CIA Memo? When LHO "Allegedly" Visited the MC Soviet Embassy

[Leslie Sharp]

19 minutes ago, Michael Crane said:

The vehicle has been taken to the scrap yard & scrapped.Can't remember which year.

Like I have said before on this forum,there is video footage of this car being worked on in a secret location.

You might be interested in Bartholomew's monograph on the subject, "Byrds, Planes, and Automobiles." He spent years figuring out the provenance, and I'm almost certain he and Harrison purchased the car before it was sold as scrap.

[Leslie Sharp]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

AsI recall, J Morley and another researcher did talk to Roman,  and she confirmed records were monkeyed with. 

@Benjamin Cole Only when trapped did she come clean as it were.

I'm interested because her name is also on documents related to Jean Souetre, both in the spring of 1963 and March of 1964 when French intel asked if Souetre had been expelled.

If Roman, as liaison between Angleton and the FBI, was aware of Souetre — and before the Oswald Legend took complete hold of the investigation  — why didn't "someone" ask her about the OAS and the possibility Souetre —  a legend within the agency for having attempted to assassinate de Gaulle in August 1962 (remember SDECE Vosjoli was Angleton's best bud by then) — was in Dallas on November 22?

Instead, questions directed at Roman pertained to the patsy.  How very ironic.

Where are the Bailey and Norwood official INS reports?

Edited July 2, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Michael Crane]

7 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

You might be interested in Bartholomew's monograph on the subject, "Byrds, Planes, and Automobiles." He spent years figuring out the provenance, and I'm almost certain he and Harrison purchased the car before it was sold as scrap.

Yeah,I believe that Jay owned it after Bartholomew.Bartholomew was driving it to a Texas University?

Either or....the bottom line is it was taken to a scrap yard if everyone is telling the truth.

[Leslie Sharp]

5 hours ago, Joseph Backes said:

Do we really need to summarize John Newman's book, and Jefferson Morley's and Gaston Fonzi's, and the Lopez report, and a few hundred documents in this thread before it dies?

What did Jane Roman know about Jean Souetre, known to the agency for having attempted to assassinate de Gaulle in August 1962; she processed the reports of his meeting in Lisbon requesting "additional" support; she processed the Paris Legat request for clarification of Souetre's whereabouts and whether he had been expelled immediately after the assassination.

This line of inquiry is germane to the thread, not only because Roman (purportedly) skewed the Oswald/MC documents, but Souetre passed through Mexico City according the the private records of the project manager for the Dallas plot, Pierre Lafitte.

Oswald was not a known assassin. Souetre was.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Leslie Sharp]

3 minutes ago, Michael Crane said:

Yeah,I believe that Jay owned it after Bartholomew.Bartholomew was driving it to a Texas University?

Either or....the bottom line is it was taken to a scrap yard if everyone is telling the truth.

Bartholomew spotted it on the campus of UT I believe. He tells a fascinating story well worth the read. He and Jay were 'partners' in the investigation; Jay maintained copious notes on a DAT which he kept updated. The information stored on that tape is likely invaluable; it passed through my hands to Duke University and hopefully remains in a safe until someone figures out how to lift the data without destroying the tape.

[Gene Kelly]

21 hours ago, Joseph Backes said:

People,

It's not important if the real LHO went to MC or not.  Do not get lost in a discussion of did he or didn't he. 

The important thing is who was told that he did and why were they being told that he did.  And that that information went into several US intel agency files and did not ring alarm bells.  It lay dormant and bloomed like a virus only after the gunfire in Dealey Plaza. And then it was used to silence those US intel agencies, to blackmail them into inaction.

There was info about LHO visiting with Soviets and Cubans, even meeting the Soviet guy in charge of assassinations in the Western hemisphere, threatening to kill JFK six weeks before the murder and you did nothing? So, instead of people learning that they all decide to support the lone nut solution.

There are very few people on earth in 1963 who could accomplish this task six weeks before the assassination. And it is the best evidence of a conspiracy within the highest levels of the US federal government. 

