Clint Hill debunks Paul Landis

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

He said he performed 200 autopsies.  

He wasn’t constrained from probing the wound.  Jenkins and O’Conner described a wound path that didn’t penetrate the pleura.

Your “arguments” are formulaic — you automatically dismiss the evidence of a shallow back wound.

Sure we do.  The wound was probed repeatedly.  There was no exit.  

Ben, I know your formula — which you will never get off of no matter how many facts contradict you — posits a magical mystery tour with a bullet striking at the level of T3 at a downward angle, then making a drastic change of direction striking the right T1 transverse process, then another magical tour ripping a couple inches of trachea and exiting below the Adam’s apple.

Finck was an experienced autopsist, your smearing of the man aside.

"He (Finck) said he performed 200 autopsies."  

And how many, in peacetime Germany, involved death by gunshot? And of those, how many were unexplained or suspicious murders (not suicides)? 

A murder by gunshot autopsy should be attended by an experienced forensic pathologist, preferably one with lots of gunshot experience, such as found in the morgues of a major US city. 

Had Finck ever probed the pathway of a bullet in a murder victim ever in his professional career?   

As it is, it may be the bullet that struck JFK in the back was undercharged, penetrated modestly, then popped out from the shock wave sent from the following head shot. Then Landis found it. That is one scenario, as plausible as others. 

I would like to know if Landis remembers if the bullet he found was pointy-headed or not. 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

"He (Finck) said he performed 200 autopsies."  

And how many, in peacetime Germany, involved death by gunshot? And of those, how many were unexplained or suspicious murders (not suicides)? 

Out of 200 autopsies Finck said “many” involved gunshot wounds.  

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

A murder by gunshot autopsy should be attended by an experienced forensic pathologist, preferably one with lots of gunshot experience, such as found in the morgues of a major US city. 

Had Finck ever probed the pathway of a bullet in a murder victim ever in his professional career?   

 

“Many” out of 200 autopsies involved gunshots.  Interesting that you have to smear any witness inconvenient to your pet theories.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

As it is, it may be the bullet that struck JFK in the back was undercharged, penetrated modestly, then popped out from the shock wave sent from the following head shot. Then Landis found it. That is one scenario, as plausible as others. 

Bullets don’t pop out of wounds

[Benjamin Cole]

7 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Out of 200 autopsies Finck said “many” involved gunshot wounds.  

“Many” out of 200 autopsies involved gunshots.  Interesting that you have to smear any witness inconvenient to your pet theories.

Bullets don’t pop out of wounds

"Bullets don’t pop out of wounds"-CV

Landis, who was or is experienced with firearms, says "he believes the bullet was undercharged and fell from a shallow wound in JFK's back onto the limo seat."

CV, are you an experienced gun enthusiast? Worked in any autopsies? Surgeries? Been a deer hunter, etc.? 

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

"Bullets don’t pop out of wounds"-CV

Landis, who was or is experienced with firearms, says "he believes the bullet was undercharged and fell from a shallow wound in JFK's back onto the limo seat."

CV, are you an experienced gun enthusiast? Worked in any autopsies? Surgeries? Been a deer hunter, etc.? 

 

 

How many autopsies had Landis performed?  

Tell us the factual basis for the claim.

[Benjamin Cole]

51 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

How many autopsies had Landis performed?  

Tell us the factual basis for the claim.

Tell us the factual basis for an undercharged bullet never leaves a very shallow wound, even after a shock wave passes through a human body. 

If Landis is telling the truth...then where did the slug he found come from? 

You are correct in one regard---neither you nor Landis is qualified to state whether such an event is possible, or have any solid clue about the topic. 

But Landis is an expert on what he personally saw on 11/22. 

Landis said he saw a slug on the top of the rear seat of the limo, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA. Maybe he is mistaken. 

If Landis' memory is correct, then...where did the slug come from? 

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Tell us the factual basis for an undercharged bullet never leaves a very shallow wound, even after a shock wave passes through a human body. 

Because wounds close around bullets.  Look it up.  For an undercharged round to strike the back the shooter had to have aimed over JFK’s head.

Both of these points have been discussed extensively on the EF.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If Landis is telling the truth...then where did the slug he found come from? 

From a firearm.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You are correct in one regard---neither you nor Landis is qualified to state whether such an event is possible, or have any solid clue about the topic. 

