Stanton and Sanders in the films

[Pat Speer]

While I am perfectly willing to believe Sarah Stanton is NOT Prayer Person, I am confused as heck as to where she can be seen standing in the films and photos. I have seen some place her several steps down from Frazier, along with the claim Pauline Sanders is standing next to her. But I believe those women were previously ID'ed as Madie Reese and Ruth Dean. Is there a photo showing Stanton, Sanders, Reese, and Dean? 

[Sean Coleman]

not sure how reliable this pic is, but it’s a good starting point?
 

 

 

The good lady herself. I hear she was big in Dallas.

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Sean Coleman

[Pat Speer]

Thanks, Sean. I didn't see a person at the C in Altgens. I thought it was the underside of Williams' arm in shadow. But now, looking at it, it could be the side of a woman's head. 

But why should we believe that is Stanton, who said she was on the top step, and had confirmation for this from Frazier and Sanders? 

P.S. I believe Greg Doudna has concluded Stanton and Sanders were both elsewhere. Is it correct to assume then that there is no consensus on the locations of the witnesses? I am trying to understand the state of the investigation. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Sandy Larsen]

@Pat Speer

Stanton and Sanders are the two women in the rear.

 

 

 

 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

@Pat Speer

Stanton and Sanders are the two women in the rear.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Sandy. I have started looking through Bart's book and was surprised to see he had them a few steps down from the top. That's okay. In fact it's good to know there's some disagreement among those intrigued by Prayer Man. 

[Jean Ceulemans]

14 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

not sure how reliable this pic is, but it’s a good starting point?
 

 

 

The good lady herself. I hear she was big in Dallas.

 

DELETED

Edited October 6, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Greg Doudna]

Comments on photo identifications

The identifications of D as Madie Reese, F as Billy Lovelady, and G as Carl Jones are solid (correct and no question). 

C is clearly mistakenly labeled. C is clearly Ruth Dean, as can be seen from striking match to a photo of Ruth Dean in a crowd photo later the same day with her distinctive black hat and black coat, see at the "Ruth Dean" page at Bart Kamp's site. C is therefore not Sarah Stanton because C is Ruth Dean, no question C is Ruth Dean.

The identification of E in Altgens6, "long necktie man", and E in Wiegman, as Shelley, I believe is wrong. The analysis to follow of the men and arms shading their eyes from the sun is a little less certain than the four identifications above but here is what I see there.

E in Altgens6 (long necktie man) is Joe Molina, who appears in Darnell as a man standing in the middle of that photo who is bald with hair at the side of his ear, heavyset. That man in Darnell must be Molina--from the bald top combined with hair at the ears matching Molina photos, plus heavyset, plus I am aware of no other identification of that man standing in Darnell, and that man is compatible in position with long necktie man in Altgens6. Therefore that man in Darnell who appears to be Molina is the heavyset long-necktie man in Altgens6 who also appears to be Molina. Molina said he left the steps after the shots to go in the direction of the Grassy Knoll, but Darnell has him still on the steps meaning he has not yet left the steps at the time of Darnell. A slight delay on Molina's part before leaving the steps may be indicated from Molina himself who said after the shots he looked around before leaving the steps.  

I do not believe E in Wiegman, a rather large and wide figure, is the same as labeled E in Altgens6 (long-necktie man Molina). I believe that large and wide figure, E in Wiegman, is the same as what I call Large-Framed Figure (LFF) of Darnell, the very wide-girthed figure standing at the top of the steps to the left of Buell Frazier. I believe that is clearly and decisively Sarah Stanton based on both physical appearance (Stanton being highly, not just a little, obese at the time), and exact match to where Frazier said Stanton was (immediately to his left and he spoke with her back and forth to his left), and further corroborated by Pauline Sanders located at the far east end who said Sarah Stanton was next to her on her right.

I conclude that not just Frazier but both Frazier and Large-Framed Figure, Sarah Stanton, to Frazier's left, are missing in Altgens6, because of the camera angle. They were on the top steps and would be off to the viewer's left of the visible figures in Altgens6 but do not appear in Altgens6. Neither of them are missing in the blackness in Altgens6, they are not in Altgens6 at all.

