Walker, West 5th and the missing License Plate Photo

[Tony Krome]

Now that it has been established that the Ryders lived on West 5th St, it would be amiss to ignore the following;

The Paines and the Randles considered themselves neighbours even though there were several houses between them.

It follows then that Dial Ryder's boss, Charles Greener, and Walker's friend, Charles Klihr were also neighbours over on Rosebud in Irving.

Liebeler suspected that the 57 Chevrolet (with the license plate obliterated) in the Walker house photo (allegedly taken by Oswald) belonged to Charles Kilhr.

By removing the license plate from the 57 Chevrolet, and covering up the fact that the Ryders lived on West 5th St, one can muse the connection from West 5th to Walker was effectively severed.

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Tony Krome

[James DiEugenio]

But Tony, was not later a picture with the plate found?

Did it match Klihr's? 

[Tony Krome]

48 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

But Tony, was not later a picture with the plate found?

Did it match Klihr's? 

I'm only aware of 3 versions of the photo.

Marina stating that when she first saw the photo, the license plate was visible

In the group photo of displayed items spread over the floor showing that photo with a mild form of damage.

An close-up photo showing the total obliteration of the license plate area.

If someone has a photo of the intact and readable license plate, I'd like to see it.

Below showing mild damage;

Obliteration;

Edited November 25, 2023 by Tony Krome

[Mark Ulrik]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

In the group photo of displayed items spread over the floor showing that photo with a mild form of damage.

In the group photo, the damaged photo is lying on top of what looks like some envelopes. Wouldn't we expect them to be visible through the hole?

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Mark Ulrik said:

In the group photo, the damaged photo is lying on top of what looks like some envelopes. Wouldn't we expect them to be visible through the hole?

What I can make out, is that the photo appears to be damaged by smudging that does not penetrate the photo substrate. Unfortunately, we have to zoom right in to see, so the quality is pretty poor.

[Tom Gram]

Klihr was never interviewed by the FBI, and the evidence surrounding this whole episode is a bit shady, to put it mildly. For reference, here’s how it all played out: 

On 5/13/64, Rankin specifically asked the FBI to determine the owner of the vehicle, and suggested that Walker be asked about it. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=59599#relPageId=199

In response, the Dallas FBI did the following:

1. On 5/21/64, Detective Hart of the DPD reported that Klihr owned a ‘57 Chevy. 

2. On 6/3/64, the FBI displayed the photo to Robert Surrey. The report on this interview says that Surrey claimed the car “appeared identical” to Klihr’s. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=60410#relPageId=117

However, Surrey refused to identify the car in his 6/16/64 WC testimony:

Mr. SURREY. Yes; I have seen this photo before. Mr. Barrett of the FBI in Dallas brought this to my attention. 
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the automobile? 
Mr. SURREY. Not positively, but I think it belongs to Mr. Charles Klihr. 
Mr. JENNER. And who is Mr. Charles Klihr? 
Mr. SURREY. He is a volunteer worker of Mr. Walker's, also. 
Mr. JENNER. Are you sufficiently familiar with Mr. Charles Klihr's automobile you already identified it---- 
Mr. SURREY. No; I did not identify it. I cannot do that, sir. 
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your ability is all I am suggesting, sir. 
Mr. SURREY. Yes. 
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether there was a license plate or license plate fixture in or about the area in which the black spot on the automobile appears? 
Mr. SURREY. I have seen Mr. Klihr's automobile many times. I have not seen it without a license plate, which I think I would note if it were not there. 
Mr. JENNER. Yes; but located at or about in the vicinity of that black spot? 
Mr. SURREY. I would say to the best of my knowledge; yes, sir. 

Surrey undoubtedly expressed the same uncertainty to the FBI, but the FBI conveniently left that out of their report to the WC.

Also, despite Rankin’s specific suggestion, Dallas recommended that Walker not be interviewed about the car in the photo. Their reasoning was that Walker would contact the press “concerning the nature of the inquiries”, and that they’d already developed information that the car “most likely” belonged to Klihr. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=59599#relPageId=204

Kudos to Liebeler for realizing that something didn’t add up in 1966. This is a quote from the linked thread:

——

In 1966, Wesley Liebeler wrote to Klihr, enclosed a copy of the photo, and tried to get Klihr to identify the car because he couldn’t find any evidence the FBI ever spoke with him. Klihr refused to respond and called the FBI. No comment on the car. Klihr also claimed that he never received the enclosed photo. 

The FBI confirm in this memo that Klihr was never interviewed during the investigation. That seems pretty damn strange, IMO: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62241#relPageId=58

Liebeler also wrote to J. Edgar Hoover on this. He pointed out Surrey’s refusal to identify the car under oath, the missing interview, etc. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62389#relPageId=138

——
Tony could be right that Klihr was avoided by the FBI to prevent an investigation of West 5th, but all the FBI needed to do was get a simple confirmation from Klihr saying “it’s my car.”

Why wouldn’t they do that? 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Jean Ceulemans]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

Tony could be right that Klihr was avoided by the FBI to prevent an investigation of West 5th, but all the FBI needed to do was get a simple confirmation from Klihr saying “it’s my car.”

