, 1962 or 1963, Louisiana license plates. Ruby called him "Nick". Had a ring on his right hand with diamonds, also a watch on his right arm.

Here is a photo of Nick Karno. Looks like a big guy, has a mustache. https://www.nationalcrimesyndicate.com/where-new-orleans-buries-its-dead-mobsters-nola-cemeteries/

Here is his grave: 1909-1994 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/149495851/nick-s-karno. 

However, there probably were any number of big guys named Nick who wore flashy jewelry and clothes and were shady from Louisiana... anyway that's a guess.

(2) On "Chuck", who seems to have managed the Carousel Club under Ruby and who hired and paid Estes--this was a tough one as I could find no "Chuck" or Charles of that description in the Carousel Club--who could that be?

My only guess is maybe Charles Isaacs of Dallas, the mysterious figure who featured in the Winnipeg Airport incident story. According to the witness who heard the conversation, Charles Isaacs was mentioned in the context of the JFK assassination. His wife did costume designing for some of Ruby's dancers. Charles Isaacs' name was in Ruby's notebook/phone book, the one the WC took Craford through item by item.

Peter Whitmey did the most research on Charles Isaacs, who never did receive much investigation. Whitmey suspected Isaacs could be more involved with Ruby than he was willing to admit. The major objection to Estes' "Chuck" being Charles Isaacs is Isaacs was working at American Airlines at Love Field, and nothing else corroborates him working in the Carousel Club in 1963. The positive argument for it being him is I think "Chuck" was somebody real because I think Estes was there and this was a real memory of Estes despite all of the drawbacks of being years later and imperfect, and there is no other Chuck or Charles connected to Ruby, especially as de facto manager of the Club ca. mid-1963, that I can find who it could be. Here is one of Whitmey's last articles on Charles Isaacs: https://www.jfk-assassination.net/winnipeg.htm.

Estes gave a physical description of "Chuck", but unfortunately I cannot find any photo or physical description of Charles Isaacs to compare. If anyone can think of a better candidate for the identity of Estes' "Chuck" figure I would like to know. 

My goodness.

New Orleans was "owned" by organized crime from way back.

Looking over the obituary list of mobsters there in the link Greg Doudna posted above...it's like they operated there with absolutely no interference from anyone!

Until Robert Kennedy became Attorney General of the United States.

[Greg Doudna]

6 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

My goodness.

New Orleans was "owned" by organized crime from way back.

Looking over the obituary list of mobsters there in the link Greg Doudna posted above...it's like they operated there with absolutely no interference from anyone!

Until Robert Kennedy became Attorney General of the United States.

That struck me too Joe.

If only there had been, I don't know, maybe a hard-hitting local district attorney or something, to dig into whether all that New Orleans mob activity, Ruby's contacts and so on, were involved in the JFK assassination.

I see RFK, Jr., has told of his father's first question was whether the CIA or the anti-Castro activity had killed his brother but apparently received "no" answers to his inquiries from sources he trusted such that it somewhat allayed his suspicion on that, then suspected the Mob got JFK because of what he, RFK, had done to the Mob (https://jfkfacts.substack.com/p/rfk-jr-on-jfk-my-fathers-first-instinct?r=3uy6f&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email).

And there are the reports of actual confessions from Marcello and a few others. This 2017 speech transcript of Moldea makes the mob case for the JFK assassination pretty well: https://www.moldea.com/MobMuseum10242017.pdf. And I want to reread Seth Kantor's book again. 

I see the Estes story, and the Jarnagin story, as possible glimpses and echoes of mob activity in the runup to the JFK assassination, that have not been appreciated or considered. 