The story of MC was used to get Earl Warren to chair the commission LBJ creates.  The transcript of this LBJ phone call to Senator Richard Russell is in Michael Beschloss's first book on the LBJ tapes, "Taking Charge." ops 66 - 72. LBJ is telling Russell how he got Warren to come to the White House. LBJ sent RFK to get him and Warren refused.  LBJ demanded he come and when he did he hit him with the WWIII threat.  "And I just pulled out  what Hoover told me about a little incident in Mexico City."  

It doesn't matter if the real LHO or an imposter met Kostikov.  What matters is the story of LHO meeting Kostikov is told to people who do believe it and are terrified when they hear it.  They are thus manipulated into stopping others from hearing this story fearing the American public will demand a nuclear strike against Cuba or Russia or both and then it's WWIII because it'll be your fault if people learn this, and your fault if WWIII starts.  

Who came up with this WWIII threat is a better question to ask then did the real LHO go to MC or not.

Joe

Joe

I read your transcripts from Lancer 1999 and Newman’s “Mexico City ­ A New Analysis”.  This is an intricate story to follow, but I agree that it’s not important to debate whether Oswald was actually there (in Mexico City) or not.  What is clear is that he was impersonated (i.e., Duran's blonde-haired Oswald; no photo of the real Oswald). The content of the September 28th call makes it clear it's not Oswald. HSCA’s Edwin Lopez also knew it when he analyzed the transcript of the bogus call, which Newman characterizes as “dumb and it's stupid”.  The plotters are trying to paint a picture … in Newman’s words:

'I was just there.' So, the guy on the other end, the Russian, says, 'Okay, you were here. Well, I gave you my address.' "So, the guy says, 'Okay,' you know. And this Oswald character says, 'But I didn't know it, but I know it now.  So, the Soviet guy says, 'Well, why don't you come over then and give it to us. We're very close by.'

Here are the key points that I took from Newman’s Lancer presentation:

It is now apparent that the World War III pretext for a national security cover-up was built into the fabric of the plot to assassinate Kennedy. The plot required that:

1. Oswald be maneuvered into place in Mexico City and his activities there carefully monitored, controlled, and, if necessary, embellished and choreographed.
2. Prior to 22 November, Oswald's profile at CIA HQS and the Mexico station be lowered; his 201 file had to be manipulated and restricted from incoming traffic on his Cuban activities.
3. And when the story from Mexico City arrived at HQS, its significance would not be understood by those responsible for reacting to it.
4. Finally, on 22 November, Oswald's CIA files would establish his connection to Castro and the Kremlin.

The person who designed this plot had to have:

• access to all of the information on Oswald at CIA HQS
• the authority to alter how information on Oswald was kept at CIA HQS
• the authority to alter how information on Oswald was kept at CIA HQS
• access to project TUMBLEWEED, the sensitive joint agency operation against the KGB assassin, Valery Kostikov
• the authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the Cuban affairs staff (SAS) at CIA HQS.

There is only one person whose hands fit into these gloves: James Angleton, Chief of CIA's Counterintelligence Staff.  The false information that helped promote this WWIII “Kostikov balloon” virus got into Oswald’s file and concluded that the person who controlled the file at those points was Ann Egerter, one of the six or so hand-picked operatives working in James Jesus Angleton’s CI/SIG unit.

We also see the hand of Lyndon Johnson directing a lot of the cover-up, with the Mexico City story driving everything that follows.  It's a very powerful argument, a big weapon, not just in the hands of LBJ, but in the hands of anybody who would want an autopsy report burned, who would intimidate enlisted guys, medical technicians.

Gene

[Gene Kelly]

19 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

The caller (who seems to not be Oswald) does NOT refer to Kostikov--that is the Russian person answering the phone at the Soviet consulate who volunteers the name.

October 1 at 11:30 a.m.

The same voice, still speaking in broken Russian, telephones the Russian Consulate. He speaks to a man identified as "Obyedkov."

Oswald: Hello, this is Lee Oswald. I was at your place last Saturday and talked to your Consul. They said they'd send a telegram to Washington and I wanted to ask you whether there was anything new, but I cannot remember the name of the Consul.

Obyedkov: Kostikov. He is dark?

Oswald: Yes. My name is Oswald.

Obyedkov: Just a minute. I'll find out. They say they have not received anything yet.