In Darnell what can look illusorily like a trace of the top of a necktie on Large-Framed Figure (Sarah Stanton) is actually the top of the head--dark hair--above the arm of the man in front of Stanton. Stanton is wearing a dress all of the same color up to her neckline, and there is no necktie on her. One can see another part of Sarah Stanton's dress--and her wide girth--from her left side showing below the raised right arm of the man in front of her in Darnell.

In Altgens6 there is a face behind ("beyond") both Lovelady and Molina from the perspective of the camera, just to the viewer's right of Lovelady's left ear. That very well may be Pauline Sanders at the east end of the top level, or one step below the top whichever it was, but she was against the east wall. 

I believe B is mistakenly labeled, and is not Otis Williams. Instead I believe A is Otis Williams. In Altgens6 A is against the east wall, and that agrees with where Otis Williams said he was: "I was standing on the top step against the railing on the east side of the steps in front of the building. I do not recall who was standing at either side of me but I do know that Mrs. Pauline Sanders ... viewed the motorcade" [his FBI statement, 3/19/64]).

Otis Williams as A in Altgens6 I interpret as has his neck and face up to about his mouth in the light, but from the mouth up the rest of his face cannot be seen because in shadow.  

B I believe is William Shelley, with his right elbow from his right arm shielding his eyes facing the camera of Altgens6, in front of (from perspective of camera of Altgens6, i.e. west of) Otis Williams, A. 

In some photos I believe I see a sliver of the left side of the face of Shelley, sort of even recognizable as Shelley, to the viewer's right of his right arm held up to his forehead.

Shelley is visible as B in both Altgens6 and Wiegman, but is not in Darnell because he and Lovelady had taken off running west, and have been identified running together in the Crouch film (one of the running figures in Crouch I see as distinctively looking like Lovelady which confirms the correctness of that to me). Neither Lovelady nor Shelley would be expected to be in Darnell, therefore, and neither are.

A final detail: in Altgens6 I believe there may be a part of the right side of the head of another person to the viewer's left of B, Shelley's, right arm. That person is behind (from the perspective of the Altgens6 camera, that is east of) B, Shelley, but in front of (that is, west of) A, Otis Williams. That part of a head cannot be the right side of Shelley's face because it is too high and too wide to be part of Shelley's head. Though the photos are too faint for any certainty, that left part of some figure's head looks dark and I wonder if that might possibly be the otherwise-unlocated African-American Roy Williams, with possibly darker color of skin and Afro hair there. But that is just conjecture, it could be someone else too.   

Edited October 6, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Pat Speer]

38 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Comments on photo identifications

The identifications of D as Madie Reese, F as Billy Lovelady, and G as Carl Jones are solid (correct and no question). 

C is clearly mistakenly labeled. C is clearly Ruth Dean, as can be seen from striking match to a photo of Ruth Dean in a crowd photo later the same day with her distinctive black hat and black coat, see at the "Ruth Dean" page at Bart Kamp's site. C is therefore not Sarah Stanton because C is Ruth Dean, no question C is Ruth Dean.

The identification of E in Altgens6, "long necktie man", and E in Wiegman, as Shelley, I believe is wrong. The analysis to follow of the men and arms shading their eyes from the sun is a little less certain than the four identifications above but here is what I see there.

E in Altgens6 (long necktie man) is Joe Molina, who appears in Darnell as a man standing in the middle of that photo who is bald with hair at the side of his ear, heavyset. That man in Darnell must be Molina--from the bald top combined with hair at the ears matching Molina photos, plus heavyset, plus I am aware of no other identification of that man standing in Darnell, and that man is compatible in position with long necktie man in Altgens6. Therefore that man in Darnell who appears to be Molina is the heavyset long-necktie man in Altgens6 who also appears to be Molina. Molina said he left the steps after the shots to go in the direction of the Grassy Knoll, but Darnell has him still on the steps meaning he has not yet left the steps at the time of Darnell. A slight delay on Molina's part before leaving the steps may be indicated from Molina himself who said after the shots he looked around before leaving the steps.  

