Walker, West 5th and the missing License Plate Photo

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

B.t.w. is there a plan showing the house and the surroundings ?

Or a streetmap that's period correct and shows the contours of the Walker house ? 

I have been looking at the picture a little closer, and I'm heaving some problems if it was actually taken with a 75mm lens (I'm going to double check that anyway)

Could be nothing but I'm curious, I want to do the calculation of the distance, but need data (dimensions of the house, especially the height)

The house has drastically changed;

 

[Steve Roe]

On 11/24/2023 at 4:40 PM, Tony Krome said:

Now that it has been established that the Ryders lived on West 5th St, it would be amiss to ignore the following;

Mr. Krome, you are mistaken.

Dial Duwayne Ryder did not live on West 5th street in 1963, he lived at 2028 Harvard St. in Irving in 1963, approximately 3 miles away. FBI agent Emory Horton came to his house on November 25th and interviewed him. Warren Commission, Volume XI: Dial Duwayne Ryder (history-matters.com)

Here's SA Horton's report with the correct address (2028 Harvard St.).

 Commission Document 5 - FBI Gemberling Report of 30 Nov 1963 re: Oswald (maryferrell.org)

Charles Klihr, who lived at 2046 Rosebud in Irving was also some distance away (4 miles from the Paine house on 2515 West 5th). 

I wouldn't call them neighbors in 1963, would you?

I think we can put this in the circular file and move on. 

 

[Tony Krome]

15 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

Mr. Krome, you are mistaken.

Dial Duwayne Ryder did not live on West 5th street in 1963, he lived at 2028 Harvard St. in Irving in 1963, approximately 3 miles away. FBI agent Emory Horton came to his house on November 25th and interviewed him. Warren Commission, Volume XI: Dial Duwayne Ryder (history-matters.com)

Here's SA Horton's report with the correct address (2028 Harvard St.).

 Commission Document 5 - FBI Gemberling Report of 30 Nov 1963 re: Oswald (maryferrell.org)

Charles Klihr, who lived at 2046 Rosebud in Irving was also some distance away (4 miles from the Paine house on 2515 West 5th). 

I wouldn't call them neighbors in 1963, would you?

I think we can put this in the circular file and move on. 

 

1. I stated that Dial Ryder's Boss, Greener, was close to Klihr over on Rosebud, not Dial himself. In fact, after Dial Ryder moved to 2028 Harvard, Klihr moved close to Harvard on Salem.

2. At least up to Friday, 13th of December, 1963, Dial Ryder's wife was noted in a newspaper report to be living across the road from the Randles at 2434 West 5th, Irving. The same 2434 West 5th address was known in 1965, to be occupied by Roy E Jones, the father of Dial's wife, Peggie Jo Ryder.

3. Both Dial and his wife, at some undetermined time, moved to 2028 Harvard

4. Do you have information that Dial and his wife lived apart?

[Greg Doudna]

Steve's right Tony. In addition to the Nov 25, 1963 FBI interview Steve cites, a Secret Service interview of Dial Ryder on Dec 1, 1963, also has Dial's address as 2028 Harvard (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=522). We know Dial was married to Peggy in Nov-Dec 1963 and spoke of saying or not saying something to his wife the weekend of the assassination, implying she was living with him as would be expected barring marital difficulties. The December newspaper report giving Peggy's address as her parents' address across the street from the Randles must be from the police report and the question there is whether the police officer who made out the report obtained Peggy's address from asking Peggy or from copying it from Peggy's driver's license. Whenever I have been stopped by an officer and asked for my driver's license, the officer usually asks, "is this your current address?" but did that happen in that case in Dec 1963?

