Anyone have a time estimate for the Robert Edwards escort?

[Pat Speer]

5 hours ago, Denis Morissette said:

Sprague says 12:55. 2 photos later show Larry Florer.

So maybe my thought that no one reacted to Mooney is correct. Mooney finds the sn, yells down, and thinks Fritz is coming up. But Fritz doesn't hear him. A few minutes later Hill comes over and yells again. This convinces someone Harkness? to call Day, the crime scene specialist, and he prepares to come over. In the meantime, Fritz wanders through the building. He finally arrives at the sn around 1:15., 5 minutes before Day. 

Does this sound about right?

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Tony Krome]

It appears there's two Isaac C Todds.

Isaac Carroll Todd Jr was born in 1931, wife was Betty, and he worked at the Sheriffs Dept in Dallas.

Isaac Carroll Todd was born in 1903, and appears to be the father of the above.

So it appears it was Isaac Carroll Todd Jr, a man of about 32 years old in 1963, who heard the hollering about finding three hulls before returning to the Sheriffs Dept.

As soon as we work out who the person was that's escorting Edwards, I'll update the info in the thread.

[Donald Willis]

1 hour ago, Denis Morissette said:

Sprague says 12:55. 2 photos later show Larry Florer.

That "12:55" he based on what?

[Denis Morissette]

About 2 minutes before the Hill photo. https://ibb.co/d4Fstz8

[Donald Willis]

2 hours ago, Denis Morissette said:

Sprague says 12:55. 2 photos later show Larry Florer.

That can't be right.  Mooney didn't shout until about 12:59, just after he found the shells, at about which time Harkness called the Crime Lab.  And even if Hill ran right to the next window, after hearing Mooney and instructing the other deputies, that wouldn't have been until just after l o'clock.  And a Trask photo (p519) taken at "approximately 1:00" shows Hill's window still closed.

[Donald Willis]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

So maybe my thought that no one reacted to Mooney is correct. Mooney finds the sn, yells down, and thinks Fritz is coming up. But Fritz doesn't hear him. A few minutes later Hill comes over and yells again. This convinces someone Harkness? to call Day, the crime scene specialist, and he prepares to come over. In the meantime, Fritz wanders through the building. He finally arrives at the sn around 1:15., 5 minutes before Day. 

Does this sound about right?

 

It makes sense

Mooney testified that he found the shells just before 1pm.  Harkness radios about 12:59 for the Crime Wagon--that's on the DPD radio-log record.  So, at least Harkness, Decker (according to Mooney), and Sweatt heard Mooney.  By the time that Hill gives his shout--1:10 as you earlier suggested--Day is almost at the depository.  (Day testified that he arrived at 1:12, not 1:20.)  

As for Fritz's arrival... From Det. Marvin Johnson's undated report:  "We drove to Elm & Houston, arriving there at about 12:50pm.  We went immediately to the 6th floor of the TSBD & reported to Captain Will Fritz."  Fritz, famously, got there at 12:58, so Johnson & Montgomery probably didn't get there until about 1pm or a little after, and found Fritz already there--on the 6th floor, not wandering the 7 floors of the building.

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

Mooney testified that he found the shells just before 1pm.  Harkness radios about 12:59 for the Crime Wagon--that's on the DPD radio-log record.  So, at least Harkness, Decker (according to Mooney), and Sweatt heard Mooney.  By the time that Hill gives his shout--1:10 as you earlier suggested--Day is almost at the depository.  (Day testified that he arrived at 1:12, not 1:20.)  

As for Fritz's arrival... From Det. Marvin Johnson's undated report:  "We drove to Elm & Houston, arriving there at about 12:50pm.  We went immediately to the 6th floor of the TSBD & reported to Captain Will Fritz."  Fritz, famously, got there at 12:58, so Johnson & Montgomery probably didn't get there until about 1pm or a little after, and found Fritz already there--on the 6th floor, not wandering the 7 floors of the building.