I do not believe E in Wiegman, a rather large and wide figure, is the same as labeled E in Altgens6 (long-necktie man Molina). I believe that large and wide figure, E in Wiegman, is the same as what I call Large-Framed Figure (LFF) of Darnell, the very wide-girthed figure standing at the top of the steps to the left of Buell Frazier. I believe that is clearly and decisively Sarah Stanton based on both physical appearance (Stanton being highly, not just a little, obese at the time), and exact match to where Frazier said Stanton was (immediately to his left and he spoke with her back and forth to his left), and further corroborated by Pauline Sanders located at the far east end who said Sarah Stanton was next to her on her right.

I conclude that not just Frazier but both Frazier and Large-Framed Figure, Sarah Stanton, to Frazier's left, are missing in Altgens6, because of the camera angle. They were on the top steps and would be off to the viewer's left of the visible figures in Altgens6 but do not appear in Altgens6. Neither of them are missing in the blackness in Altgens6, they are not in Altgens6 at all.

In Darnell what can look illusorily like a trace of the top of a necktie on Large-Framed Figure (Sarah Stanton) is actually the top of the head--dark hair--above the arm of the man in front of Stanton. Stanton is wearing a dress all of the same color up to her neckline, and there is no necktie on her. One can see another part of Sarah Stanton's dress--and her wide girth--from her left side showing below the raised right arm of the man in front of her in Darnell.

In Altgens6 there is a face behind ("beyond") both Lovelady and Molina from the perspective of the camera, just to the viewer's right of Lovelady's left ear. That very well may be Pauline Sanders at the east end of the top level, or one step below the top whichever it was, but she was against the east wall. 

I believe B is mistakenly labeled, and is not Otis Williams. Instead I believe A is Otis Williams. In Altgens6 A is against the east wall, and that agrees with where Otis Williams said he was: "I was standing on the top step against the railing on the east side of the steps in front of the building. I do not recall who was standing at either side of me but I do know that Mrs. Pauline Sanders ... viewed the motorcade" [his FBI statement, 3/19/64]).

Otis Williams as A in Altgens6 I interpret as has his neck and face up to about his mouth in the light, but from the mouth up the rest of his face cannot be seen because in shadow.  

B I believe is William Shelley, with his right elbow from his right arm shielding his eyes facing the camera of Altgens6, in front of (from perspective of camera of Altgens6, i.e. west of) Otis Williams, A. 

In some photos I believe I see a sliver of the left side of the face of Shelley, sort of even recognizable as Shelley, to the viewer's right of his right arm held up to his forehead.

Shelley is visible as B in both Altgens6 and Wiegman, but is not in Darnell because he and Lovelady had taken off running west, and have been identified running together in the Crouch film (one of the running figures in Crouch I see as distinctively looking like Lovelady which confirms the correctness of that to me). Neither Lovelady nor Shelley would be expected to be in Darnell, therefore, and neither are.

A final detail: in Altgens6 I believe there may be a part of the right side of the head of another person to the viewer's left of B, Shelley's, right arm. That person is behind (from the perspective of the Altgens6 camera, that is east of) B, Shelley, but in front of (that is, west of) A, Otis Williams. That part of a head cannot be the right side of Shelley's face because it is too high and too wide to be part of Shelley's head. Though the photos are too faint for any certainty, that left part of some figure's head looks dark and I wonder if that might possibly be the otherwise-unlocated African-American Roy Williams, with possibly darker color of skin and Afro hair there. But that is just conjecture, it could be someone else too.   

So here's a third version, where Stanton is at the front of the top step. I naively thought there was a consensus on Stanton's location, and that I was missing something. That's fine, maybe it will get there. 

I envision, however, a "debate" or some such thing where CT A says "We know Prayer Person couldn't be any other TSBD employee because they have all been accounted for" and LN A counters with "Well, okay, where's Sarah Stanton?" CT A then points out where he/she thinks she was which then leads LN A to say "Interesting, because CT B says she was here and CT C says she was there. Why should we trust any of you?" 

Do you see what I'm getting at? It's a problem. To a skeptic, Prayer Person can only be Oswald once everyone else on the stairs has been eliminated, and not everyone else has been eliminated.

To be clear, I was looking through Bart's book and saw that he's eliminated Stanton by claiming she's down a couple of steps. Can we at least agree this was a mistake? 