[Greg Doudna]

James Odell Estes spoke of witnessing a visit of Governor John Connally to the Carousel Club in the summer of 1963 and what appears to have been a conveyance of bribe money. I am curious concerning the identity of the man with Connally. I believe Connally may have been conveyed to the meeting at the Carousel Club by patrolman Billy Joe Courson of the sheriff's department, whose job assigned to him by Sheriff Decker involved spending time in night clubs, including the Carousel Club. Here is Estes' account, following which I will make some comments. Estes:

"Chuck then came back down in about fifteen minutes and met two men who came in the back door. I recognized one of the men as John Connally who at that time was governor of the state of Texas. The man with him was a man who I had seen in the club a number of times previously. I never met him and never knew his name. This man was a white male, forty five to fifty years old, six feet tall, weighing 185 pounds. He was stocky but well built. He always wore western type clothes. I don't remember the color of his hair. I had no idea what he did at that time. I know that I saw this man subsequently in newspaper pictures that showed Ruby shooting Oswald. This man was standing directly behind Oswald in the pictures and was identified as a police officer. He had the same type hat that I had seen him wear in the club.

"Chuck took Connally and this other man to Rubys office. Chuck then called the bartender and told me to bring scotch, water, cigars and cigarettes to Rubys office. I took a bottle of Cutty Sark along with the other things to Rubys office. When I went in the following were in the room: Mr Connally, Mr Ruby, Chuck, Nick and Oswald [sic--Craford], and also the man who had come in with Connally. I put the liquor down and at that time I saw a black briefcase that was opened and was filled with money. I know I saw hundred dollar bills. This was the same type of brief case that Oswald [sic--Craford] had carried to the airport. I then left the room. The other men stayed in the room for forty five minutes to an hour. At that time Chuck came down stairs with Mr. Connally and the man who was with him and took them to the back door. I did not see how they left the club and I did not see how they arrived. Oswald [sic--Craford] then came down and caught a cab that was cruising by. He did not say anything to me. To the best of my belief this meeting took place during the first or second week in August [of 1963] and was a week day."

Estes seems to think the man who accompanied Connally was James Leavelle, based on seeing photos of Leavelle with Oswald in photos of Ruby shooting Oswald. But it is possible the man was Courson and Estes mistakenly thought he was Leavelle based on similarity of appearance.

Here is Courson (he was age 33 in 1963), the only known photo I could find of Courson, his age at the time of this photo unknown:

(Leavelle was age 43 in 1963.)

I tried to post a photo of Leavelle, and also the famous photo of Ruby shooting Oswald with Leavelle standing there, but the Forum software will not let me do so. I am not aware of reports that Leavelle hung out at the Carousel Club as Estes said the man did, whereas Courson did as part of his job duties. Courson would do so in plain clothes, though what kind of plain clothes is not known. (Estes said his man dressed western.)

Why would Connally be accompanied by a police officer in plain clothes? Neither Leavelle nor Courson worked for Connally nor is there any information either of them know Connally. In his account in Sneed Courson does say he came from family involved in Democratic Party politics ("I was a Democrat ... My father was a Democratic county commissioner"). 

The story told by Estes reads as a bribe, which would be money going to Connally for something. The money may be coming from New Orleans via "Nick", who is otherwise described by Estes as bedecked with flashy jewelry and driving a Cadillac with Louisiana plates and speaking with a New Orleans accent. Who knows, maybe it was mob money coming from Marcello.

Was Connally corrupt, in the sense of is this story plausible that he could take a bribe? In 1974 Connally was charged with accepting a bribe from a dairy consortium, it went to trial and in 1975 Connally was acquitted. You can look up the old newspaper stories on this. All I can say from reading them is, it is not clear to me whether he was acquitted because he was actually innocent or because of who he was and good lawyers. John Curington, HL Hunt's right-hand "fixer" and ops man, told me that Connally was on the take and HL Hunt had conveyed money to Connally by means of purchase of cattle from Connally with money paid to Connally and paperwork except Hunt never took delivery of the cattle. 

Fast forward from Estes' estimated first or second week of August 1963 time of what he saw, to the attorney Jarnagin Dec 1963 story of having been in the Carousel Club on Fri October 4 and having overheard Ruby and "Oswald" (sic, read Craford) at a nearby table. Jarnagin overheard talk of something about mob frustration with Connally for not "cooperating on paroles". From Jarnagin's December 1963 letter to FBI director J. Edgar Hoover:

"Lee: 'Not that it makes me any difference, but what have you got against the Governor?