Mr. BALL. When you went in the front door, who was with you? 
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I. 
Mr. BALL. Where did you go? 
Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the elevator. 
Mr. BALL. Which elevator? 
Mr. SIMS. The main passenger elevator. 
Mr. BALL. It was a freight elevator, wasn't it? 
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think the passenger elevator goes to about the third floor and then the freight elevator takes over. 
Mr. BALL. You went up in the passenger elevator in the front of the building? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. And you went as far as it could go, did you? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. What did you do then? 
Mr. SIMS. Then, we caught the freight elevator. 
Mr. BALL. That would be in another part of the building? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I think it's on the north end of the building. 
Mr. BALL. Did somebody direct you where to go to get the freight elevator? 
Mr. SIMS. I believe--I'm not positive whether they did or not. 
Mr. BALL. And where did you go from there? 
Mr. SIMS. Well, we got off on the third floor and there were officers there, so we went all the way up and we started to the seventh floor, actually, and there was officers on every floor as we went up. 
Mr. BALL. And where did you go first? 
Mr. SIMS. Well, we stopped at the second floor, first. 
Mr. BALL. Now, were you on the elevator at that time? 
Mr. SIMS. No, sir--it was full of officers. 
Mr. BALL. Do you know who some of the officers were? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I don't know which ones I can remember, but Lieutenant Revill was there, I believe. 
Mr. BALL. At 2:35, you mentioned two officers. 
Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Revill and Detective Westphal was over there with us. 
Mr. BALL. Are they with homicide? 
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they are with the special service bureau. 
Mr. BALL. What is the special service bureau? 
Mr. SIMS. Well, it's a combination of vice, narcotics, and undercover work. 
Mr. BALL. Now, you got, you said, up to the third floor? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. And where did you go then? 
Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we got off--we stopped at the second floor and went to the third floor and some officer there had a key to a room and we made a hurried search of it and there was a bunch of officers on that floor and we went on to the fourth floor, and I don't know if we got off at the fourth or not, but anyway, we got off at the seventh floor each floor as we passed would have officers on it, and we hadn't been on the seventh floor very long--for just a while until someone hollered that they had found the hulls on the sixth floor, so we went back to the sixth floor. 
Mr. BALL. Someone on the seventh floor told you they had found the hulls? 
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; someone hollered from the sixth floor that the hulls had been found. 
Mr. BALL. And you could hear them? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; you could hear them. 
Mr. BALL. Did you go down the stairway? 
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we went back down the elevator, as well as I remember. 
Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off of the elevator? 
Mr. SIMS. We may have had to climb the stairs from six to seven--I don't remember how high that elevator goes. I know we went back to the sixth floor. 
Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off at the sixth floor?

160

---

Mr. SIMS. We went over to the corner window there. 
Mr. BALL. Which corner? 
Mr. SIMS. It would be the one on Houston and Elm, that corner there--it would be the southeast corner. 
Mr. BALL. It was the southeast corner? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. And what did you see? 
Mr. SIMS. We saw the boxes stacked up about--I don't know--three or four stacks high and found three empty hulls laying there next to the wall of the Elm Street side of the building, the front of the building. 
Mr. BALL. Who was there when you saw them? 
Mr. SIMS. Well, there was two or three officers was there when we got there, and I believe the officer that found them was still there. I have his name here someplace. 
Mr. BALL. Was he a deputy sheriff? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes, he was a deputy sheriff. 
Mr. BALL. And who else--Luke Mooney? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes--there was two or three officers there besides us--I don't know who all. 

[Pat Speer]

1 minute ago, Pat Speer said:

Mr. BALL. When you went in the front door, who was with you? 
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I. 
Mr. BALL. Where did you go? 
Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the elevator. 
Mr. BALL. Which elevator? 
Mr. SIMS. The main passenger elevator. 
Mr. BALL. It was a freight elevator, wasn't it? 
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think the passenger elevator goes to about the third floor and then the freight elevator takes over. 
Mr. BALL. You went up in the passenger elevator in the front of the building? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. And you went as far as it could go, did you? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. What did you do then? 
Mr. SIMS. Then, we caught the freight elevator. 
Mr. BALL. That would be in another part of the building? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I think it's on the north end of the building. 
Mr. BALL. Did somebody direct you where to go to get the freight elevator? 
Mr. SIMS. I believe--I'm not positive whether they did or not. 
Mr. BALL. And where did you go from there? 
Mr. SIMS. Well, we got off on the third floor and there were officers there, so we went all the way up and we started to the seventh floor, actually, and there was officers on every floor as we went up. 
Mr. BALL. And where did you go first? 
Mr. SIMS. Well, we stopped at the second floor, first. 
Mr. BALL. Now, were you on the elevator at that time? 
Mr. SIMS. No, sir--it was full of officers. 
Mr. BALL. Do you know who some of the officers were? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I don't know which ones I can remember, but Lieutenant Revill was there, I believe. 
Mr. BALL. At 2:35, you mentioned two officers. 
Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Revill and Detective Westphal was over there with us. 
Mr. BALL. Are they with homicide? 
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they are with the special service bureau. 
Mr. BALL. What is the special service bureau? 
Mr. SIMS. Well, it's a combination of vice, narcotics, and undercover work. 
Mr. BALL. Now, you got, you said, up to the third floor? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. And where did you go then? 
Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we got off--we stopped at the second floor and went to the third floor and some officer there had a key to a room and we made a hurried search of it and there was a bunch of officers on that floor and we went on to the fourth floor, and I don't know if we got off at the fourth or not, but anyway, we got off at the seventh floor each floor as we passed would have officers on it, and we hadn't been on the seventh floor very long--for just a while until someone hollered that they had found the hulls on the sixth floor, so we went back to the sixth floor. 
Mr. BALL. Someone on the seventh floor told you they had found the hulls? 
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; someone hollered from the sixth floor that the hulls had been found. 
Mr. BALL. And you could hear them? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; you could hear them. 
Mr. BALL. Did you go down the stairway? 
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we went back down the elevator, as well as I remember. 
Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off of the elevator? 
Mr. SIMS. We may have had to climb the stairs from six to seven--I don't remember how high that elevator goes. I know we went back to the sixth floor. 
Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off at the sixth floor?

160

---

Mr. SIMS. We went over to the corner window there. 
Mr. BALL. Which corner? 
Mr. SIMS. It would be the one on Houston and Elm, that corner there--it would be the southeast corner. 
Mr. BALL. It was the southeast corner? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. And what did you see? 
Mr. SIMS. We saw the boxes stacked up about--I don't know--three or four stacks high and found three empty hulls laying there next to the wall of the Elm Street side of the building, the front of the building. 
Mr. BALL. Who was there when you saw them? 
Mr. SIMS. Well, there was two or three officers was there when we got there, and I believe the officer that found them was still there. I have his name here someplace. 
Mr. BALL. Was he a deputy sheriff? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes, he was a deputy sheriff. 
Mr. BALL. And who else--Luke Mooney? 
Mr. SIMS. Yes--there was two or three officers there besides us--I don't know who all. 

I read this as they came in when Mooney yelled out but that they didn't hear him, and that they only came over to the sn after stopping off on a number of other floors and hearing Hill yell out. 

[Donald Willis]

10 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I read this as they came in when Mooney yelled out but that they didn't hear him, and that they only came over to the sn after stopping off on a number of other floors and hearing Hill yell out. 

The only problem with this is that Hill ties his shout so closely with the discovery of the shells:   "We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, 'Here it is!'...On the floor near the baseboard... were three spent shells... At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene... and I went over still further west to another window... and yelled down to the street..."

The time gap between discovery and Hill shout here is, according to Hill, maybe a minute or two.  And yet Sims & Boyd have their party (including Fritz) visit several floors--after entering the building at 12:58--before the discovery of the shells and Hill's shout.   DPD can't have it both ways:  Hill shouting about 12:59 and Hill shouting about 1:15. 

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

The only problem with this is that Hill ties his shout so closely with the discovery of the shells:   "We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, 'Here it is!'...On the floor near the baseboard... were three spent shells... At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene... and I went over still further west to another window... and yelled down to the street..."

The time gap between discovery and Hill shout here is, according to Hill, maybe a minute or two.  And yet Sims & Boyd have their party (including Fritz) visit several floors--after entering the building at 12:58--before the discovery of the shells and Hill's shout.   DPD can't have it both ways:  Hill shouting about 12:59 and Hill shouting about 1:15. 

Yeah, you're right. The yelling heard by Fritz was not someone yelling down to the street, but someone yelling within the building for him to come over. 

From Chapter 4e:

Mr. FRITZ. We started at the bottom; yes, sir. And, of course, and I think we went up probably to the top. Different people would call me when they would find something that looked like something I should know about and I ran back and forth from floor to floor as we were searching, and it wasn't very long until someone called me and told me they wanted me to come to the front window, the corner window, they had found some empty cartridges.