Here is another indication Peggy was living with Dial in Nov 1963. It is the reporter Hunter Schmidt phone call to Dial Ryder which resulted in the Thanksgiving Day newspaper story written by Hunter Schmidt. Dial Ryder first denied to his boss (who learned from reading in the newspaper on Thanksgiving that his shop installed the scope on the rifle that shot the president!) and to the FBI that any such call had occurred, then to the Secret Service protested the reporter had misquoted what he told him in that phone call.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to advise you of the fact that we have located the newspaper reporter who supposedly talked to you that morning and his name is Hunter Schmidt, Jr., and that he has testified that he came to work at The Dallas Times Herald that morning and had a lead on this story that he had gotten from an anonymous telephone call that some woman made to the FBI and one was made to a television station here in Dallas telling them that Oswald had had some work done in your sports shop and I think I previously asked you about this and you said you didn't have anything to do with those anonymous telephone calls; is that right?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Schmidt says that he started looking for your name which he got from somewhere, apparently in connection with the Dallas Police Department and tracked you down at your home and called you between 7:30 and 8 o'clock on the morning of November 28, 1963, and that apparently your wife answered the telephone as you were still asleep and you came to the telephone and you appeared to be sleepy and that he talked to you for an extended period of time, and that you gave him the information that subsequently appeared in the newspaper article on November 28, 1963, in The Dallas Times Herald. Mr. Schmidt was advised when he testified that you had denied giving him this story, although you had admitted that some reporter had called you on the telephone that morning. Is the name Hunter Schmidt familiar to you at all?
Mr. RYDER. No; it's not.

Who knows, maybe Dial told Peggy about the Oswald job ticket the same day he found it and when Dial did not immediately inform his boss and police, an upset Peggy told her father and her father phoned it anonymously to the FBI, the source of the leak. Then Peggy became angry with Dial over it and related issues in the coming days, there was an argument and Peggy moves back in with her parents and was there at the time of the auto accident, if she really was there at the time of the December accident.

[Edit 11/26/63: I have removed a closing sentence proposing a recent marriage and non-updated drivers' license of Peggie because Krome has informed that Peggie and Dial were married in 1959.] 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Steve's right Tony. In addition to the Nov 25, 1963 FBI interview Steve cites, a Secret Service interview of Dial Ryder on Dec 1, 1963, also has Dial's address as 2028 Harvard (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=522). We know Dial was married to Peggy in Nov-Dec 1963 and spoke of saying or not saying something to his wife the weekend of the assassination, implying she was living with him as would be expected barring marital difficulties. The December newspaper report giving Peggy's address as her parents' address across the street from the Randles must be from the police report and the question there is whether the police officer who made out the report obtained Peggy's address from asking Peggy or from copying it from Peggy's driver's license. Whenever I have been stopped by an officer and asked for my driver's license, the officer usually asks, "is this your current address?" but did that happen in that case in Dec 1963?

Here is another indication Peggy was living with Dial in Nov 1963. It is the reporter Hunter Schmidt phone call to Dial Ryder which resulted in the Thanksgiving Day newspaper story written by Hunter Schmidt. Dial Ryder first denied to his boss (who learned from reading in the newspaper on Thanksgiving that his shop installed the scope on the rifle that shot the president!) and to the FBI that any such call had occurred, then to the Secret Service protested the reporter had misquoted what he told him in that phone call.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to advise you of the fact that we have located the newspaper reporter who supposedly talked to you that morning and his name is Hunter Schmidt, Jr., and that he has testified that he came to work at The Dallas Times Herald that morning and had a lead on this story that he had gotten from an anonymous telephone call that some woman made to the FBI and one was made to a television station here in Dallas telling them that Oswald had had some work done in your sports shop and I think I previously asked you about this and you said you didn't have anything to do with those anonymous telephone calls; is that right?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Schmidt says that he started looking for your name which he got from somewhere, apparently in connection with the Dallas Police Department and tracked you down at your home and called you between 7:30 and 8 o'clock on the morning of November 28, 1963, and that apparently your wife answered the telephone as you were still asleep and you came to the telephone and you appeared to be sleepy and that he talked to you for an extended period of time, and that you gave him the information that subsequently appeared in the newspaper article on November 28, 1963, in The Dallas Times Herald. Mr. Schmidt was advised when he testified that you had denied giving him this story, although you had admitted that some reporter had called you on the telephone that morning. Is the name Hunter Schmidt familiar to you at all?
Mr. RYDER. No; it's not.

