In Oak Cliff: one shooter, one accomplice, no automatic, no Oswald

[Michael Kalin]

@Ron Bulman Cavernous indeed -- see attached aerial of the ALT taken a few years before it was torn down.

 

@Greg Doudna You may be right, seems like Ball was pushing things along, giving Guinyard the bum's rush. The schedule was busy, but that does not excuse his appalling penchant for asking leading questions.

[Michael Kalin]

The search for additional evidence continues, leading to an interesting item from Professor Pulte's East Tenth Street Irregulars concerning a Mrs. Slider. Here's an excerpt from a Pulte email:

Quote

A Mrs. Slider had lunch from 12:30-1:30 on Nov. 22, 1963. She worked at the phone company and went home for lunch each day. On Nov. 22 she got back to her parking area early, perhaps as early as 1:10. She parked, for a monthly fee, on the lot behind the Texaco station, well known to researchers as the location where the white jacket was found.

The lot behind the station (north of the station) was owned by the Texaco station owner. It was just south of the east-west alley running between and parallel to, Jefferson and 10th. The block in question is the one west of Patton and east of Crawford.

Mrs. Slider had pulled into the lot from Crawford and parked facing north, i.e. facing the alley and the rear of the Abundant Life Temple. She was accustomed to leaving her car about 1:25, to get back to her place of work by 1:30. Seeing that she had gotten back earlier than usual, she began to read a book. A moment or so later, she was startled to see a man running down the alley westward toward Crawford; the man was running at top speed.

Recall that she had parked facing north toward the alley and the church complex just north of the alley. The man slowed down for a second to "shed his jacket" according to Mrs. Slider. After removing the jacket, which he dropped in the alley, she saw that the man was wearing a T-shirt, not the tan shirt Lee Oswald was wearing when arrested in the Texas Theater.

Racing past her, the man turned right (north) at Crawford and she lost sight of him. About two minutes later, she saw six or seven men running in the same direction; some were uniformed, some were not. Some had hand guns, some had "long guns." This group of men also turned right and were lost from sight.
Tippit 1.pdf [12-13]

This meshes fairly well with the proposed ALT scenario until the "six or seven men running in the same direction" show up only two minutes later, either too soon or too many or both.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Michael Kalin

[Bill Brown]

On 10/8/2023 at 11:01 PM, Greg Doudna said:

Donald W., with one exception I'll let your responses stand as the last word and not pursue this further other than to say I stand by mine. The one point that does call for correction is this, where you say:

AND YOU YOURSELF HAVE OFFICER POE LYING ABOUT BENAVIDES TELLING HIM THAT HE SAW THE PERP RELOADING THE GUN AS HE RAN ACROSS THE CHURCH LAWN, A STATEMENT MADE ON THE DAY OF THE EVENT, NOT SEVERAL MONTHS LATER.

No I do not have officer Poe lying at all. I said, "The expected word modifying the lawn where Benavides found the hulls is “corner” lawn, not “church” lawn. This is well explained as an error from handwritten notes improperly transcribed."

There is a big difference between a mistake on the level of a miscopying, and "lying". Lying involves two elements: it is not simply saying something untruthful, but willfully doing so, consciously knowing it is untruthful. There must be intent, for any given untruth to be an act of "lying" as opposed to misspeaking by mistake not intentionally.

From the little I have read of Poe, such as the interview of Poe in Henry Hurt, Reasonable Doubt, Poe seems to have been a decent and honest officer. He did not backtrack dishonestly in his later accounts telling of the hulls abandoned in the yard of the Davis sisters-in-law corner house. I believe he spoke truthfully of the events of that day to the best of his ability. The reason he never spoke again of a "church" lawn is because that was a mistake from handwritten "corner" lawn. 

Mr. BELIN - You heard the shot and pulled in and then what? 
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I ducked down. 
Mr. BELIN - Then what happened? 
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I heard the other two shots and I looked up and the Policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell. 
Mr. BELIN - Did you see the Policeman as he fell? 
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BELIN - What else did you see? 
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner. 
Mr. BELIN - You saw the man going around the corner headed in what direction on what street? 
Mr. BENAVIDES - On Patton Street. He was going south. 