"Ruby: 'He won't work with us on paroles; with a few of the right boys out we could really open up this State, with a little cooperation from the Governor ...."

(...)

Lee: 'How do you know that the Governor won't work with you?'

Ruby: 'Its no use, he's been in Washington too long, they're too straight up there; after they've been there awhile they get to thinking like the Attorney General. The Attorney General, now there's a guy the boys would like to get, but its no use, he stays in Washington too much..."

Ruby does not get more specific with reference to "he won't work with us on paroles" but could that allude to something more specific and concrete in the background? Its speculation of course, but did Estes witness a glimpse of a bribe to Connally to spring one or more specific names free from sentences as the quid pro quo request? Parole board interventions or something?

By the time Jarnagin overhears two months later, Ruby is telling of mob interest in killing Connally. Had they paid good money and did not get what they wanted from Connally? Connally took the money but hadn't delivered, or had not delivered in the manner and to the degree wanted, or fast enough?

If something along that line is assumed as a working hypothesis--a bribe to Connally from mob interests, taking place in Ruby's office in the Carousel Club--how does something like that work? Probably a contact and communication is made to Connally, and after the usual schmoozing maybe Connally is invited to meet a Marcello representative at the Carousel Club to discuss the matter further and "who has something he wants to give you". How the logistics could be done is Ruby arranges for a law enforcement officer--Courson with whom he is in friendly relationship, if Courson is willing--to pick up Governor Connally at such and such a time, and securely convey him to and from the meeting (the fact that he is an officer will also be reassuring to Connally for his personal security as well). The idea is Courson is chauffeur for the VIP guest being invited to the meeting at Ruby's office at his place of business. 

James Odell Estes, even though telling of this many years later, told honestly to the best of his ability what he remembered. Estes would be less likely to be mistaken on the Connally identification since Governor Connally was a public figure in all the news and not easily mistakable. But Estes more easily could be mistaken on the man accompanying Connally, and thought he recognized him in Leavelle. But the man was not Leavelle. However Courson could be plausible as functioning on behalf of Ruby. Courson was acquainted with Ruby and spent time at the Carousel Club as Estes said the man did. All that has to be supposed is Courson resembled Leavelle sufficiently and Estes mistakenly thought one was the other after seeing a photo.

From Courson in Sneed, No More Silence:

"After the sentencing, Jack [Ruby] was incarcerated at the county jail. Bill McCarthy was one of Jack's babysitters or guards there. One day he said, 'Bill, I've got to go down to the sheriff's office. Come and go with me and we'll see Jack. Jack's asked about you a couple of times, you know.' "

 

[Greg Doudna]

Invisibility in open view

Nobody else finds the James Odell Estes story of interest? It has never appeared in books or articles, never gets mentioned. But it is a true story of an honest man living with what he believed were dangerous secrets who, with the knowledge he will die soon due to his health conditions (which was true; he did), decided to unburden his story the only way he knew--by going to the FBI and telling them. No seeking of fame or fortune or publicity or money.

A recognition that although Estes' "Oswald" figure was not Oswald the figure also was not an invention and may be identified as Curtis Craford, if correct, is a possibly significant breakthrough, truly new in the world of JFK assassination research, with repercussions yet to be explored.. Does no one find this of interest? 

The James Odell Estes story has to be critically evaluated since it first comes to light fourteen years after the assassination. It must be given no less critical scrutiny than one gives to, say, the story of Jack Tatum's story of witnessing the Tippit killing, which first came to light about fifteen years later.

Here is my critical evaluation of James Odell Estes' story: I do not believe Estes fabricated one bit of it, as distinguished from errors in memory and interpretation of his memory (e.g. that he had had dealings with Oswald).

The FBI humored the dying man, who had lived a rough life and had no social standing. They took his statement, sent in the report to FBI hq with a note saying no further action would be taken. 

Nothing to see there. 

Its only a firsthand witness to some things in the Carousel Club about three months before the assassination. 