Who knows, maybe Dial told Peggy about the Oswald job ticket the same day he found it and when Dial did not immediately inform his boss and police, an upset Peggy told her father and her father phoned it anonymously to the FBI, the source of the leak. Then Peggy became angry with Dial over it and related issues in the coming days, there was an argument and Peggy moves back in with her parents and was there at the time of the auto accident, if she really was there at the time of the December accident. But it seems to me a recent marriage; lack of an updated driver's license on Peggy's part; an officer copying down Peggy's address as it appeared on her driver's license, and Peggy living with Dial at 2028 Harvard St. because she was married to him, is the simplest explanation.

Yes, I'm aware of all the official reports reflecting Dial Ryder's address as 2028 Harvard. There is a very real possibility that the Ryder's had secured the house at 2028 Harvard in 1963 and they were in the process of moving there from the house at 2434 West 5th, which could have actually been owned by the father of Peggie, Roy E. Jones.

I'm sure the police/ambulance secured the injured Peggie's residential address and phone number, and promptly informed those on 2434 West 5th that she was taken to the medical centre after a head on collision.

Did Dial Ryder say that his wife answered the (Schmidt dialled) phone?

Are you suggesting that law enforcement did not bother enquiring at 2434 West 5th, a house that had direct connections to the Gunsmith with an "Oswald" scope mount tag, and that it was a house with direct views to the corner of West 5th and Westbrook, where Oswald was allegedly carrying a scoped rifle in a bag, because there was a possibility that he wasn't there?

And finally, why has it taken 60 years to find the Ryder/Jones family opposite the Randles? Why wasn't the WC informed of this while they were doggedly pursuing lines of enquiry regarding the "Oswald" tag? Why would the whole street remain silent about this?

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Tony Krome

[Tony Krome]

Looking forward to your response.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Tony Krome

[Greg Doudna]

29 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Did Dial Ryder say that his wife answered the (Schmidt dialled) phone?

Dial's account in his Warren Commission testimony is he answered the phone, said "no comment" and hung up, no mention of Peggy. The reporter, Hunter Schmidt, who had a witness to the phone call and comes across as credible, said Dial's wife answered the phone, handed it to Dial and Dial talked to him for maybe fifteen minutes. Dial's first claim was there was no phone call, then he told the Secret Service the reporter had misrepresented what he told the reporter, and then to the Warren Commission he said there was a call but he had said nothing more than "no comment" to the reporter.

40 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Are you suggesting that law enforcement did not bother enquiring at 2434 West 5th, a house that had direct connections to the Gunsmith with an "Oswald" scope mount tag, and that it was a house with direct views to the corner of West 5th and Westbrook, where Oswald was allegedly carrying a scoped rifle in a bag, because there was a possibility that he wasn't there?

I have no special knowledge but it looks to me like law enforcement did not bother inquiring, though not for the reason you suggest.

I think your point you are wanting to make is law enforcement should have made inquiries at the house there. I agree (to ask if they knew the Randles and if they knew of any rifle activity, had they seen anything related to Oswald, how often Dial was there, did he interact with Buell, etc.). I don't know why it wasn't done other than the default explanation that it never came onto their radar.

45 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

And finally, why has it taken 60 years to find the Ryder/Jones family opposite the Randles? Why wasn't the WC informed of this while they were doggedly pursuing lines of enquiry regarding the "Oswald" tag? Why would the whole street remain silent about this?

I'm not the person to ask, I don't know.

Maybe ask Buell Frazier. 

Is it possible people like Buell living across the street either did not know or if they did know that was the house of Dial's in-laws did not think it was a matter of importance warranting a call to the police or FBI?

I doubt there was a neighborhood conspiracy not to make such a call to the FBI, yet it seems no such call was made. My best guess: an accident that no one who knew thought it important enough to call the FBI about it. 

 

 

  

 

[Tony Krome]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Dial's account in his Warren Commission testimony is he answered the phone, said "no comment" and hung up, no mention of Peggy. The reporter, Hunter Schmidt, who had a witness to the phone call and comes across as credible, said Dial's wife answered the phone, handed it to Dial and Dial talked to him for maybe fifteen minutes. Dial's first claim was there was no phone call, then he told the Secret Service the reporter had misrepresented what he told the reporter, and then to the Warren Commission he said there was a call but he had said nothing more than "no comment" to the reporter.