Mr. BALL. And what happened after that? 
Mr. POE. I talked to a Spanish man, but I don't remember his name. Dominique, I believe. 
Mr. BALL. Domingo Benavides? 
Mr. POE. I believe that is correct; yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. What did he tell you? 
Mr. POE. He told me, give me the same, or similar description of the man, and told me he was running out across this lawn. He was unloading his pistol as he ran, and he picked the shells up. 
Mr. BALL. Domingo told you who was running across the lawn? 
Mr. POE. A man, white man. 
Mr. BALL. What was he doing? 
Mr. POE. He was unloading his pistol as he run. 
Mr. BALL. And what did he say? 
Mr. POE. He said he picked the two hulls up. 
Mr. BALL. Did he hand you the hulls? 
Mr. POE. Yes, sir.  

A last point: Acquilla Clemons spoke of the gunman and a second person shouting and gesturing to each other going in opposite directions, true, but she never had that second person with a second gun, i.e. a second gunman. And the story sounds suspiciously to me like Acquilla Clemons witnessing the known exchange between Callaway and the gunman on Patton--the shouting at each other, the gesturing, the physical descriptions of the two, Acquilla's hearing of one shouting to the other "go on!" compared to the last two words of Callaway shouting "what the hell's going on?", the two going in opposite directions, and Acquilla Clemons' vantage point standing at the NW corner of Tenth and Patton having line of sight south on Patton (that detail of where Acquilla Clemons was standing from witness Mary Little, newly reported by Myers in 2020 (https://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2020/11/emory-austin-his-daughter-mary-and.html), although Bill Brown has objected to me that the Callaway/gunman exchange occurred too far south on Patton for Acquilla Clemons to have seen it. 

 

"...although Bill Brown has objected to me that the Callaway/gunman exchange occurred too far south on Patton for Acquilla Clemons to have seen it."

 

No.

 

You're misrepresenting what I did say.

 

I said the exchange between Callaway and the fleeing killer took place too far down Patton (three-fourths of the way to Jefferson, from Tenth) for it to be the exchange described by Clemons, who said the exchange took place on Tenth.

 

[Greg Doudna]

8 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

"...although Bill Brown has objected to me that the Callaway/gunman exchange occurred too far south on Patton for Acquilla Clemons to have seen it."

No.

You're misrepresenting what I did say.

I said the exchange between Callaway and the fleeing killer took place too far down Patton (three-fourths of the way to Jefferson, from Tenth) for it to be the exchange described by Clemons, who said the exchange took place on Tenth.

I have corrected that to read “heard” instead of “seen”. You argued the distance of 300 feet from Acquilla Clemons’ position made it not credible that Acquilla Clemons could have heard the final syllables of Callaway telling he shouted across Patton to the gunman, “what the hell’s going ON??!!” when Acquilla Clemons told of hearing one shout across to the other, “go ON!!”. 

In fact I thought the point on the distance was a fair point and meant to acknowledge you for the point.

You did not claim inability of Acquilla to see 300 feet, but did claim inability of Acquilla to have heard the shouted words at 300 feet, about the length of a football field. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Donald Willis]

On 10/10/2023 at 4:54 PM, Michael Kalin said:

Bowley may have forgotten seeing Callaway at the scene taking the gun and commandeering the cab, but Harold Russell saw someone do exactly that.

Ambulance driver Butler also witnessed Tippit's gun at the murder scene, but left before the cab was commandeered.

There's also Guinyard's WC testimony that he saw Benavides arrive in his truck at the murder scene, not easily dismissed because it wasn't his idea. Ball led him into the affirmation.

The challenge is to devise a sequence of events that has Scoggins chasing someone (either the killer or Benavides) on foot all the way to the Abundant Life Temple with Scoggins & Benavides both returning prior to Bowley's arrival.

Something like this -- 1) Tippit is killed; 2) Scoggins grabs Tippit's gun and follows the killer toward ALT; 3) Benavides pulls himself together and drives his truck in the same direction; 4) The killer easily outruns old Scoggins, pausing on the front lawn of ALT to reload his gun; 5) Benavides pulls up at ALT; 6) The killer sees him coming and ducks into the cavernous temple; 7) Scoggins arrives with Tippit's gun; 8} Scoggins & Benavides discuss matters and return to the murder scene just before Bowley arrives; 9) Scoggins returns and places the gun on the front seat of Tippit's squad car; and 10) Benavides mashes the radio in #10.

