Clint Hill debunks Paul Landis

[Vince Palamara]

5 minutes ago, Karl Kinaski said:

 Since we know that the back wound was the depth of half a finger only and had no connection with the throat wound - a fact which by it's own debunks the myth of one shooter only - I don't see the point of a lengthy discussion about a claim by an SS agent finding a bullet in the limo 60 years after the fact. 

BTW

V. Palamara showed SS Agents were lying through the years and had ever changing memories. 

I don't give a damn what Landis claims. 

 

KK

I definitely get where you are coming from but, due to the nature of WHO is saying it (a former JFK agent there in the motorcade), it is significant (even IF he is lying).

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Karl Kinaski said:

 Since we know that the back wound was the depth of half a finger only and had no connection with the throat wound - a fact which by it's own debunks the myth of one shooter only - I don't see the point of a lengthy discussion about a claim by an SS agent finding a bullet in the limo 60 years after the fact. 

BTW

V. Palamara showed SS Agents were lying through the years and had ever changing memories. 

I don't give a damn what Landis claims. 

 

KK

Thank you, Karl!  I thought it was just me!

In what universe is a 60 year old memory better proof of conspiracy than the location of the bullet holes in JFK’s clothes?

[Karl Kinaski]

@Cliff Varnell  Thank you, Karl!  I thought it was just me!

@Karl Kinaski My pleasure. 

@Cliff Varnell In what universe is a 60 year old memory better proof of conspiracy than the location of the bullet holes in JFK’s clothes?

@Karl Kinaski In the universe of "Gossip Girl"? - Much gossip here anyway. 

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

 

He doesn't really debunk Landis. He just expresses doubt. That's only natural. It's like two college buddies having a 70 year reunion, whereupon one "admits" he'd had sex with the other guy's girlfriend in the dorm when the other guy was sleeping. And the other guy says "Nope, you were dreaming!" 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Vince Palamara]

Just now, Pat Speer said:

He doesn't really debunk Landis. He just expresses doubt. That's only natural. It's like two college buddies having a 70 year reunion, whereupon one "admits" he'd had sex with the other guy's girlfriend in the dorm when the other guy was sleeping. And the other guy says "Nope, you're dreaming!" 

HAHAHAHA!

Pat, what do you think about both Hill AND Landis choosing the exact same location for the JFK head wound? Also- even if the witnesses vary on whether it was LOWER rear of head or HIGHER rear of head, doesn't that still "say" that the back of the head was gone and/or the shot came from the front?

[James DiEugenio]

Vince:

i know you are on a jihad, that is evident.

But I really don't know what you mean. Even though you address to me.

The Landis bullet is not CE 399.

How could it be?  He may think so, and Daily Beast may think so but that is just damage control.

How could that bullet eject out of JBC's thigh, unprovoked, and into the back seat--which would be an incredible piece of reverse trajectory.  Einstein maybe could explain it but not Newton.

Secondly, Landis said he placed it on JFK's stretcher, not Connally's. Unless you buy Daily Beast and it bounced off Kennedy's stretcher, how does that relate to what the WC says happened with CE 399?

And BTW, it was not on Connally's stretcher it was on Ronnie Fuller's. 

Are you really saying that Lisa M.'s husband should be taken as gospel truth?

Edited September 14, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Vince Palamara]

24 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Vince:

i know you are on a jihad, that is evident.

But I really don't know what you mean. Even though you address to me.

The Landis bullet is not CE 399.

How could it be?  He may think so, and Daily Beast may think so but that is just damage control.

How could that bullet eject out of JBC's thigh, unprovoked, and into the back seat--which would be an incredible piece of reverse trajectory.  Einstein maybe could explain it but not Newton.

Secondly, Landis said he placed it on JFK's stretcher, not Connally's. Unless you buy Daily Beast and it bounced off Kennedy's stretcher, how does that relate to what the WC says happened with CE 399?

And BTW, it was not on Connally's stretcher it was on Ronnie Fuller's. 

Are you really saying that Lisa M.'s husband should be taken as gospel truth?