And here are some quotes from Mooney indicating he had to wait awhile before Fritz came over. 

From The Day Kennedy was Shot (a book for which Mooney had been interviewed):

"Mooney kept the other policeman away from the area. In time, Fritz arrived. The Crime Laboratory, a mobile unit, had been summoned from headquarters on Main Street. The deputy sheriff was excited. Having made his find, he observed everything. The pile of boxes was high enough to serve as a private screen against prying eyes from anywhere on the sixth floor. The small boxes which had been placed inside, on the floor, were just high enough, with the window one third open, to serve as an assassin's roost. A man could sit on the one nearest the heating pipes, while resting the gun on the one near the window., and looking diagonally down Elm Street toward the overpass. He would have an open, commanding view everywhere except as the motorcade passed the broad tree below. The only open space in the tree was furnished by the "V" of two main branches. Mooney was still dwelling on the subject when ranking officers and their entourages descended on him."

From notes by an HSCA Investigator on an 11-5-77 interview of Mooney): 

"He leaned out a window and yelled down to Sheriff Decker (Bill) and Capt. Fritz (Will) to send up the Crime Lab. A little later Capt. Fritz arrived and he turned the scene over to him for further investigation and processing."

[Donald Willis]

On 12/5/2023 at 11:24 AM, Pat Speer said:

Yeah, you're right. The yelling heard by Fritz was not someone yelling down to the street, but someone yelling within the building for him to come over. 

From Chapter 4e:

Mr. FRITZ. We started at the bottom; yes, sir. And, of course, and I think we went up probably to the top. Different people would call me when they would find something that looked like something I should know about and I ran back and forth from floor to floor as we were searching, and it wasn't very long until someone called me and told me they wanted me to come to the front window, the corner window, they had found some empty cartridges.

And here are some quotes from Mooney indicating he had to wait awhile before Fritz came over. 

From The Day Kennedy was Shot (a book for which Mooney had been interviewed):

"Mooney kept the other policeman away from the area. In time, Fritz arrived. The Crime Laboratory, a mobile unit, had been summoned from headquarters on Main Street. The deputy sheriff was excited. Having made his find, he observed everything. The pile of boxes was high enough to serve as a private screen against prying eyes from anywhere on the sixth floor. The small boxes which had been placed inside, on the floor, were just high enough, with the window one third open, to serve as an assassin's roost. A man could sit on the one nearest the heating pipes, while resting the gun on the one near the window., and looking diagonally down Elm Street toward the overpass. He would have an open, commanding view everywhere except as the motorcade passed the broad tree below. The only open space in the tree was furnished by the "V" of two main branches. Mooney was still dwelling on the subject when ranking officers and their entourages descended on him."

From notes by an HSCA Investigator on an 11-5-77 interview of Mooney): 

"He leaned out a window and yelled down to Sheriff Decker (Bill) and Capt. Fritz (Will) to send up the Crime Lab. A little later Capt. Fritz arrived and he turned the scene over to him for further investigation and processing."

Good point.  Fritz was talking about someone yelling inside the building to others in the building, not yelling out a window.  And this last quote echoes Mooney in his 11/23/63 report, which is part of a post I'll begin right now...

[Donald Willis]

2 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

Good point.  Fritz was talking about someone yelling inside the building to others in the building, not yelling out a window.  And this last quote echoes Mooney in his 11/23/63 report, which is part of a post I'll begin right now...

It's taking longer than I thought.  I began it, but haven't finished it yet...

[Donald Willis]

19 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

It's taking longer than I thought.  I began it, but haven't finished it yet...

Much longer than I thought.  I thought it would be the work of 20 minutes.  I see it has now been 19 hours.  But I came across something entirely unexpected when coordinating the testimonies of Hill & Sawyer, and it will all have to go  under a new topic I think.  And soon, I hope!

[Donald Willis]

22 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

Much longer than I thought.  I thought it would be the work of 20 minutes.  I see it has now been 19 hours.  But I came across something entirely unexpected when coordinating the testimonies of Hill & Sawyer, and it will all have to go  under a new topic I think.  And soon, I hope!

Today, I think...

[Tony Krome]

Edwards walking to the steps of the TSBD reporting on the man he saw in the SN