Problem -- nobody reports anything like this happening, possible exception Guinyard but he said Benavides "came up from the east side---going west."

Or--Benavides & Scoggins briefly  discussed matters right at the intersection.  Benavides then headed right out, down 10th, in pursuit, while Scoggins went to get Tippit's pistol, and was seen by the Davises & Mrs M running into the alley.

[David Josephs]

On 10/10/2023 at 4:14 PM, Donald Willis said:

Good  points on the Poe-Jez report.  And I had forgotten Bowley's reference to the shooter running west on 10th toward the church.  Oddly enough, Mrs Markham's original affidavit echoes that reference:  "I screamed and the man ran west on E. 10th St. across Patton  & went out of sight."

Not too sure if direction and what people say can be overly reliable given this.

"87" was the man Dispatch ordered into Oak Cliff with Tippit, but it doesn't seem he followed any orders as he never was actually in that area.

This is the only incident of the word "North" in the transcripts.  This has no source and no reasoning for the reply to Nelson.

fwiw

[Donald Willis]

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Not too sure if direction and what people say can be overly reliable given this.

"87" was the man Dispatch ordered into Oak Cliff with Tippit, but it doesn't seem he followed any orders as he never was actually in that area.

This is the only incident of the word "North" in the transcripts.  This has no source and no reasoning for the reply to Nelson.

fwiw

I can't even guess who would have said "Running north on Patton".  At 1:44 or any time.  And a propos your other post, who or what is H&L?  Perhaps the dispatcher  meant "south"???  Dunno.

[Michael Kalin]

22 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

Or--Benavides & Scoggins briefly  discussed matters right at the intersection.  Benavides then headed right out, down 10th, in pursuit, while Scoggins went to get Tippit's pistol, and was seen by the Davises & Mrs M running into the alley.

For this to work Frank Cimino's FBI statement must be arbitrarily rewritten to take out his observation that Tippit's "gun was out of the holster and lying by his side" that occurred after Mrs. Markham "advised a man had just shot a police officer and stated he had run west on Tenth Street and pointed in the direction of an alley which runs between Tenth Street and Jefferson off Patton Street."

It's a persistently vexing issue as to who sees (or should be seeing) someone else, difficult to work out in a coherent fashion, often disregarded altogether. In this case the gun is the critical prop. It must return before Bowley's arrival at the squad car. Moving on wheels takes little time, and there's a possible side effect that witness observations of vehicular traffic may be even more erratic than pedestrian activity, perhaps due to the speed factor.

An exception is Benavides' red Ford. It was originally reported in his 11/22/63 FBI statement, and appears as a coda to his WC testimony.

Quote

Mr. BELIN - Anything else?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; I guess that is all I can think of right now.
I think there was another car that was in front of me, a red Ford, I believe. I didn't know the man, but I guess he was about 25 or 30, and he pulled over. I didn't never see him get out of his car, but when he heard the scare, I guess he was about six cars from them, and he pulled over, and I don't know if he came back there or not.
Mr. BELIN - Anything else?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That would be all. I think if anybody had seen anything really closeup, that he must have fired just as they got past him, and they must have seen him standing there, because he was right directly in front of me. And whenever you see a squad car parked like that, you think something is wrong. At least that is what comes to my mind.
6H453

HSCA's Moriarty used it as a springboard to launch Tatum, but his story always lacked credibility. So who drove the red Ford and what was the nature of his involvement? Tough questions.

[Michael Kalin]

On 10/7/2023 at 9:30 PM, Donald Willis said:

And for Mrs M to have thought that Scoggins was the killer, she must have--as I've already suggested--got to the Tippit scene a bit later than she testified that she did.  Late enough so that the first thing she saw, maybe, was Scoggins looking in the car window to see what he could see, then going to the street in front of the cab and picking up Tippit's pistol.  By then, Benavides would already have been going up the alley.