We have the reports on the autopsy and their certainty the back shot did not transit.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Benjamin Cole]

37 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Because wounds close around bullets.  Look it up.  For an undercharged round to strike the back the shooter had to have aimed over JFK’s head.

Both of these points have been discussed extensively on the EF.

From a firearm.

We have the reports on the autopsy and their certainty the back shot did not transit.

Well, you have the last word.

The JFK autopsy was lacking in nearly every regard, extensively harried and cut short.

My limited understanding is that even fundamentals were neglected. Records were destroyed. 

Wounds were not sectioned, which (generally) would have conclusively shown pathways, if any. 

PS...If the back wound was less than an inch...the Western Cartridge slug is one-inch-and-one-quarter long. 

So...how does a wound "close up" around a slug still protruding from the body? And then a shock wave passes through that body moments later? 

Gee, might that bullet pop out? 

That strikes me as plausible. 

If Landis' memory is correct...very plausible. 

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

https://www.cryptogon.com/?p=67681

<quote on> 

Former Secret Service agent, Paul Landis, found the Magic Bullet on the top of the back seat of the limo?

Undercharged round???

Mmm hmm.

Nealy 60 years after the JFK assassination, we now have Magic Bullet 2.0.

Can anyone explain to me how the possibly “undercharged” Magic Bullet 2.0 managed to hit the target at all if the person firing the rifle dialed in DOPE [Data Observed from Previous Engagements?] for a standard velocity round?

Not only did the “undercharged” Magic Bullet 2.0 have enough velocity to hit the target using DOPE for a standard round, but it then, “Dislodged from a shallow wound in the president’s back, falling back onto the limousine seat.” 

If you’re not familiar with shooting high powered rifles, run this scenario past someone who is has and note the response.

It will go something like, “No way.”

Personal experience: I’ve probably shot something like 15,000 centerfire rifle cartridges in my life, mostly 5.56, 7.62×51 and 7.62×39. Also, some larger stuff, .300 Winmag, .338, etc. How many of those do you think were “Undercharged”?

None. Zero. Zilch.

I had a few bad primers (under a handful) fail to fire in all of that time. I mostly fired old, cheap military surplus ammo and most of that was not made in the U.S. I don’t think I ever had a U.S. manufactured centerfire rifle round (Winchester, Federal, Remington, etc.) fail to fire.

How many “undercharged” centerfire rifle cartridges have you encountered in your decades of shooting?

Imagine the odds, on the big day almost 60 years ago… A defective cartridge? Tell me another one. 

Someone, somewhere might try to sell you on squib loads to explain this. I’m just here to tell you, in over forty years of shooting, it hasn’t happened to me, or any of my friends. (Somewhere on this site you can read about my wife’s cousin trying to kill a pig with a wet .22. That doesn’t count, because first, that’s rimfire, which is less reliable than centerfire and, second, it was wet.)

</q>

Edited September 14, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Michael Griffith]

11 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

HSCA attorney Belford V. Lawson*, in charge of the Secret Service area of the "investigation," is the author of a recently uncovered memo in regard to an interview with Nathan Pool conducted on 1/10/77 and headlined "POOL's CO-DISCOVERY OF THE 'TOMLINSON' BULLET." In the memo, Pool mentions the fact that TWO Secret Service agents were by the elevator, one of which " remained there throughout most or all of Pool's stay". Before we can catch our breath, a THIRD Secret Service agent enters the picture; although all these men were in the immediate vicinity of the discovery of the bullet, one particular agent "was within 10 feet when Pool recognized the bullet". According to Pool, the bullet was pointed, and he added that it "didn't look like it had hit anything and didn't look like it had been in anything".

Lawson felt that further development of Pool's testimony may reveal the following:

QUOTE: "A SECRET SERVICE AGENT WAS FOR A SIGNIFICANT PERIOD OF TIME CLOSE ENOUGH TO THE ELEVATOR TO PLANT A BULLET; MAY LEAD TO AN IDENTIFICATION OF THAT AGENT..."

Pool Nathan 01.pdf (archive.org)

Wow. This is important. Thanks for sharing this.

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Well, you have the last word.

The JFK autopsy was lacking in nearly every regard, extensively harried and cut short.