 

[Greg Doudna]

1 minute ago, Pat Speer said:

So here's a third version, where Stanton is at the front of the top step. I naively thought there was a consensus on Stanton's location, and that I was missing something. That's fine, maybe it will get there. 

I envision, however, a "debate" or some such thing where CT A says "We know Prayer Person couldn't be any other TSBD employee because they have all been accounted for" and LN A counters with "Well, okay, where's Sarah Stanton?" CT A then points out where he/she thinks she was which then leads LN A to say "Interesting, because CT B says she was here and CT C says she was there. Why should we trust any of you?" 

Do you see what I'm getting at? It's a problem. To a skeptic, Prayer Person can only be Oswald once everyone else on the stairs has been eliminated, and not everyone else has been eliminated.

To be clear, I was looking through Bart's book and saw that he's eliminated Stanton by claiming she's down a couple of steps. Can we at least agree this was a mistake? 

Correct, there has been no consensus on Sarah Stanton's location, and to my knowledge my identification of Sarah Stanton as Large-Framed Figure to the left of Frazier in Darnell is (I find this hard to believe but it seems to be so) new. 

I believe Bart erred on his Sarah Stanton identification, yes.

And I believe Stancak is mistaken in supposing Sarah Stanton could be standing just behind Large-Framed Figure on the top level of the steps. That can be refuted now: First, the top landing was only 3'9" deep from the walls. I doubt that Saran Stanton of her size would be comfortable standing behind someone compressed into 3'9" total space, if it were not forced on her. Second, although Stancak sees some trace of something behind Large-Framed Figure I am not convinced it is anything. However I will defer to photo interpretation experts on that. If there is a human being behind LFF, I would be looking at someone like Roy Lewis behind Sarah Stanton, if anyone. And third, Large-Framed Figure herself as Sarah Stanton is right there, the elephant in the room (that is not meant as an unkind pun on Mrs. Stanton), the obvious identification of Sarah Stanton--looks like her, is one of the few if not only TSBD employee of a matching size to LFF, and is exactly where Buell Frazier said she was, immediately to his left.

Stancak has LFF as Shelley, but Shelley is established as having left the steps by Darnell, with Lovelady running west as verified in the Crouch film. 

The issue is not whether there is disagreement over where Sarah Stanton is, but which if any identification is actually correct. That goes to judgment of evidence, not anything else. 

[Pat Speer]

10 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Correct, there has been no consensus on Sarah Stanton's location, and to my knowledge my identification of Sarah Stanton as Large-Framed Figure to the left of Frazier in Darnell is (I find this hard to believe but it seems to be so) new. 

I believe Bart erred on his Sarah Stanton identification, yes.

And I believe Stancak is mistaken in supposing Sarah Stanton could be standing just behind Large-Framed Figure on the top level of the steps. That can be refuted now: First, the top landing was only 3'9" deep from the walls. I doubt that Saran Stanton of her size would be comfortable standing behind someone compressed into 3'9" total space, if it were not forced on her. Second, although Stancak sees some trace of something behind Large-Framed Figure I am not convinced it is anything. However I will defer to photo interpretation experts on that. If there is a human being behind LFF, I would be looking at someone like Roy Lewis behind Sarah Stanton, if anyone. And third, Large-Framed Figure herself as Sarah Stanton is right there, the elephant in the room (that is not meant as an unkind pun on Mrs. Stanton), the obvious identification of Sarah Stanton--looks like her, is one of the few if not only TSBD employee of a matching size to LFF, and is exactly where Buell Frazier said she was, immediately to his left.

Stancak has LFF as Shelley, but Shelley is established as having left the steps by Darnell, with Lovelady running west as verified in the Crouch film. 

The issue is not whether there is disagreement over where Sarah Stanton is, but which if any identification is actually correct. That goes to judgment of evidence, not anything else. 

Thanks. Can you show us LFF again? And from multiple angles? (Or is there only one angle?) 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Greg Doudna]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Thanks. Can you show us LFF again? And from multiple angles? (Or is there only one angle?) 