I see you have used the word "credible" in relation to Schmidt. I gather then, that you have doubts that Ryder told the truth at the WC. Is that a form of perjury? People that tell untruths have something to hide.

[Greg Doudna]

39 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

I see you have used the word "credible" in relation to Schmidt. I gather then, that you have doubts that Ryder told the truth at the WC. Is that a form of perjury? People that tell untruths have something to hide.

Yes I do believe Ryder was not telling the truth in his denial of talking to Schmidt. Since he said that under oath to the Warren Commission, yes I believe that was perjury. I believe Schmidt was truthful and reported what Ryder told him.

Owner Greener read the Schmidt story in the newspaper on Thanksgiving day, that was when he first learned of it, asked Ryder what was going on, Ryder lied, denied to Greener he was the reporter's source, because he was in trouble with his boss. That's how I reconstruct it.

Publicly Greener backed up Ryder. I saw a newspaper photo of Ryder and Greener at that shop several years later when Greener was selling the business. I think this was a case of Ryder being a valuable "key employee" due to his experience at the shop and knowhow and longtime relationship with Greener, even if he was not a "perfect" employee.

[Tony Krome]

6 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Yes I do believe Ryder was not telling the truth in his denial of talking to Schmidt. Since he said that under oath to the Warren Commission, yes I believe that was perjury. I believe Schmidt was truthful and reported what Ryder told him.

Owner Greener read the Schmidt story in the newspaper on Thanksgiving day, that was when he first learned of it, asked Ryder what was going on, Ryder lied, denied to Greener he was the reporter's source, because he was in trouble with his boss. That's how I reconstruct it.

Interesting, you have Ryder lying to the WC, and his boss. Can you explain why you believe Ryder was in trouble with his boss?

[Tom Gram]

Was Ryder’s wife ever interviewed? I couldn’t find anything on MFF. 

From photos it looks like 2434 was directly across the street from the Randle’s, and whoever was in there would’ve had a clear view of Oswald, the carport, all of it. If that is true, it’s pretty hard to explain why the occupants were not interviewed by the FBI. 

I posted this in another thread. Bardwell Odum and Gibbon McNeely interviewed all the neighbors:

…who would logically might have a view of Lee Harvey Oswald from the time he left Mrs. Paine’s house until he reached Frazier’s residence…

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=103

They went to nine different houses. I haven’t found the memo that led to this report, but that might be an interesting document to look for. 

[Jean Ceulemans]

For some reason Roy Everett Jones was not included.

A little detective work would have placed Peggie there (let's say at some point in time clse to 11/22) and make the Ryder connection.

The Ryder "thing" was big news, making it more stunning they never walked the extra mile (well... feet that is...)

But what about 2503 ???

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Tony Krome]

Read all you can find about Charles Greener, Dial Ryder, Hunter Schmidt and F. M. Turner (the cop). There are contradictions galore. I'm trying to figure out who is lying and who is telling the truth.

[Tony Krome]

16 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

But it seems to me a recent marriage; lack of an updated driver's license on Peggy's part; an officer copying down Peggy's address as it appeared on her driver's license, and Peggy living with Dial at 2028 Harvard St. because she was married to him, is the simplest explanation.

Greg, while you were snoozing, I found that Dial Ryder graduated in 1957, and married Peggie Jones in 1959. Does that change your above assessment?

[Tom Gram]

5 hours ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

For some reason Roy Everett Jones was not included.

A little detective work would have placed Peggie there (let's say at some point in time clse to 11/22) and make the Ryder connection.

The Ryder "thing" was big news, making it more stunning they never walked the extra mile (well... feet that is...)

But what about 2503 ???

 

First thought from looking at that map is the agents stopped at the Embry’s because anyone in 2434 would’ve had to have made the excruciating effort of turning their head slightly to the left while looking out the window to see Oswald, and the agents decided that wasn’t “logical”. 

That still doesn’t really add up though. Jones et al. could’ve been out grabbing the paper, on the way to work, etc. If the FBI really wanted to find another witness to the infamous package trek they should have knocked on the door, especially after everyone else denied seeing anything.