This delay of Markham's arrival at the murder scene may provide the necessary leeway to accommodate the removal & return of Tippit's service revolver prior to Cimino's arrival at the scene. Perhaps the killer saw Benavides in pursuit which is why he stopped to reload his gun at the ALT. Benavides, seeing this from a safe distance, also observed the red Ford proceeding west on 10th toward the intersection with Crawford. By the time Scoggins caught up the killer was no longer in sight, a distinct possibility that he had been picked up by the Ford.

If this was so, that the killer escaped in the Ford, it explains why Scoggins & Benavides quickly returned to the scene, just before Cimino popped out of 405 E. 10th St. The question remains as to why Cimino saw Markham & the gun but neither Benavides nor Scoggins. Nothing new about this. It's exactly the same question the standard scenario begs but does not answer.

An escape by car also rendered the subsequent belated cab chase hopeless, but that's another matter. It never made sense.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Michael Kalin

[Donald Willis]

On 10/16/2023 at 8:21 AM, Michael Kalin said:

This delay of Markham's arrival at the murder scene may provide the necessary leeway to accommodate the removal & return of Tippit's service revolver prior to Cimino's arrival at the scene.

JUST NOTICED AGAIN (THAT IS, NOT FOR THE FIRST TIME) THAT CIMINO'S FBI REPORT DOESN'T TALLY WITH MRS. M'S STORY.  SHE WAS YELLING, SHE TESTIFIES, "CALL THE COPS!" FROM THE INTERSECTION--OR THE DAVISES SAID SHE WAS.  AND HER POINTING TO THE ALLEY WOULD MAKE A LITTLE MORE SENSE IF HE CAME TO HER, THERE, AT 10TH & PATTON.  THAT IS, HE COULD HAVE SEEN MORE CLEARLY EXACTLY WHERE SHE WAS POINTING.  LINE OF SIGHT.  

BUT I'M THINKING THAT MAYBE YOU WERE RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.  UNLIKELY THAT SCOGGINS COULD HAVE PICKED UP THE PISTOL AND RETURNED IT WITHOUT BEING SEEN.  GUESS I'LL HAVE TO REVISE MY NARRATIVE A BIT.  MAYBE HE DID HIS FOOT CHASE WITHOUT THE PISTOL.  THANK YOU.  A BIT CLOSER TO THE TRUTH.  HARD TO DETERMINE THE LATTER WITHOUT BENAVIDES' AFFIDAVIT & FBI REPORT OF 11/22.

Perhaps the killer saw Benavides in pursuit which is why he stopped to reload his gun at the ALT. Benavides, seeing this from a safe distance, also observed the red Ford proceeding west on 10th toward the intersection with Crawford. By the time Scoggins caught up the killer was no longer in sight, a distinct possibility that he had been picked up by the Ford.

THAT WOULD EXPLAIN WHY BENAVIDES LOST TRACK OF HIM OR SAW HIM GET INTO THE CAR.  INVOLVMENT OF A CAR *AWAY* FROM THE SCENE MAKES MORE SENSE THAN TWO PERPS *AT* THE SCENE.

On 10/16/2023 at 8:21 AM, Michael Kalin said:

If this was so, that the killer escaped in the Ford, it explains why Scoggins & Benavides quickly returned to the scene, just before Cimino popped out of 405 E. 10th St. The question remains as to why Cimino saw Markham & the gun but neither Benavides nor Scoggins. Nothing new about this. It's exactly the same question the standard scenario begs but does not answer.

SPEAKING OF NOT SEEING--WHY DIDN'T MRS. M SEE (a) SCOGGINS KITTY KORNER FROM HER AND (b) THE DAVISES AT THE SIDE DOOR?

An escape by car also rendered the subsequent belated cab chase hopeless, but that's another matter. It never made sense.

AGREED--"HOT PUSUIT" 5 MINUTES LATER?  I THINK IT DOES MAKE A BIT MORE SENSE IF SCOGGINS HAS, IN THE MEANTIME, CHASED THE GUY ON FOOT.  

[Donald Willis]

On 10/19/2023 at 6:21 PM, Donald Willis said:

THAT WOULD EXPLAIN WHY BENAVIDES LOST TRACK OF HIM OR SAW HIM GET INTO THE CAR.  INVOLVMENT OF A CAR *AWAY* FROM THE SCENE MAKES MORE SENSE THAN TWO PERPS *AT* THE SCENE.