Pat I have trouble posting images, and I am only going from the standard Darnell and Wiegman photos which are commonly posted, can be found on "Google Images" search "JFK Prayer Man", or on Bart Kamp's site under "Wiegman", "Darnell", etc. LFF does not appear in Altgens6 because Altgens6 from the angle of that camera shows only a straight shot through to the NE corner and east wall (with depth perception illusion issues to the viewer, e.g. Lovelady). LFF does appear in Wiegman and most clearly in Darnell. The angles of Wiegman and Darnell are a little different but not too much.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Andrej Stancak]

9 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Pat I have trouble posting images, and I am only going from the standard Darnell and Wiegman photos which are commonly posted, can be found on "Google Images" search "JFK Prayer Man", or on Bart Kamp's site under "Wiegman", "Darnell", etc. LFF does not appear in Altgens6 because Altgens6 from the angle of that camera shows only a straight shot through to the NE corner and east wall (with depth perception illusion issues to the viewer, e.g. Lovelady). LFF does appear in Wiegman and most clearly in Darnell. The angles of Wiegman and Darnell are a little different but not too much.

Greg:

I am afraid you have it wrong on a few of essential figures in the doorway. Also, some assumtions you apply are false. I have explained my reasons for identification of different figures extensively over past few years, and see no reasons to rehash the content.

Please check my video: https://youtu.be/C0Hwt-cIGq4 and my previous posts. 

Pauline Sanders was where she told the FBI she was: in the east part of the doorway, close to the glass window. She cannot be seen in Altgens6 because her figure is masked by the figure of a man wearing dark suit and tie. Sanders can be seen in one frame of Darnell (shown in my video). I have made the height estimate using 3D modelling, and she indeed was tiny - 4'11''. This height estimate was verified by an independent method using a group photograph, discovered by Linda Zambanini. In that group photograph, Sanders's tip of the nose is about 2 inches below the avererage height of the level of tips of noses of all ladies. As the average body height of ladies of Sanders's age in was 5'2'' in 1963, her body estimate comes to about 5', close to my estimate of 4'11'. Sanders wore a specific dark hat both in the group photograph and in Darnell frame which also helps in her identification.

Sarah Stanton's location was on the top landing, and to the left of Wesley Frazier. He confirmed her location at least twice in interviews, also linked in my video. She was a huge lady, and she needed a large platform to stand on, not only an area of one step. She was tall (but she did not wear any 3-inch heels - verified by me in an email exchange with a family member) and had dense, light coloured hair. Unfortunately, as she stood at the back of the top landing and behind some other people, an area covered by shadow, none of the photographs shows enough of her figure. However, it is possible to infer on her presence from a light-coloured spot at the height of 5'7'' above the level of the top landing. Such a light-coloured blob can be seen both in Darnell and Wiegman, and some patches of her hair can also be seen in one version of Algens6 which shows enough details (shown in my video).

As per Bill Shelley, you are wrong assuming he could be  seen in Couch in front of the Depository within 30 seconds of the last shot. He clearly told in his testimony for the Warren Commission that he first, within the first minute or so, did not do anything (meaning he stayed where he was). As he continued standing on his spot, he was able to hear Gloria Calvary telling everyone in the doorway about the shooting (WC testimony). There is photgraphic evidence of Bill Shelley wearing a dark tie and suit on that day. As only one figure in dark suit and wearing a tie can be seen in the doorway, that should be him. Else, there should be two men with ties in the doorway (the proven Shelley's tie and the speculative Molina's tie), but only one man with a tie stands there. 

It took me a while to figure out that Sanders's hair can be seen behind Bill Shelley (the man in dark suit in the centre of the doorway), until Sander's photograph and reports of her body height were made public. With her thick blonde hair, Sanders (5'6'' - 5'7''), was taller than Bill Shelley (5'6'') and therefore, the white blob above the dark strip of Shelley's hair can be seen both in Darnell and Shelley.

I hope this helps.

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

[Greg Doudna]

Andrej, may I ask three questions?