Its only an allegation--sure it is uncorroborated and could be total fiction, but an allegation concerning John Connally--of an appearance of a bribe or at least a bribe offer (who knows, maybe Connally refused to accept the briefcase of money, Estes didn't see him take it)--three months before Governor Connally riding with JFK was shot along with JFK in the JFK assassination. Connally alleged to be meeting a Louisiana mob type character in the office of Jack Ruby's nightclub--the nightclub of the man who shot and killed Oswald after Oswald had allegedly shot Connally and JFK.

But apart from that, nothing significant at all in the story, right?

Who involved with researching the JFK assassination, or still-unresolved questions of the role of Jack Ruby, could possibly find that of any interest? 

This is a story that has been missed in all of the published Jack Ruby books, TV specials, and magazine feature articles about JFK, Ruby, and mobsters--and missed in all of the analyses taking an interest in Curtis Craford and Craford's suspicious flight from Dallas hours after the assassination or, perhaps better put and more to the point, hours after the Tippit killing.

And why is that? What is the explanation for such studied lack of interest in the James Odell Estes written statement preserved in FBI documents available on the MFF site?

It has to be because of Estes' "Oswald" identification, his description of a figure he retrospectively thought had been Oswald but which sounds like one more mistaken identification of Curtis Craford among a number of others (not so complicated). It has to be because Estes' claim that Oswald had been hanging around the Carousel Club in Dallas in the summer of 1963 sounded so outlandish (as, if one is speaking of Oswald, it was), that Estes' story has been dismissed.

Instead of it occurring to anyone that maybe James Odell Estes' story wasn't a hallucination, but was a true story except for a misidentification of Craford, mistakenly thought to have been Oswald, and some other garbling of pronunciations of names of real persons. 

As happened with Jarnagin who saw Craford and thought it was Oswald. As happened with the staff at the Contract Electronics store who dealt with Ruby and Craford who walked in the door, then after seeing Oswald's picture on TV folllowing the assassination, the staff thought it had been Ruby and Oswald. 

As with waitress Mary Lawrence at the Lucas B & B restaurant where Ruby and Craford ate at 2-3 am in the early morning hours of Nov 22, 1963. Mary Lawrence thought the man with Ruby, Craford, had been Oswald too, even though it wasn't. Mary Lawrence was not hallucinating. She just got the identity of one of the two wrong.

And here is an FBI report of a businessman who tells the FBI on Nov 27, 1963, just five days after the assassination, that he thought the FBI should know that one of his employees had an aunt who said she had dated Ruby during the summer of 1963 and that according to the nephew "she knew Oswald was in Ruby's employ during June and July, 1963" but was "deadly afraid" of talking about it, a fearful witness, Dorothy Marcum (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=56999#relPageId=46).

Obviously Oswald was not in Ruby's employ in June and July, 1963.

But by an amazing coincidence that is when James Odell Estes thought Oswald was there too. It raises the reasonable question whether the same man is the referent in both stories, of Dorothy Marcum and James Odell Estes. In Estes' account he says he started to work in the Carousel Club, by his memory, the last week of June, and first met the man he identified as Oswald during the first or second week of July.

Also, Estes does not say his "Oswald" was employed in the Carousel Club, only that he was there hanging around with Ruby.

But never mind those quibbles, it is close enough. Not one but two stories of an "Oswald" at the Carousel Club at the same time in July 1963. 

Of course Oswald wasn't there. Oswald was in New Orleans that summer. That is not the point here.

The point is it supports that James Odell Estes was not fabricating. James Odell Estes was there.

But there has been almost zero interest in the JFK assassination research community to an assessment of the James Odell Estes story going beyond a recognition of Mistake #1, that Oswald was not at the Carousel Club in the summer of 1963. And the JFK assassination research community, like the FBI office who humored Estes and took his report, considers Estes' mistaken identification in his retrospective interpretation to be stand-alone sufficient to therefore consider the story of no further interest.

Thereby missing a possible source of information not previously recognized about Curtis Craford, Jack Ruby, Chuck Isaacs, a possibly identifiable New Orleans mobster named "Nick", and maybe even Governor John Connally.  

That's a lot of nothing not to see there. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Greg Doudna