Bart Kamp's Lancer presentation

[Sandy Larsen]

12 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

No permission was required prior to Aug. 2019 (which is when James Gordon decided to add a new rule to the EF rulebook ...

So Sandy's comment above does not apply, and is not a fair comment.

 

You need to get permission from the author, not the forum.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

17 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

But you shouldn't fool yourself into thinking [DVP]'s broken any laws, because he has not.

 

I disagree.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

Just because people do something "all the time" and get away with it doesn't make it legal.

There have been numerous times I've seen forum member post whole articles from news and other sites. That is illegal. Virtually nobody is prosecuted for doing that, but it is still illegal.

I don't really care myself if members copy articles to the forum. But I do care that DVP has copied large portions of discussions and has used them to build a website.

Even if what DVP has done weren't illegal, we could ban him from the site for doing so. Apparently he WAS banned for doing so... good! I don't know why the admin staff allowed him to return.

Again, I'd like to say that I like David and believe he is a valuable forum asset. Why? Because he performs some fact checking for CTers and challenges them. But I don't like the way he has taken forum posts and used them for anti-CT purposes.

 

[Pat Speer]

44 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I disagree.

 

Well then cite the words of the law you think he has broken...

There was a lone-nutter type who complained about my pointing out his mistake/deception on my website, and who suggested I'd broken a law.

So I looked it up. Here is a description of the Fair Use Doctrine...

 

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

2. the nature of the copyrighted work;

3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

 

So...are the words on this website copyrighted? I honestly don't know. And if they are, by whom? 

So...is David making money off his website? If so, well, then that can be problem. I have been offered tens of thousands of dollars over the years to monetize my website, but I have turned it down because I didn't want Dale Myers or CBS or whomever to come after me. 

But look more closely... Are the quotes David is citing a "substantial" portion of the words on this website, and has his using these quotes had an effect on the potential value of this, a free website?

It's hard to see how. Anyone on the web can read them on this website, and anyone on the web can read them on his website. 

In the words of Chick Hearn. No harm no foul. 

P.S. I am sensitive to this copyright issue. I worked in the record industry and saw it smashed to bits by the wanton disregard to copyright. I have also had people take videos I'd created and add their own narration and call it their own work. And that's not even to mention that there are numerous "mirror" sites of my website around the world. (Of which I am, to be clear, ambivalent... When I was in the hospital, and the odds were against me, google scrambled my website, and it felt like someone or something was trying to take it down the way the Lancer site and other sites have been taken down. And I took some solace in knowing that much of my website was still available in Sri Lanka, or China, or somewhere, anywhere...)

Edited December 11, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Mart Hall]

On 12/7/2023 at 9:22 PM, Bill Brown said:

 

Oswald clearly admitted to a reporter, on film, that he was in the building "at the time".

Oswald is saying that he was inside the Depository at the time of the assassination.  Therefore, he is not out on the steps or the landing at the time.

 

 

Since you are willing to accept, quite literally, what Oswald says to reporters what do you make of the following exchange:

 

Reporter in corridor: Did you shoot the President?

Oswald: I didn’t shoot anyone, no sir.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Mart Hall said:

Since you are willing to accept, quite literally, what Oswald says to reporters what do you make of the following exchange:

 

Reporter in corridor: Did you shoot the President?

Oswald: I didn’t shoot anyone, no sir.

 

Excellent point, Marty!

I mean, I always thought that the argument about Oswald saying he naturally was in the building was silly. But your counter-argument proves so!

 

[David Von Pein]

13 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

So...is David making money off his website?

The answer to that is ..... No. Not a penny.

 

[David Von Pein]

On 12/10/2023 at 4:20 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

DVP took that material from the Education Forum without permission.

On 12/11/2023 at 12:17 AM, David Von Pein said:

No permission was required prior to Aug. 2019 (which is when James Gordon decided to add a new rule to the EF rulebook so that he could find a "legal" [sort of] excuse to kick me out the door, which he did). So Sandy's comment above does not apply, and is not a fair comment.

14 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

You need to get permission from the author, not the forum.

But I didn't "need" to get any permission from anybody prior to late August of 2019, because no such "Get Permission" rule was officially on the EF books until Aug. 27, 2019.

That was the point, Sandy (which you seem to want to ignore).

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

16 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

14 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

You need to get permission from the author, not the forum.

But I didn't "need" to get any permission from anybody prior to late August of 2019, because no such "Get Permission" rule was officially on the EF books until Aug. 27, 2019.

 

You need to get permission from the authors (regardless of forum rules) because they are the copyright holders.

 

[David Von Pein]

51 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

You need to get permission from the authors (regardless of forum rules) because they are the copyright holders.

You're dead wrong about this.

You need to re-read Pat Speer's last several posts regarding this issue.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

5 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

You're dead wrong about this.

 

Nope.

If a person puts any meaningful thought into something they write, it is creative. And since it is creative, the writer automatically has copyright to it.

 

[David Von Pein]

19 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

So...are the words on this website copyrighted? I honestly don't know. And if they are, by whom? 

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

If a person puts any meaningful thought into something they write, it is creative. And since it is creative, the writer automatically has copyright to it.

----------------------------------------------------

Copyright Registration Fees can be found HERE.

----------------------------------------------------

Edited December 12, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Jean Ceulemans]

I can only say the forum rules are the same for everybody (or they should be)

I don't know if David has copied content to his website since he came back here, I don't think so.  

If one feels the need to apply the forum rules w/o exception it's going to be a busy year-end.  If have seen content from this group being copied pretty much every where,   entire topics and posts, or parts of...   https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2781-shake-a-speer-and-dooky-flies-out-of-every-orifice#42931

As long as nobody complains... I'd simply let it be... 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Jonathan Cohen]

4 hours ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

As long as nobody complains... I'd simply let it be... 

Indeed. Instead, we have to deal with Sandy Larsen, for no apparent reason, trying to reopen an issue that was dealt with years ago. Move on.

[Greg Doudna]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

You need to get permission from the authors (regardless of forum rules) because they are the copyright holders.

That simply is not automatically correct, Sandy, and not obviously correct in the quotations of David, accurate with citation and attribution.

Do you not know the legal meaning and provision for “fair use” quotations from copyrighted works—brief quotations for purposes of research and discussion—which do not legally require permission of the copyright holder (creator)? 

I believe Pat Speer quoted from the law on that above. It is in the Copyright Act of 1965. Did you not read it?

That is the law, that “fair use” quotations from published books, articles, any publication, any copyrighted published work, do not, repeat do not, legally require the copyright holder’s permission. 

(If such were required, think about it: no ability to cite a footnote to anything without prior obtaining of written permission? Have you ever quoted someone on this forum at the top of a post to which to reply without privately obtaining advance written permission from the one quoted? Substantive discussion worldwide would be extremely chilled if not stopped altogether if that were the law, which fortunately it is not.)

Of course “fair use” is not clearly defined but the Copyright Act gave principles to be applied on the standard of a reasonable person’s interpretation concerning application of those principles.

I agree with the policy of this forum that members shall not quote from this forum outside this forum. However that is not a copyright issue but a forum rules issue.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Greg Doudna