(1) in Darnell there is a man standing between (viewer’s perspective) Prayer Man and Frazier, but lower. He appears balding but with hair around his ears, a little heavyset. Could you say who you think that man is? (And the match if any in Altgens6)

(2) I viewed your video again. I do not understand one thing. In the video you have the hair of Sarah Stanton behind Lovelady’s head but in front of the long necktie man, LNM (your Shelley). You say at one point that part of LNM’s head in back is interfered with or covered over a little by a part of Stanton behind Lovelady’s left ear but in front of LNM (your Shelley), indicating she is between Lovelady and LNM, in front of LNM, from the angle of the camera. But here in your post just now you speak of Stanton being behind LNM (your Shelley). I don’t understand— Is that a typo or is that a correction or change in your interpretation since the video was made?

7 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

It took me a while to figure out that Sanders's hair can be seen behind Bill Shelley (the man in dark suit in the centre of the doorway), until Sander's photograph and reports of her body height were made public. With her thick blonde hair, Sanders (5'6'' - 5'7''), was taller than Bill Shelley (5'6'') and therefore, the white blob above the dark strip of Shelley's hair can be seen both in Darnell and Shelley.

(3) In Darnell to the left of Frazier, viewer’s right, is a large-framed figure I call Large-Framed Figure, LFF (your Molina in your video). I agree if it were established that LFF is wearing a necktie that would rule out LFF being Sarah Stanton, a woman, but I am doubtful there is a necktie there (you refer to the necktie as speculative). Could you explain any other reasons, if so, why you regard LFF as ruled out (excluded) for being Sarah Stanton, who Frazier said was standing next to him to his left? Doesn’t the very size of LFF alone suggest Sarah Stanton? And LFF is where Frazier says she was, also where Pauline Sanders says she was (next to her to her right)?

Thanks, and thanks for all of your labor and work on these photos and analyses. 

[Andrej Stancak]

On 10/7/2023 at 4:38 PM, Greg Doudna said:

Andrej, may I ask three questions?

(1) in Darnell there is a man standing between (viewer’s perspective) Prayer Man and Frazier, but lower. He appears balding but with hair around his ears, a little heavyset. Could you say who you think that man is? (And the match if any in Altgens6)

(2) I viewed your video again. I do not understand one thing. In the video you have the hair of Sarah Stanton behind Lovelady’s head but in front of the long necktie man, LNM (your Shelley). You say at one point that part of LNM’s head in back is interfered with or covered over a little by a part of Stanton behind Lovelady’s left ear but in front of LNM (your Shelley), indicating she is between Lovelady and LNM, in front of LNM, from the angle of the camera. But here in your post just now you speak of Stanton being behind LNM (your Shelley). I don’t understand— Is that a typo or is that a correction or change in your interpretation since the video was made?

(3) In Darnell to the left of Frazier, viewer’s right, is a large-framed figure I call Large-Framed Figure, LFF (your Molina in your video). I agree if it were established that LFF is wearing a necktie that would rule out LFF being Sarah Stanton, a woman, but I am doubtful there is a necktie there (you refer to the necktie as speculative). Could you explain any other reasons, if so, why you regard LFF as ruled out (excluded) for being Sarah Stanton, who Frazier said was standing next to him to his left? Doesn’t the very size of LFF alone suggest Sarah Stanton? And LFF is where Frazier says she was, also where Pauline Sanders says she was (next to her to her right)?

Thanks, and thanks for all of your labor and work on these photos and analyses. 

Greg:

Ad 1): the man on a lower step in the western part of the doorway could be Billy Lovelady. Lovelady is seen stepping down in last frames of Wiegman, so he clearly had abandoned his spot on the 2nd step he occupied in Altgens6. Yet, he still was in the doorway territory in Darnell and the scene there appears to depict the moment when Gloria Calvery (the woman wearing a dark scarf and facing the steps) reached the steps and told the doorway occupants about the shooting. Both Lovelady and Shelley reported to have heard Gloria Calvery talking.

Ad 2): Sarah Stanton was in the space between Lovelady and Shelley in Altgens6. Pauline Sanders's figure cannot be seen in Altgens6 because she stood behind Shelley and was a tiny person. As far as Sarah Stanton's figure is concerned, her hair and nose fused with the contour of Lovelady's left face and especially the left chin. Lovelady's left chin appears broken in Altgens6; this visual effect is due to the foreshortening effect of the telephoto lens Altgens used to shoot this memorable picture. As a result of the foreshortening effect of the lens, the partial Stanton's face and Lovelady's face appear merged. Some people still believe that the damaged-like appearance of Lovelady's chin is a proof of photographic forgery made in Altgens6. 