Hi, Jim! Oh, sorry about that- I really don't mean to come across as someone who is debunking Landis claim, per se. I am just posting a lot about it because a) it is fascinating b) it is my area of interest and c) Landis and/or the way the details are conveyed (by either himself or his co-author) seem to be all over the map. I am merely posting Blaine's book excerpt and Clint Hill's debunking Landis' claim as more grist for the mill. I myself do not necessarily endorse Landis or the debunkers.

To be honest, I am in the middle; sort of talking out of both sides of my mouth on this specific issue (I admit it). I certainly WANT to believe Landis; that is a given. That said, there are (seemingly) troubling anomalies and contradictions to the past accounts. I am working on another author's book chapter (pro conspiracy book) about this, collecting every bit of data (articles, links, photos, etc.) I can muster.

Landis is an enigma: his first two reports state that a shot came from the front (and he confirmed this to the HSCA in a very last-minute early 1979 outside contact "interview"), yet he changed his tune to Blaine in 2010 (unless Blaine/McCubbin editorially "massaged" the account to spin it their way...I am definitely an ardent critic of McCubbin, as you know)

He doesn't believe the single bullet theory (he came out in 2016 about this), yet he believes Oswald acted alone...or he doesn't know what to believe any longer.

ON CNN'S JAKE TAPPER JUST TODAY, he says the bullet was on an exam table, not the gurney/stretcher out in the hall...I am confused.

The AMAZON book hype definitely gives the impression that his book is an LHO-did-it book, talking about where "conspiracy theorists get it wrong," yet, by virtue of his own reports (plural), HE was one of the first conspiracy proponents!

The MEDIA book hype (numerous high-profile articles and tv appearances) give the impression that something is wrong in Denmark about the official story.

The bullet went from fragments to fragments and what sounds like CE399...but it wasn't CE399.

Landis book states he is the "final witness", but of course he is not-others spoke out and wrote books beforehand and several of these men and women are still among us (including Clint Hill, a good friend of Landis, who is now on the warpath---a real jihad---to debunk him).

You have to admit- it is fascinating and confusing.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Vince Palamara

[Vince Palamara]

26 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Vince:

i know you are on a jihad, that is evident.

But I really don't know what you mean. Even though you address to me.

The Landis bullet is not CE 399.

How could it be?  He may think so, and Daily Beast may think so but that is just damage control.

How could that bullet eject out of JBC's thigh, unprovoked, and into the back seat--which would be an incredible piece of reverse trajectory.  Einstein maybe could explain it but not Newton.

Secondly, Landis said he placed it on JFK's stretcher, not Connally's. Unless you buy Daily Beast and it bounced off Kennedy's stretcher, how does that relate to what the WC says happened with CE 399?

And BTW, it was not on Connally's stretcher it was on Ronnie Fuller's. 

Are you really saying that Lisa M.'s husband should be taken as gospel truth?

Another thing: unless I missed it and keep missing it, Landis doesn't mention his two reports and what they said (I am assuming he will in his book), but never seems to in interviews (unless I missed it somewhere [apart from the 2010 Blaine book]).

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Karl Kinaski said:

 Since we know that the back wound was the depth of half a finger only and had no connection with the throat wound - a fact which by it's own debunks the myth of one shooter only - I don't see the point of a lengthy discussion about a claim by an SS agent finding a bullet in the limo 60 years after the fact. 

BTW

V. Palamara showed SS Agents were lying through the years and had ever changing memories. 

I don't give a damn what Landis claims. 

 

KK

Oh come on! You are a little bit interested. Get on the bandwagon. Show some collegiality. 

And do we know for certain the JFK back wound was only a half-inch? Those were amateurs in the JFK autopsy room. 

Could have an experienced autopsist found the bullet path through more-expert probing?

Or...do muscle and organs shift sometimes, blocking the bullet path through a body? Meaning the bullet did course through the body, but the body should have been sectioned. 

I don't know. 

If Landis is telling the truth, and I suspect he is...then, a lot changes.

Also, what if Landis found a pointy-head bullet? I wish someone would ask him that. 

 

 

[Vince Palamara]

32 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Vince:

i know you are on a jihad, that is evident.

