Should the Babushka Lady have been suspected as a possible gunman in the JFK assassination?

[Paul Brancato]

3 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

For those who decide to dig into these claims, the good news is that the history, including work history, of Jerri Cobb of aviation and potential astronaut fame is well known, very public and well documented.  That should give a good baseline for checking out the claims and proposition in the book:

https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=CO010

https://medium.com/the-vintage-space/was-jerrie-cobbs-first-female-astronaut-good-girl-image-an-act-877c94428c55

https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/remembering-geraldyn-jerrie-cobb-pioneering-woman-aviator

The final article listed has her buying an Aero Commander in 1963 but instead of Dallas flying it into the Amazon as a missionary pilot.

So in this instance we have an individual who has a substantial public record for reference, not to mention prior historical studies and research on her life -  contained in numerous other books.

 

 

 

Jim says ‘good one’, and thanks Larry. Thanks for what Jim? For saying Jerrie Cobb couldn’t have flown the plane into red bird airport on Nov 22, 1963 because she was busy doing missionary work in the Amazon? 

[James DiEugenio]

Please Paul, that is not like you.

DId anyone else here dig up this info on Jerri and tell us just how large a figure she was in aviation history?

That is what I am thanking him for.

[Miles Massicotte]

Babushka lady's "camera" (image taken from this link) 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Miles Massicotte

[Mike Aitken]

Any firearm capable of inflicting a life-threatening or lethal injury from the distance of the Babushka Lady to JFK would have had enough recoil to cause her to move noticeably.  This includes pistol rounds, e.g. 9mm, 40S&W, etc.  I recommend that anyone who believes that the limousine driver, the Babushka Lady, etc. fired at the President from close range and in full view of the spectators, go to a range and try shooting some firearms.  Firearms are extremely loud and have lots of recoil.  Silenced/suppressed firearms reduce the speed of the bullet, thereby negatively effecting the damage inflicted by the bullet.

Additionally, for nearly anyone but the most advanced shooters, shooting a firearm from below eye level, the result is going to be a potshot. Also, firearms are extremely loud, and even “silenced” (suppressed) shots are very loud.  To me it’s inconceivable that the Babushka Lady fired off any rounds during the event.

Also, I’ve dealt with homicide scenes, including multiple incidents where an individual was shot in the head from close distance with a handgun.  None of the shots caused anything close to the damage that was inflicted to Kennedy’s head.  In my opinion, again, this eliminates the possibility of anyone firing the headshot with a pistol round, including the Babushka Lady or any of the Secret Service agents in the Presidential limousine.  The only time I’ve seen a victim with a head injury that even came close to the injury suffered by Kennedy, the individual was shot in the head with a high velocity rifle round.

[Greg Doudna]

8 hours ago, Mike Aitken said:

Any firearm capable of inflicting a life-threatening or lethal injury from the distance of the Babushka Lady to JFK would have had enough recoil to cause her to move noticeably.  This includes pistol rounds, e.g. 9mm, 40S&W, etc.  I recommend that anyone who believes that the limousine driver, the Babushka Lady, etc. fired at the President from close range and in full view of the spectators, go to a range and try shooting some firearms.  Firearms are extremely loud and have lots of recoil.  Silenced/suppressed firearms reduce the speed of the bullet, thereby negatively effecting the damage inflicted by the bullet.

Additionally, for nearly anyone but the most advanced shooters, shooting a firearm from below eye level, the result is going to be a potshot. Also, firearms are extremely loud, and even “silenced” (suppressed) shots are very loud.  To me it’s inconceivable that the Babushka Lady fired off any rounds during the event.

Also, I’ve dealt with homicide scenes, including multiple incidents where an individual was shot in the head from close distance with a handgun.  None of the shots caused anything close to the damage that was inflicted to Kennedy’s head.  In my opinion, again, this eliminates the possibility of anyone firing the headshot with a pistol round, including the Babushka Lady or any of the Secret Service agents in the Presidential limousine.  The only time I’ve seen a victim with a head injury that even came close to the injury suffered by Kennedy, the individual was shot in the head with a high velocity rifle round.

Thanks for this Mike A., good comments, appreciated.

But take a look at this: the PSS silent pistol developed by the Soviet Union around 1980 "to give Soviet special forces and secret police an almost completely silent option for covert options such as reconnaissance and assassinations". Its size is 6-1/2 inches length. Range 25 meters (82 feet). It may be right that Babushka's camera was after all only a camera, but is it excluded that there could have been an assassination weapon like the PSS silent pistol there? Granting your point that it would not produce the major gaping head wound of Z313, could it have produced a different JFK wound (or missed)? There does remain the issue you note of the sound it would make. A figure of 122 decibels is cited in the second article below for the PSS, "on a par with simple airguns and suppressed .22 LR rifles", which does not seem silent enough to me not to have been heard by those standing nearby. Either it must be supposed some technology on the US side could do better (the argument against that would be if there was, it would be known by now), or that the sound was disguised by accident or intent by some other simultaneous sound from somewhere else so as to have been unnoticed by the three or four persons within several feet of Babushka. This is not intended to be a positive argument or claim that that happened, but a question of whether that was and is rightly excluded as a possibility.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSS_silent_pistol 

Technical discussion on how the PSS pistol worked:

https://sadefensejournal.com/functioning-of-the-soviet-pss-pistol-with-sp4-captive-piston-aummunition/

[Paul Brancato]

11 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Please Paul, that is not like you.

DId anyone else here dig up this info on Jerri and tell us just how large a figure she was in aviation history?

That is what I am thanking him for.