It is a rare circumstance that almost nothing can be seen from the huge Stanton's figure in Altgens6. However, my model clearly shows that the small residuals of her figure appear at predicted spots in Altgens6, such as a bit of Stanton's right shoulder or curles of her thick hair and her nose. It is not possible to correctly attribute bits of a photograph to individuals we know have stood in the doorway unless a hypothesis-driven model is employed, allowing to test different solutions. Also, witness testimonies need to be taken into account to navigate the solutions.

Ad 3): I am not sure who the LFF is in your text. However, the centre of the doorway in Darnell shows a complicated blob which contains figures of three people: Sarah Stanton in the back (just in front of glass door), a person wearing dark suit (Shelley), and a man in white shirt (Ottis Williams). It may help to view this part of the doorway by adding the depth information in the bottom of this post. 

The other man in white shirt in the east part of the doorway in Darnell is the same man who is seen at about this spot in Altgens6. This person could be Joe Molina. In absence of a detailed photograph of him taken on that day it is difficult to identify him based on independent visual evidence. My identification rests on the method of elimination - Molina is the only man who we know stood on upper steps and that man in white shirt is the only man who could not be assigned to any other man (Lovelady, Frazier, Shelley). 

While I expressed my intention not to rehash the content, I admit I should have written an account on my findings which I will do in due course so that it can be easily checked and quoted. Thus, please find a couple of images with short comments to support my claims.

The image below supports the possibility that the white blob in Darnell could be Stanton's white (blonde) hair. The yellow dashed line shows the level of the top of her hair and how it intersects with Frazier's figure. Frazier's body height is known (6' - 6' 1/2''), and the anatomical relations of human head allow to estimate the height of the yellow dashed line. Below is the truncated image of Sarah Stanton standing next to her son Larry. Larry was of similar body height as Frazier - 6' or 6'1''. Thus, it is possible to predict from Stanton's family photograph where should the top of Stanton'slight-coloured hair be in Darnell relative to Frazier's head. Please note also, that the white blob in Darnell has a dark bottom - it "sits" on dark hair of a shorter person standing in front of her - Bill shelley. Shelley's dark tie appears as a dark triangle on white shirt. 

     

 

Here is a depth separation of Stanton, Shelley and Williams figures in Darnell. It would be nice to see more details than Darnell offers, however, this is what we have at the moment. 

 

Finally, I made an estimate of Stanton' location based on testimonies of doorway occupants. Each person's location is indicated by footprints and the circle surrounding each person's location would be his/her personal space in which people they reported should be found. The only apriori assumption was that their personal space (circle) would encompass the top platform- up to the glass door. The most probable location where Stanton could stand if all witnesses told the truth of who was around them was the dark-shaded area on top landing close to the glass door. In Altgens6, Stanton was in the front of this area, In Darnell and Wiegman she slipped back to the glass door.

 

SS = Sarah Stanton, BL = Billy Lovelady, BWF = Buell Wesley Frazier, OW = Otis Williams (no circle around him), BS = Bill Shelley, PS = Pauline Sanders, JM = Joe Molina (no circle around him), PM = Prayer Man (no circle around that person)

I hope this helps.

[Greg Doudna]

Thank you Andrej. Is it possible what I have been seeing and calling “Large-Framed Figure” in Darnell to Frazier’s left, who looks very broad-shouldered and big, is some misunderstanding of two persons not one (not counting another, a man, in front of her/him/them)? That is what you have been suggesting. Maybe so. In any case you have Sarah Stanton there in that location, in agreement with Frazier who said she was to his left.

I do see now one other thing you are saying. If that middle perpendicular vertical line in the background of Altgens6 is the NE corner of the TSBD doorway entrance, the traces of a person beyond and mostly blocked by Lovelady cannot (for line of sight reasons) be the Pauline Sanders figure you identified (convincingly and correctly to me) standing at the east end at the top level in Darnell in agreement with where Pauline Sanders said she was. Therefore it is extremely sensible in terms of expected position that the traces of a person behind/beyond Lovelady in Altgens6 would be Sarah Stanton, as you argue.