But I really don't know what you mean. Even though you address to me.

The Landis bullet is not CE 399.

How could it be?  He may think so, and Daily Beast may think so but that is just damage control.

How could that bullet eject out of JBC's thigh, unprovoked, and into the back seat--which would be an incredible piece of reverse trajectory.  Einstein maybe could explain it but not Newton.

Secondly, Landis said he placed it on JFK's stretcher, not Connally's. Unless you buy Daily Beast and it bounced off Kennedy's stretcher, how does that relate to what the WC says happened with CE 399?

And BTW, it was not on Connally's stretcher it was on Ronnie Fuller's. 

Are you really saying that Lisa M.'s husband should be taken as gospel truth?

I guess you can say I am floating between a DVP and VP stance on this specific issue (a whole bullet versus a fragment). That said, I put a lot of stock in his two Secret Service reports and his denouncement of the SBT; firm and established pre-2023 materials there. EDITED: also- his 2016 demonstration of the rear head wound-excellent

Edited September 14, 2023 by Vince Palamara

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Oh come on! You are a little bit interested. Get on the bandwagon. Show some collegiality. 

And do we know for certain the JFK back wound was only a half-inch? Those were amateurs in the JFK autopsy room. 

Finck wasn’t an amateur.

Sigh.  Another hobbyist attack on the root facts of the case.

[James DiEugenio]

Vince, I do not know what to think about Landis either.

In an upcoming anthology I am part of called The Chokeholds, I wrote about four paragraphs on him for the chapter on the Magic Bullet.

I couched what I said in the conditional.  

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

Isn't it obvious that Landis is simply trying to cash in on his "right there" JFKA security involvement story before it's too late to do so?

He or his publicist or book publisher sure knew how to get national media exposure for his story. 

The timing of this marketing blitz is another obvious give away. Just two months before a fairly important milestone anniversary of the event which will surely bring forth some JFKA news coverage and articles?

And if Landis didn't include some semi-bombshell bonus to the story ( I found a bullet on the top of the rear seat and placed it on JFK's gurney" what would he have?

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Finck wasn’t an amateur.

Sigh.  Another hobbyist attack on the root facts of the case.

Finck was a peacetime autopsist in Germany for a brief while.  

To your knowledge, did Finck perform a forensic pathological autopsy examination in his career? 

Was Finck constrained or limited in his examination at Bethesda, by superiors? 

Perhaps I am a hobbyist, but ad hominem arguments are not worth making. 

We do not know if Hume and Finck properly determined the bullet path, or lack of one, through the JFK body.

We know they tried, but for how long and how expertly? Could have an experienced autopsist found the bullet path? 

How about sectioning the body, which was not done (but likely would have probably shown conclusively the path of the bullet, or a lack of one). Do you think that was a shortcoming of the autopsy? 

As a self-credited expert, do you know if bullet paths are ever blocked by internally shifting muscles or organs after death? Have you ever interviewed an experienced autopsist in this regard? 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Finck was a peacetime autopsist in Germany for a brief while.  

To your knowledge, did Finck perform a forensic pathological autopsy examination in his career? 

He said he performed 200 autopsies.  

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Was Finck constrained or limited in his examination at Bethesda, by superiors? 

He wasn’t constrained from probing the wound.  Jenkins and O’Conner described a wound path that didn’t penetrate the pleura.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Perhaps I am a hobbyist, but ad hominem arguments are not worth making. 

Your “arguments” are formulaic — you automatically dismiss the evidence of a shallow back wound.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

We do not know if Hume and Finck properly determined the bullet path, or lack of one, through the JFK body.

Sure we do.  The wound was probed repeatedly.  There was no exit.  

Ben, I know your formula — which you will never get off of no matter how many facts contradict you — posits a magical mystery tour with a bullet striking at the level of T3 at a downward angle, then making a drastic change of direction striking the right T1 transverse process, then another magical tour ripping a couple inches of trachea and exiting below the Adam’s apple.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

We know they tried, but for how long and how expertly? Could have an experienced autopsist found the bullet path? 

Finck was an experienced autopsist, your smearing of the man aside.