Sorry Jim. My point was that the articles Larry posted do not in any way justify his statement at the end where he says Jerrie flew her plane to the Amazon when she was supposedly at Redbird airport. The book goes into great detail about Jerrie’s known history including her work in the Amazon. He could have recommended the book just on that basis. The author met Jerrie Cobb because she intended to make a film centered on her aviation career. One of the articles that Larry linked specifically mentions John Glenn, but fails to mention Glenn’s direct and vocal opposition to the idea of female astronauts. I don’t find Larry’s post helpful, I find it misleading. 

How about some of you here engaged in this discussion read the book, available in hardcover and also in Kindle. There is even a summary version of it for download. 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Paul Brancato

[James DiEugenio]

Paul:

I will eventually read the book, but I have about three ahead of this one that people have sent me.

Jim D

[Larry Hancock]

Paul,  I posted the links as background and context, the remark about the plane and flying to the Amazon was not my statement, rather it was from one of the articles I mentioned.  I did not offer an evaluation of the book, simply gave some references for those who are interested in beginning their studies of it.

Hopefully anyone reading the book will do the background work to bring it into context and attempt to corroborate it  - or not. Fortunately in this instance there is a great deal of that background readily available.

[Paul Brancato]

I’ll look forward to hearing from Larry and Jim after they’ve read the book, which has two threads going, both of which I find troubling.
I start from one premise that should be completely obvious. There is no way that June and Jerrie Cobb did not know each other, if their respective bios are truthful. Jerrie denied that she knew June. Did June do the same? Is there someone here that can answer this? 
I can’t help but wonder about two Oswalds now.

[Robert Reeves]

On 11/25/2023 at 6:49 AM, Mike Aitken said:

Any firearm capable of inflicting a life-threatening or lethal injury from the distance of the Babushka Lady to JFK would have had enough recoil to cause her to move noticeably.  This includes pistol rounds, e.g. 9mm, 40S&W, etc.  I recommend that anyone who believes that the limousine driver, the Babushka Lady, etc. fired at the President from close range and in full view of the spectators, go to a range and try shooting some firearms.  Firearms are extremely loud and have lots of recoil.  Silenced/suppressed firearms reduce the speed of the bullet, thereby negatively effecting the damage inflicted by the bullet.

Additionally, for nearly anyone but the most advanced shooters, shooting a firearm from below eye level, the result is going to be a potshot. Also, firearms are extremely loud, and even “silenced” (suppressed) shots are very loud.  To me it’s inconceivable that the Babushka Lady fired off any rounds during the event.

Also, I’ve dealt with homicide scenes, including multiple incidents where an individual was shot in the head from close distance with a handgun.  None of the shots caused anything close to the damage that was inflicted to Kennedy’s head.  In my opinion, again, this eliminates the possibility of anyone firing the headshot with a pistol round, including the Babushka Lady or any of the Secret Service agents in the Presidential limousine.  The only time I’ve seen a victim with a head injury that even came close to the injury suffered by Kennedy, the individual was shot in the head with a high velocity rifle round.

But we don't know the CIA's TSD 1963 weapons inventory!

There are glimpses, below, taken from the CIA's own museum. I'm guessing late 50's or 60's design?

 

A .22 cal 

Col. Fletcher Prouty spoke about the infamous Umbrella based flechette firing weapon, he claims to have witnessed fired at a goat.

 

Quote

"That [umbrella] system was quite remarkable. You could see the subject through the targeting mechanism just like he was right there in front of you--close up--and you'd track him by rotating the canopy. A shot like the one in Dealey Plaza wouldn't have been difficult. You see, the distance from Kennedy to that man with the umbrella looks a lot farther in the pictures and films, but it was quite close. An easy shot with a device like that. I've seen it done in testing from a much greater distance than that. Once they blew the hind leg clean off of a goat with one of those darts--loaded with a very high explosive--from about a hundred yards away."

Once they blew the hind leg clean off of a goat with one of those darts -- loaded with very high explosive -- from about a hundred yards away

Needlegun - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needlegun

A needlegun, also known as a needler, flechette gun or fletcher, is a firearm that fires small, sometimes fin-stabilized, metal darts or flechettes. Theoretically, the advantages of a needlegun over conventional projectile firearms are in its compact size, high rate of fire, and extreme muzzle velocity. The needle presents less frontal area than a bullet, producing less drag and thus more effective range (especially in water) than a wider projectile of the same mass and velocity. There have been experiments to make guided flechettes that can home in on targets

A June 1978 issue of Gallery Magazine^[3] quotes L. Fletcher Prouty observing a test of flechette weapons in 1960 and the testimony of William E. Colby in the Church Committee on September 16 to 18, 1975 describing flechette weapons. Charles A. Senseney testified that he was a project engineer of the M-1 dart launcher that was described as resembling a M1911 pistol with a sight mount at the top.

Senseney claimed the M-1 was designed for the US Army Special Forces to be used in the Vietnam war but never got there due to not being able to get into the US Army's logistics system in time.^[4] Flechette ammunition encased in a sabot was available for the M-16, shotguns, and other weapons for use in Vietnam.

Quote

William E. Colby, Director of Central Intelligence, told the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence that pursuant to a Presidential order the project. code‐named “M.K. Naomi,” was halted in February, 1970.

Mr. Colby showed the committee a dart gun patterned on the Army's Colt semi‐automatic pistol but electrically fired. He said it could shoot a dart 100 meters and was “almost silent.”

The dart gun, brought before the committee at its request, was described in a C.I.A. memo as a “nondiscernible microbionoculator.”

from https://www.nytimes.com/1975/09/17/archives/colby-describes-cia-poison-work-he-tells-senate-panel-of-secret.html

Most of this is old news for this sites members. But it remains the same, a mystery -- we don't know the advanced weaponry available to CIA assets during the JFK era.