It ended when FBI SA Sibert called the FBI Lab to follow thru on the autopsists’ ltheory JFK was hit with a high-tech round.  That was when the Magic Bullet raised it’s ugly rounded head.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

My limited understanding is that even fundamentals were neglected. Records were destroyed. 

Wounds were not sectioned, which (generally) would have conclusively shown pathways, if any. 

The wound was professionally probed — your naysaying aside.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

PS...If the back wound was less than an inch...the Western Cartridge slug is one-inch-and-one-quarter long. 

So...how does a wound "close up" around a slug still protruding from the body?

What other million to one shots do you find plausible?

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 

And then a shock wave passes through that body moments later? 

Gee, might that bullet pop out? 

That strikes me as plausible. 

If Landis' memory is correct...very plausible. 

 

 

Uh hunh.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Benjamin Cole]

7 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

It ended when FBI SA Sibert called the FBI Lab to follow thru on the autopsists’ ltheory JFK was hit with a high-tech round.  That was when the Magic Bullet raised it’s ugly rounded head.

The wound was professionally probed — your naysaying aside.

What other million to one shots do you find plausible?

Uh hunh.

So...if Landis speaks the truth...your explanation of the slug he found is...what? Another shot that harmlessly landed in the limo? 

Seems to me you are hoist on your own petard on the "shallow" bullet wound. 

Such a shallow wound could not close up around an 1 and 1/4 inch long slug--the Western Cartridge slug. 

And only seconds passed before JFK is shuddered hard by a second shot, sending a shock wave through his body. 

So how could a one-inch deep or less wound swallow and hold a 1 and 1/4 inch long slug...when a few seconds later JFK is rocked by another shot (at least one. Pat Speer posits there may have another)? 

You might have to re-think your analysis. 

In light of new evidence, old shibboleths die away. 

So it goes. 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

So...if Landis speaks the truth...your explanation of the slug he found is...what? Another shot that harmlessly landed in the limo? 

Okay.

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Seems to me you are hoist on your own petard on the "shallow" bullet wound. 

As a habitual naysayer you would say that.

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Such a shallow wound could not close up around an 1 and 1/4 inch long slug--the Western Cartridge slug. 

What gives you the idea such a thing is possible— other than the demands of a pet theory?

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

And only seconds passed before JFK is shuddered hard by a second shot, sending a shock wave through his body. 

So how could a one-inch deep or less wound swallow and hold a 1 and 1/4 inch long slug

Because bullets don’t behave that way.

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 

..when a few seconds later JFK is rocked by another shot (at least one. Pat Speer posits there may have another)? 

You might have to re-think your analysis. 

Show us an instance where a high powered rifle slug protruded from an entrance wound.

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Pat Speer]

9 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

He said he performed 200 autopsies.  

He wasn’t constrained from probing the wound.  Jenkins and O’Conner described a wound path that didn’t penetrate the pleura.

Your “arguments” are formulaic — you automatically dismiss the evidence of a shallow back wound.

Sure we do.  The wound was probed repeatedly.  There was no exit.  

Ben, I know your formula — which you will never get off of no matter how many facts contradict you — posits a magical mystery tour with a bullet striking at the level of T3 at a downward angle, then making a drastic change of direction striking the right T1 transverse process, then another magical tour ripping a couple inches of trachea and exiting below the Adam’s apple.

Finck was an experienced autopsist, your smearing of the man aside.

It should also be noted that Baden has long pretended Finck had no hands-on experience. This is a con he pulls so that people will believe his colleagues' claim the autopsy doctors were idiots, and incorrectly placed the bullet entrance on the back of the head. Finck lived a long time after Baden started playing this game. Unfortunately he moved to Switzerland and washed his hands of the matter. If he hadn't, and had confronted Baden on his slander, well,, that would have been interesting. 

[Pat Speer]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

"Bullets don’t pop out of wounds"-CV

Landis, who was or is experienced with firearms, says "he believes the bullet was undercharged and fell from a shallow wound in JFK's back onto the limo seat."

CV, are you an experienced gun enthusiast? Worked in any autopsies? Surgeries? Been a deer hunter, etc.? 

 

 

The bullet never entered the back. That is what Humes observed. It left a divot at the surface. But did not enter. 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

The bullet never entered the back. That is what Humes observed. It left a divot at the surface. But did not enter. 

Citation please.