Oswald: Have they done anything?

Obyedkov: Yes, they say a request has been sent out, but nothing has been received yet.

Oswald: And what...

Obyedkov: (hangs up)

(source: https://www.newsweek.com/transcript-lee-harvey-oswald-calls-soviet-embassy-revealed-jfk-file-release-701924)

Since it seems to be an impersonator calling, and the impersonator says "I cannot remember the name", could this be a phishing call? The US side knows Oswald went in and talked inside but does not know to who exactly, and is trying to find out more information? The phishing call gets lucky and a name is learned?

Good clarification Greg ...

[Joseph Backes]

2 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Joe

I read your transcripts from Lancer 1999 and Newman’s “Mexico City ­ A New Analysis”.  This is an intricate story to follow, but I agree that it’s not important to debate whether Oswald was actually there (in Mexico City) or not.  What is clear is that he was impersonated (i.e., Duran's blonde-haired Oswald; no photo of the real Oswald). The content of the September 28th call makes it clear it's not Oswald. HSCA’s Edwin Lopez also knew it when he analyzed the transcript of the bogus call, which Newman characterizes as “dumb and it's stupid”.  The plotters are trying to paint a picture … in Newman’s words:

'I was just there.' So, the guy on the other end, the Russian, says, 'Okay, you were here. Well, I gave you my address.' "So, the guy says, 'Okay,' you know. And this Oswald character says, 'But I didn't know it, but I know it now.  So, the Soviet guy says, 'Well, why don't you come over then and give it to us. We're very close by.'

Here are the key points that I took from Newman’s Lancer presentation:

It is now apparent that the World War III pretext for a national security cover-up was built into the fabric of the plot to assassinate Kennedy. The plot required that:

1. Oswald be maneuvered into place in Mexico City and his activities there carefully monitored, controlled, and, if necessary, embellished and choreographed.
2. Prior to 22 November, Oswald's profile at CIA HQS and the Mexico station be lowered; his 201 file had to be manipulated and restricted from incoming traffic on his Cuban activities.
3. And when the story from Mexico City arrived at HQS, its significance would not be understood by those responsible for reacting to it.
4. Finally, on 22 November, Oswald's CIA files would establish his connection to Castro and the Kremlin.

The person who designed this plot had to have:

• access to all of the information on Oswald at CIA HQS
• the authority to alter how information on Oswald was kept at CIA HQS
• the authority to alter how information on Oswald was kept at CIA HQS
• access to project TUMBLEWEED, the sensitive joint agency operation against the KGB assassin, Valery Kostikov
• the authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the Cuban affairs staff (SAS) at CIA HQS.

There is only one person whose hands fit into these gloves: James Angleton, Chief of CIA's Counterintelligence Staff.  The false information that helped promote this WWIII “Kostikov balloon” virus got into Oswald’s file and concluded that the person who controlled the file at those points was Ann Egerter, one of the six or so hand-picked operatives working in James Jesus Angleton’s CI/SIG unit.

We also see the hand of Lyndon Johnson directing a lot of the cover-up, with the Mexico City story driving everything that follows.  It's a very powerful argument, a big weapon, not just in the hands of LBJ, but in the hands of anybody who would want an autopsy report burned, who would intimidate enlisted guys, medical technicians.

Gene

Newman picked Angleton in the updated version of "Oswald and the CIA," I believe.  

[Greg Doudna]

Joseph Backes, your analyses much valued. If this is a question that has been rehashed to death before I apologize, but I wonder if you could comment:

Accepting (provisionally) the analysis on the manipulation of the Oswald information prior to the assassination and tracing it back to maybe Angleton ... 

Since that was followed by an assassination of JFK it is a very powerful temptation, which many have done, to draw the connection that insiders, e.g. Angleton, were planning the assassination of JFK in what they were doing in the runup with the Oswald information.

And yet I just wonder--what the intelligence agencies and dark ops and Joint Chiefs etc. did was false flags. There are documents on that (Northwoods). There are precedents, there are lots of examples. A false flag attempt on JFK (to be blamed on Castro) would stand out for its audacity but would fall in the spectrum of the known, one might say common and routine, m.o. of those worlds. 