AGREED--"HOT PUSUIT" 5 MINUTES LATER?  I THINK IT DOES MAKE A BIT MORE SENSE IF SCOGGINS HAS, IN THE MEANTIME, CHASED THE GUY ON FOOT.  

Belatedly, I realized that the reason Jack Tatum was introduced, belatedly, to the Tippit story, must have been to account for the red Ford, to "neutralize" it.  Tatum's Jackie-Come-Lately tale makes it sound as if, yes, the driver of the Ford (not Tatum, apparently) picked up the killer somewhere around the temple.  Speculation, but tantalizing...

[Michael Kalin]

A week before leading Guinyard into confirming that he had witnessed Benavides' arrival by pickup, Ball tried the same ploy with Markham, who had run "over to where the police officer was lying in the street."

Quote

Mr. BALL. Did some man come up immediately thereafter?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a car did he have?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Not immediately.
Mr. BALL. Soon?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Soon.
Mr. BALL. In a pickup truck?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I very frankly remembered this truck, but I remember it the way it took off.
Mr. BALL. He stopped though, didn't he?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That is the man who called over the police radio, wasn't he?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall.
Mr. BALL. What did he look like, the man in the pickup truck?
Mrs. MARKHAM. This man had a hat on. I thought he was a policeman.
Mr. BALL. A dark man, looked somewhat Spanish?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. I was screaming and crying and trying to get help, begging for somebody to help me.
[3H320]
3/26/64

Every leading question utterly defeated, the significant information Ball succeeded in extracting from the witness relative to the pickup was that she could "remember it the way it took off."

But what gives with the script? What page was Ball on that he expected witnesses to observe Benavides' arrival after the shooting, and where was Markham's placeholder?

It suggests that the script's original draft had Benavides arriving relatively late at the scene by pickup, but, between Guinyard's & Benavides' WC sessions the same day (4/2/64) in Dallas, the latter put the scriptwriters (suborners) on notice that he would not play Ball. The strange interlude in the alley superseded the belated arrival, and Belin made no effort to lead Benavides in another direction.

Markham's inability to follow directions becomes something of a serendipity, allowing pieces of truth to slip into view through the cracks in the official story, such as the pickup taking off, clearly not what Ball expected. The upshot is that Benavides attempted to follow the Ford on wheels, but must have quickly returned to the scene. Perhaps he had been heading on foot toward the ALT and lost valuable time when it became necessary to double back to get the truck. By then the Ford was gone.

Possibly more to say about Ball's leads & Markham's divagations at some point, probably in the two witnesses thread.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Michael Kalin

[Michael Kalin]

Carrying through in this thread, Markham's description of the man in the pickup truck -- she thought "he had a hat on" and "was a policeman" -- may raise a few eyebrows at first glance. But there's a solid candidate at the scene who wore the requisite hat -- Scoggins. Attached is a photo from Jack Myers' article at Kennedys & King, "Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer."

The implication is Scoggins grabbed Tippit's gun and joined Benavides in his truck in pursuit of the actual killer at some point soon after the murder. This is not described in his numerous DPD/FBI/SS statements & WC testimony, but evaluation is hampered by continual references to supporting documents that do not exist. At least I can't find them. All relate to the cab company that employed Scoggins, known as either City Transportation Company of Dallas or Oak Cliff Cab Company. The latter may be a subsidiary of the former.

Missing cab company records/documents:

1. radio log
2. phone log
3. witness statement
4. trip manifest

Note: Whaley's trip manifest was furnished to the FBI. Why not Scoggins'?

[Donald Willis]

Very tantalizing.  Both Scoggins and Benavides chased after the killer, almost immediately, either together or separately.  But why would Mrs. M remember Scoggins, but not Benavides.  Distinctive hat maybe?

[David Josephs]

On 10/14/2023 at 12:07 PM, Donald Willis said:

I can't even guess who would have said "Running north on Patton".  At 1:44 or any time.  And a propos your other post, who or what is H&L?  Perhaps the dispatcher  meant "south"???  Dunno.

H&L is John Armstrong's "Harvey and Lee" Don.  A wealth of research