Why wouldn’t they do that? 

Klihr at Walker's house was no problem, it was known he was an associate.   

BUT having Klihr at Walkers house while LHO was in the same time taking pictures outside could cause many problems, e.g. they would have to interview him if he had seen someone outside that day, but more important it could lead to the exact date when the picture was taken.   

Edited November 25, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Jean Ceulemans]

On 11/25/2023 at 4:55 AM, James DiEugenio said:

But Tony, was not later a picture with the plate found?

Did it match Klihr's? 

I don't think so, 

Marina was the only one that said she had seen the picture without a hole in it.

And in doing so she connectied the original undamaged photo to Lee, and within that frame connected Lee once more to the Walker shot...

But... in the same time pointing to the fact that some agency had taken the license plate out... oops.

Marina at times was like shooting a riot gun...   she'd hit anything within reach... One really needed to be carefull in asking her the right questions, or you would have some serious backfire.  Smart girl she was.

  

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks for that Jean.

If the original had a hole through it, then......

Nice work Tom.  

[Tony Krome]

Looks like the area from which the photo was taken, was pretty exposed to the people inside.

The person taking that photo with an Imperial Reflex camera would be looking down at the view finder, correct?

Who takes that type of camera on a RECON mission haha

[Greg Doudna]

54 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

Marina at times was like shooting a riot gun...   she'd hit anything within reach... One really needed to be carefull in asking her the right questions, or you would have some serious backfire.  Smart girl she was.

That’s an interesting interpretation Jean. I remember wondering if something like that could be going on with Marina’s identification of CE 162, the light tan tippit killer’s abandoned jacket, as the gray jacket she and others see spoke of belonging to Oswald. In my study of the jackets I was certain that identification of Marina’s could not be correct—among other things Buell Frazier was categorical it wasn’t correct. I went to some work in my paper to show fluorescent lighting in indoor lighting can wash out warm colors making light tan look gray, and the leading questions in the runup of known Oswald clothing items, Marina saying yes, yes, yes… then without missing a beat asking her about the only item on the table not found by police among Lee’s belongings, that jacket, and Marina not handling it, not touching it, not hesitating, just says another yes (did her antennae pick up a yes was wanted of her on that?) … I noted the WC asked her at the close of a fourth consecutive day of grueling testimony when she was acknowledged tired and was told as soon as she got those last clothing IDs done she could go home… but she calls it a “shirt” not a jacket before agreeing, and then (wickedly?) drops a bomb, saying she thought Lee was wearing that Thursday night in Irving 11/21/63. Which completely contradicts the desired and concluded Warren Commission narrative. So that little (!) bomb in Marina’s testimony is disregarded and assumed mistaken while the jacket ID by her in the same breath is considered solid. Was Marina doing what you suggest… smart girl as you put it, wily ingenue, a hint of passive-aggressive toward her interlocutors? I don’t know. 

[Jean Ceulemans]

On 11/25/2023 at 7:18 PM, Greg Doudna said:

. Was Marina doing what you suggest… smart girl as you put it, wily ingenue, a hint of passive-aggressive toward her interlocutors? I don’t know. 

A picture is worth a thousand words... well... not always... but we can not deny that by the time she appeared  before the WC she already was a different girl.

I have to admire her for that, how she came out after what had happened to her, she must have been exceptionally strong.  She decided it was over and out with the misery, and was taking matters into her own hands (she made a few mistakes in the process but kept on going).

Some of the big and strong men that were involved, came out totally broken.  

But not Marina, she straightened her back and went for it, I have to give her that. 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Jean Ceulemans]

2 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Looks like the area from which the photo was taken, was pretty exposed to the people inside.

The person taking that photo with an Imperial Reflex camera would be looking down at the view finder, correct?

Who takes that type of camera on a RECON mission haha

A master spy could perhaps 😃 in full camouflage with a long raincoat...

Now, the focal length of the Imperial Reflex lens is 75 mm, which is rather long.   You would have to keep some serious distance if you want to capture a large house within a single frame.   I don’t know if they checked this, was it possible to even stand there where the picture was allegedly taken?   I know they compared scratch marks, but how about the actual framing? 

Assuming the picture was processed uncropped from the full negative (I guess it was, seen the scratch marks)?  One could fairly easy calculate the distance between the person with the camera and the house, using triangulation.   

I mean - for all we now - with the Imperial Reflex and that specific picture, the photographer would need to have been standing in the middle of a pond, or in some dense woods, a huge fence, a doghouse with a nasty dog in it…  you get the picture…   Don’t know, but worth checking IMO

[Jean Ceulemans]

B.t.w. is there a plan showing the house and the surroundings ?

Or a streetmap that's period correct and shows the contours of the Walker house ? 

I have been looking at the picture a little closer, and I'm heaving some problems if it was actually taken with a 75mm lens (I'm going to double check that anyway)

Could be nothing but I'm curious, I want to do the calculation of the distance, but need data (dimensions of the house, especially the height)

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

A picture is worth a thousand words... well... not always... but we can not deny that by the time she appeared  before the WC she already was a different girl.

She was a different girl in just two months after coming from under Oswald's yoke. The cash flooding in was wisely spent on Turbo English classes;