There may have been some really bad actors within or without CIA or wherever who hated JFK and would kill him for real, but under no circumstances that I can see could that have been a CIA-approved secret operation, as part of the planning of secret operations that did take place involving false-flagging Castro, and as the evidence suggests, manipulation of Oswald information--to knock off a standing president of the United States. At best there could be some insider faction giving winks and nods and looking the other way, etc. as something maybe was in the works. But it would have to be highly secretive, closely-held to only a few, highly risky, never officially approved, unknown to the rest of the Agency or above a certain level, the Agency's directorship.   

(I am just using reasoning, being less versed in this than people like you and Larry Hancock.)

Unlike the anti-Castro efforts which involved false flags, assassination plots, the works. Those were business as usual. Those were signed off on right up to directorship level and with intentional deniability but it just seems to me JFK and RFK knew but did not officially know, if you get my drift, what was being done by subordinates immediately below them.

 And yet, the fact: this pre-assassination some-kind-of manipulation of Oswald information related to that trip to Mexico City, contact with Kostikov etc and etc, was followed by the assassination of JFK.

What I am getting at is everything about CIA actions prior to that point works well as a false-flag not-real-assassination intended, i.e. what would look like an assassination attempt to be pinned on Castro that failed ... angering the American public and the world and justifying whatever "in response" against Castro's regime ... (business as usual for the dirty ops types). 

I would think at least 90% of the insider professionals who knew how to do dirty ops would balk if they had any idea that it involved a real assassination of a president no matter who the president was. It is not obvious to me that even Angleton would not balk at the idea of knocking off a president, if he knew that was what was going to happen. Even if he was up to his ears in this manipulation of Oswald information in the runup.

All of this is to say it just looks--no?--like some sort of Waldron thesis of some actor--some mob actors being the obvious suspect--somehow matched a real assassination to be pinned on Oswald (via the rifle, not by advance plan to frame Oswald as the shooter)--and all--all--of the coverup activity that followed the assassination could be explicable not as agencies having knowingly killed JFK but of having knowingly been party to manipulation of Oswald information (which was to false-flag Castro, what that was about), and a false-flag attempt to "launch war on Cuba and world war III" as it would look if it were exposed. 

That is: something--an incident--but certainly not fatal to JFK--was planned and operational that could have gone big-time into escalation to invasion of Cuba, overthrow of Castro, and chess moves against the Soviet Union. But actual assassination of JFK was not part of those operational plans. 

Just asking for your opinion on this: right track or wrong track in reasoning, in your view?

[Mark Knight]

20 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

@Mark Knight Have you conferred with Richard Bartholomew over the years? I believe he and Jay Harrison played a significant role in early preservation of this vehicle. 

I have not. I have read a great deal about this vehicle in years past, and I am nearly convinced that it indeed has significance to the JFK assassination and the late 1963 travels of Lee Oswald.

[Michael Crane]

17 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

"Byrds, Planes, and Automobiles."

Oh my Leslie,

What I read has my head spinning.I'm going to have to read that thing again probably 3 times.So much information to absorb.Baffling I tell ya.

Thanks!

[Leslie Sharp]

3 minutes ago, Michael Crane said:

Oh my Leslie,

What I read has my head spinning.I'm going to have to read that thing again probably 3 times.So much information to absorb.Baffling I tell ya.

Thanks!

Glad you were able to locate it; I went in search for you but got distracted. The last time I searched, it had been buried fairly deep. 

[Michael Crane]

To be honest...I read it last night...and now...I can't find that thing.

I'm not sure on how that happens.

Trust me,I'm telling the truth.

[Leslie Sharp]

36 minutes ago, Michael Crane said:

To be honest...I read it last night...and now...I can't find that thing.

I'm not sure on how that happens.

Trust me,I'm telling the truth.

Happened to me as well.
Next time, I'll tag it and file away.

[Michael Crane]

Just now, Leslie Sharp said:

Happened to me as well.
Next time, I'll tag it and file away.

I don't think that there is any question that I got Bartholomew mixed up with that George Wing guy.I've seen both guys now and I remember seeing a picture of George Wing driving the car.The picture was taken on George's left side.I certainly hope that you find it.I know that I will be looking also.